Israel/Palestine - The ongoing Israeli genocide in Gaza - ICJ Orders Halt to Israeli Offensive on Rafah - See Staff Posts for Posting Guidelines

MetalGearZed · Oct 17, 2023

It is very disappointing to see the WH and Dems just go "Well, Israel is our ally" and throw their hands up, giving Bibi's terrible govt endless benefits of the doubt.

Sen. Murphy (CT), who I am generally fond of, was just on CNN telling Blitzer how Israel's word was good enough for him, in regards to the hospital explosion. And that they should only come forward with evidence of their supposed innocence to appease "Israel skeptics"

bruhaha · Oct 17, 2023

View: https://twitter.com/jengriffinfnc/status/1714410185555362045

Really hoping that things do not escalate and especially do not pull US troops into the conflict. More innocent people will die.

Typhon · Oct 17, 2023

Jerm411 said:
This is why I'm shocked Biden is still going…outside of the optics, like this is spiraling out of control at an alarming rate and I'm surprised his staff or the secret service haven't told him yeah no way.

If anything, it's why he has to go, it maybe the last opportunity before there's no stopping this thing from blowing up.

m_shortpants · Oct 17, 2023

Not really surprised that the military that regularly uses propaganda and has online handbooks for obfuscating online discussions will come up with enough counter-evidence to give the whole thing some level of plausibility

Chirotera · Oct 17, 2023

Nothing confirmed, but things are not looking great for the US embassy in Beirut. Need an official source though.

Brazil · Oct 17, 2023

I have no idea how you guys can manage to type coherent posts in this thread right now.

Jesus fucking Christ, Israel.

Zeliard · Oct 17, 2023

Me Again said:
It's called the "fog of war" for a reason. Knowing you are getting accurate real time information during a conflict is always exceedingly difficult.

But it's almost besides the point, because people just won't care. Consider the notion that Israel is unambiguously pointed out as the perpetrator here, with this hospital attack.

What changes? We would just get the human shields argument propped out again; if it isn't blamed on Palestinians directly it's done so with a clever side swipe, that they're "human shields" and as a result are proper subjects for massacre.

This entire investigation seems to be almost beside the point because nobody holds Israel to any responsibility anyway. If it's a war crime, they either didn't do it or they did it… but human shields or something. Human shields.

Let's keep massacring the human beings we're also actively subjugating and then act very surprised when they violently retaliate.

UberTag · Oct 17, 2023

M.Bluth said:
So they got some of their mustarabin into a recording booth, I see...

Kinda bummed they're only going with the audio evidence of the conspirators conveniently confessing to their crimes and being caught on tape. I was hoping they'd have contracted with some VFX studio to cook up something convincing for them. They could really use the work with SAG-AFTRA still out on the picket lines.

Doomguy Fieri said:
They don't even bother with good lies. One side has been leveling buildings in Gaza for a week with the most advanced air force US money can buy. The other side lobs roman candles at settler bungalows. Gee, I wonder which one is more likely to have completely obliterated a hospital in Gaza.

Deleted member 13330 · Oct 17, 2023

Zeliard said:
But it's almost besides the point, because people just won't care. Consider the notion that Israel is unambiguously pointed out as the perpetrator here, with this hospital attack.

What changes? We would just get the human shields argument propped out again; if it isn't blamed on Palestinians directly it's done so with a clever side swipe, that they're "human shields" and as a result are proper subjects for massacre.

This entire investigation seems to be almost beside the point because nobody holds Israel to any responsibility anyway. If it's a war crime, they either didn't do it or they did it… but human shields or something. Human shields.

Let's keep massacring the human beings we're also actively subjugating and then act very surprised when they violently retaliate.

I mean, the truth is never besides the point. It's just unfortunate not everyone feels that way.

BossAttack · Oct 17, 2023

Jerm411 said:
This is why I'm shocked Biden is still going…outside of the optics, like this is spiraling out of control at an alarming rate and I'm surprised his staff or the secret service haven't told him yeah no way.

That's why Biden is going, to somehow desecalate the situation. The hospital strike only shows how badly US leadership and pressure is needed to stop this conflict from going further.

loco · Oct 17, 2023

I don't understand why Biden physically having to be.in Israel makes a difference. Anything he says can be done from a zoom call

Iztok · Oct 17, 2023

"BREAKING: Iran's president vows 'harsh response' over what happened to Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital"

is this for real, I can't find sources

Jerm411 · Oct 17, 2023

BossAttack said:
That's why Biden is going, to somehow desecalate the situation. The hospital strike only shows how badly US leadership and pressure is needed to stop this conflict from going further.

