UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
www.insider.com

George R.R. Martin flew to New York to 'beg' an HBO executive to make 'Game of Thrones' 10 seasons long, according to his agent

In a new book about HBO titled "Tinderbox," the journalist James Andrew Miller uncovered details about how the "Game of Thrones" finale came to be.

Article is in the link but it's based on a upcoming book

  • Haas said Martin flew to New York to meet with an HBO exec and "beg him" make the show 10 seasons.
"Dan and Dave were tired, rightfully so," Haas said in Miller's book. "They were done, and wanted to move on, so they cut it short and then negotiations became, how many seasons can we stretch this out? Because of course HBO wanted more."

Haas added: "George loves Dan and Dave, but after season five, he did start to worry about the path they were going because George knows where the story goes. He