I get it but holy shit, I don't know that he can….I don't know that anything can.

I promise I'm not trying to doommonger, this entire thing is at the tipping point thing I'm afraid.

VibrantStorm · Oct 17, 2023

bruhaha said:
View: https://twitter.com/jengriffinfnc/status/1714410185555362045

Really hoping that things do not escalate and especially do not pull US troops into the conflict. More innocent people will die.

it wont, Us is used to having its embassy's attacked almost weekly in the middle east. This wont push them to involve us troops

Rosebud · Oct 17, 2023

Jerm411 said:
I get it but holy shit, I don't know that he can….I don't know that anything can.

I promise I'm not trying to doommonger, this entire thing is at the tipping point thing I'm afraid.

He absolutely can if he stops supporting Israel. He won't because that would cost tons of votes

Lionheart · Oct 17, 2023

Israel is entering its final form, straight up lying about its attacks

Micael · Oct 17, 2023

Jerm411 said:
This is why I'm shocked Biden is still going…outside of the optics, like this is spiraling out of control at an alarming rate and I'm surprised his staff or the secret service haven't told him yeah no way.

He isn't in any real danger, Israel is one of the strongest, if not the strongest military power in the region, the US has a base there, Hamas is hardly capable of meaningfully penetrate the iron dome (without a surprise attack), much less accurately target someone there, the US has military personnel in Israel, and obviously wherever he goes he hardly goes unprotected.
Despite what recent events might make it seem, Israel on the Israeli side is a fairly safe place.

pulsemyne · Oct 17, 2023

Lowrys said:
What about the high-velocity sound?

Ah now that is an interesting one. The sound proves that it is something powered, so that rules out something like a Jdam dropped from a plane. We do see from the Al Jazeera footage that something happens to a rocket that is fired a few seconds before the hospital is hit. The rocket doesn't explode in flight, it appears that something does break on it, most likely part of the rocket motor or the casing. That could cause the rocket to fall and that would happen quite quickly and make some sound, especially if something like the rocket motor is still working.
This is just me theorising about it though. I could be completely wrong. The problem is you have so little information to go on. We have a sound and an explosion. They indicate something under power hit the area. It is either a malfunctioning rocket or an attack by an Israeli plane. We do know a rocket appeared to malfuction. But we could just be seeing something happening that is unrelated to the explosion.
Seeing the damage to the building will be the key to understanding just what happened.

DiegoPaulino · Oct 17, 2023

Evacuation order 'impossible to carry out'

Al-Ahli Arab Hospital was operational, with patients, health and caregivers, and internally displaced people sheltering there, WHO said in a statement.

It was one of 20 hospitals in the north of the Gaza Strip facing evacuation orders from the Israeli military.

"The order for evacuation has been impossible to carry out given the current insecurity, critical condition of many patients, and lack of ambulances, staff, health system bed capacity, and alternative shelter for those displaced," WHO said.

The UN agency appealed for the immediate active protection of civilians and healthcare. "Evacuation orders must be reversed. International humanitarian law must be abided by, which means health care must be actively protected and never targeted."

UN condemns deadly strike on Gaza hospital, as warring sides blame each other

Jerm411 · Oct 17, 2023

Micael said:
He isn't in any real danger, Israel is one of the strongest, if not the strongest military power in the region, the US has a base there, Hamas is hardly capable of meaningfully penetrate the iron dome (without a surprise attack), much less accurately target someone there, the US has military personnel in Israel, and obviously wherever he goes he hardly goes unprotected.
Despite what recent events might make it seem, Israel on the Israeli side is a fairly safe place.

Very good points….I'm probably overreacting, I don't know, just feel awful….😞

GusBus · Oct 17, 2023

UberTag said:
Kinda bummed they're only going with the audio evidence of the conspirators conveniently confessing to their crimes and being caught on tape. I was hoping they'd have contracted with some VFX studio to cook up something convincing for them. They could really use the work with SAG-AFTRA still out on the picket lines.

Seriously. I do not understand how this thread has devolved completely into armchair analysis, speculation, and ad-hominem attacks. The situation is absolutely tragic; all the more reason we should allow the facts to surface before drawing conclusions.

shinobi602 · Oct 17, 2023

View: https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1714283874526679147?t=xfBBsHJfHSyGncUL2Mfkdg&s=19

The Citizen Kane of Games · Oct 17, 2023

pulsemyne said:
First things first. We don't know how badly damaged the hospital is until we see it in daylight. From the video we have seen taken in the night it has not been leveled, but we have only seen some of it. Secondly, hamas rockets tend to be quite small explosively but they do carry quite a bit of fuel in order to reach parts of Israel so an explosion after take off can be pretty large.
The key will be seeing the impact sight becuase that will tell you how large the explosion was and if it was fuel heavy.

So, the only way any of these claims can be correct is if the WaPo footage is fake.

AshenOne · Oct 17, 2023

BossAttack said:
That's why Biden is going, to somehow de-esecalate the situation. The hospital strike only shows how badly US leadership and pressure is needed to stop this conflict from going further.

Then why Is the US sending troops to Israel even if the 'reason' is defense? Sending American troops to defend isn't exactly going to de-escalate when none of the Surrounding countries so far are throwing their own armies/troops into Israel or Gaza.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/politics/us-marines-pentagon-israel/index.html

VibrantStorm · Oct 17, 2023

Iztok said:
"BREAKING: Iran's president vows 'harsh response' over what happened to Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital"

is this for real, I can't find sources

where are you reading this?

Micael said:
He isn't in any real danger, Israel is one of the strongest, if not the strongest military power in the region, the US has a base there, Hamas is hardly capable of meaningfully penetrate the iron dome (without a surprise attack), much less accurately target someone there, the US has military personnel in Israel, and obviously wherever he goes he hardly goes unprotected.
Despite what recent events might make it seem, Israel on the Israeli side is a fairly safe place.

Also, nobody will dare to attack the president of the united states. they will get annihilated if they do and everyone knows this.

Deleted member 61531 · Oct 17, 2023

Jerm411 said:
I get it but holy shit, I don't know that he can….I don't know that anything can.

I promise I'm not trying to doommonger, this entire thing is at the tipping point thing I'm afraid.

Biden's whole "superpower" has been schmoozing. I'm not trying to be glib or dismissive...many politicians have testified to his ability to just be in a space with someone and connect on a human level to bring about some compromise or movement or whatever.

I'm not saying it will be successful, nor am I saying Netenyahu deserves anything like a hug and a kind ear, but I would be very surprised if Biden's team didn't think that this is the most promising approach they have right now.

Netherscourge · Oct 17, 2023

Typhon said:
If anything, it's why he has to go, it maybe the last opportunity before there's no stopping this thing from blowing up.

Biden's first response to everything was undisputed support for Israel, which questions his credibility at any table discussing a solution.

Unless he does a complete 180 and calls for a ceasefire, the disarmament of the IDF, and Netanyahu's resignation, his appearance is irrelevant other than showing support for genocide.

Biden has been a disappointment to say the least. He's been almost completely one-sided until the last 48 hours, which is a tad bit late for all the dead Gazans.

dude · Oct 17, 2023

Hmmmmm Ok, there a video from a Nursery in southern Israel that makes it indeed seem like a misfired rocket. Obviously we don't know if the time align etc.
It's all very weird, but I'm leaning towards "waiting for more details" rather than saying it's an IAF strikes.

I'm not sure if it's fine to post N12 journalists from Twitter here, so I won't post it, but I'm guessing anyone can find it by searching for "Ben Ben Nursery" .

JABEE · Oct 17, 2023

I can't believe people are actually entertaining the IDF's lies.

Coyote Starrk · Oct 17, 2023

Can't find an official source reporting on it yet, but the videos and pictures out of Beirut from the French and US Embassies are.....not great.

Could get out of hand REAL quick.

Iztok · Oct 17, 2023

VibrantStorm said:
where are you reading this?

Somebody just pasted it into a discord I'm following, I asked and apparently it's a tweet, so nevermind I guess.

danm999 · Oct 17, 2023

Jerm411 said:
This is why I'm shocked Biden is still going…outside of the optics, like this is spiraling out of control at an alarming rate and I'm surprised his staff or the secret service haven't told him yeah no way.

I guess he has no choice after he spent most of last week giving Israel the green light to do whatever it wanted.

They've sobered up and realise Israel has very little idea of what it's doing at the moment apart from retaliatory violence and things can get much worse.

bruhaha · Oct 17, 2023

VibrantStorm said:
it wont, Us is used to having its embassy's attacked almost weekly in the middle east. This wont push them to involve us troops

If it's just people throwing rocks and starting fires, no. If it escalates where security is compromised, it could be bad. US history is littered with events occurring at embassies and I imagine there's a tendency to overreact to prevent something politically embarrassing from happening.

Micael · Oct 17, 2023

VibrantStorm said:
Also, nobody will dare to attack the president of the united states. they will get annihilated if they do and everyone knows this.

Well, wouldn't exactly go that far, I mean Hamas knew they would get heavily bombed by Israel, and they did this attack anyway, Bin Laden certainly knew the US would respond quite severely, and he planned out the 9/11 attacks anyway, terrorist organizations continually do actions which they know will lead to a completely disproportional response, they even count on it.

That being said, yes, no state actor would attack the leader of the largest military power in the world which is also a nuclear state, while that person is also inside another nuclear state, much like no state actor is realistically going to directly attack Israel.

VibrantStorm · Oct 17, 2023

Iztok said:
Somebody just pasted it into a discord I'm following, I asked and apparently it's a tweet, so nevermind I guess.

As an Iranian I have heard nothing from my family over there. Iran is mostly talking big right now, but I don't expect them to get involved directly in any shape or form.

Deleted member 13330 · Oct 17, 2023

AshenOne said:
Then why Is the US sending troops to Israel even if the 'reason' is defense? Sending American troops to defend isn't exactly going to de-escalate when none of the Surrounding countries so far are throwing their own armies/troops into Israel or Gaza.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/politics/us-marines-pentagon-israel/index.html

They will be on a ship in the Mediterranean as a deterrence, same reason the carrier groups are. The troops are not supposed to land in Israel, though the Pentagon does need to develop plans for all contingencies, including if they are needed for humanitarian reasons.

The Citizen Kane of Games · Oct 17, 2023

danm999 said:
They've sobered up and realise Israel has very little idea of what it's doing at the moment apart from retaliatory violence and things can get much worse.

To secure the safety of the hostages they cut off water, food, electricity and aid. And also excessively bombed the place where they are being held.

B-Dubs · Oct 17, 2023

Official Staff Communication

Once again: random social media posts are not a source. Clout chasers with patreons are not a source. Podcasters are not a source. If they are not doing their own reporting, with a newsdesk behind them to fact check, do not even consider posting them.

Given the sheer amount of misinformation out there, DO NOT post things from internet randos.

Mivey · Oct 17, 2023

dude said:
Hmmmmm Ok, there a video from a Nursery in southern Israel that makes it indeed seem like a misfired rocket. Obviously we don't know if the time align etc.
It's all very weird, but I'm leaning towards "waiting for more details" rather than saying it's an IAF strikes.

I'm not sure if it's fine to post N12 journalists from Twitter here, so I won't post it, but I'm guessing anyone can find it by searching for "Ben Ben Nursery" .

The problem with the rocket misfiring explanation is that it doesn't fit the explosive power that makeshift Hamas or PIJ armaments have. It wouldn't virtually level a large hospital, not from a single strike. I have not seen any serious attempt to explain that key issue

a guided missile fits the recorded footage quite well, just some questions about a shrill noise. Thr IDF terrible track record in lyng about their operations like the murder of journalists doesn't help here and I don't think they would shy away from manipulating any footage they can.

The larger question is how this attack will be received in neighbouring countries. I don't think it will change much in terms of Western support. Brown lives mean little to people here in Europe or in the US.

Coyote Starrk · Oct 17, 2023

Me Again said:
They will be on a ship in the Mediterranean as a deterrence, same reason the carrier groups are. The troops are not planning on landing in Israel, though the Pentagon does need to develop plans for all contingencies.

Yeah hopefully the US already has a plan in place for what to do if the situation devolves even further with an outside force moving in on Israel.

Trup1aya · Oct 17, 2023

Goddamn the cognitive dissonance required to argue that this is anything other than Israel's most egregious war crime yet…

bruhaha · Oct 17, 2023

Biden's statement does not take a side.

President Biden: "I am outraged and deeply saddened by the explosion at the Al Ahli Arab hospital in Gaza, and the terrible loss of life that resulted. Immediately upon hearing this news, I spoke with King Abdullah II of Jordan, and Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel and have directed my national security team to continue gathering information about what exactly happened. The United States stands unequivocally for the protection of civilian life during conflict and we mourn the patients, medical staff and other innocents killed or wounded in this tragedy."

View: https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1714419331654881741

HeavenlyE · Oct 17, 2023

dude said:
Hmmmmm Ok, there a video from a Nursery in southern Israel that makes it indeed seem like a misfired rocket. Obviously we don't know if the time align etc.
It's all very weird, but I'm leaning towards "waiting for more details" rather than saying it's an IAF strikes.

I'm not sure if it's fine to post N12 journalists from Twitter here, so I won't post it, but I'm guessing anyone can find it by searching for "Ben Ben Nursery" .

Honestly expecting things to escalate then it being revealed that it was a PIJ rocket and it was an accident

There seems to be video of the incident but people are still saying never to believe IDF lies while the biggest proof against them seems to be claims that the explosion is too big to be a PIJ rocket

Coyote Starrk · Oct 17, 2023

bruhaha said:
Biden's statement does not take a side.

View: https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1714419331654881741

Yeah that's all you will get out of any US official until they get confirmation on what happened. It's too volatile a topic to shoot from the hip on.

Jonnax · Oct 17, 2023

The Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas, confirmed he would not be meeting Joe Biden in Amman, adding that any talks about anything else rather than stopping the war is unacceptable.

Abbas said targeting the Al-Ahli Arabi Baptist hospital in Gaza was a "hideous war massacre" that cannot be tolerated, Reuters reported. a
He Added:
Israel has crossed all red lines ... We will not leave nor allow anyone to expel us from there.

The Gaza health ministry, which is run by Hamas, has claimed that an Israeli airstrike on the hospital killed hundreds of people. The Israeli military has denied responsibility, suggesting the hospital was hit by a rocket barrage launched by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad militant group. Islamic Jihad also denied responsibility.

Israel-Hamas war live: hundreds feared dead in Gaza hospital blast; Biden cancels Jordan visit

Hundreds believed injured at Al-Ahli Arabi Baptist hospital in Gaza City; US president to meet Netanyahu in Israel on Wednesday

www.theguardian.com

ADS · Oct 17, 2023

bruhaha said:
View: https://twitter.com/jengriffinfnc/status/1714410185555362045

Really hoping that things do not escalate and especially do not pull US troops into the conflict. More innocent people will die.

This isn't true. Please stop linking misinformation in this thread, I implore you.

Deleted member 13330 · Oct 17, 2023

Coyote Starrk said:
Yeah that's all you will get out of any US official until they get confirmation on what happened. It's too volatile a topic to shoot from the hip on.

It's a whatever statement at this point. We all know it was Israel, but yeah, we don't know. Hopefully that will change soon.

dude · Oct 17, 2023

Mivey said:
The problem with the rocket misfiring explanation is that it doesn't fit the explosive power that makeshift Hamas or PIJ armaments have. It wouldn't virtually level a large hospital, not from a single strike. I have not seen any serious attempt to explain that key issue

a guided missile fits the recorded footage quite well, just some questions about a shrill noise. Thr IDF terrible track record in lyng about their operations like the murder of journalists doesn't help here and I don't think they would shy away from manipulating any footage they can.

The larger question is how this attack will be received in neighbouring countries. I don't think it will change much in terms of Western support. Brown lives mean little to people here in Europe or in the US.

I agree the IDF has a terrible track record - which is why my first instinct was that they're lying.
But, the footage does not fit a guided missile at all IMO. But, The explosion is very big, I have no idea why (I read several theories online already, but honestly I'm not sure.)
This is why I'm going with "waiting for more details".

bruhaha · Oct 17, 2023

Coyote Starrk said:
Yeah that's all you will get out of any US official until they get confirmation on what happened. It's too volatile a topic to shoot from the hip on.

Well you have Senators and members of congress definitely taking sides already. And people on here were very sure that Biden would take Israel's side.

M.Bluth · Oct 17, 2023

bruhaha said:
Biden's statement does not take a side.

View: https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1714419331654881741

Shameful. Disgusting. Predictable.

Israel/Palestine - The ongoing Israeli genocide in Gaza - ICJ Orders Halt to Israeli Offensive on Rafah - See Staff Posts for Posting Guidelines

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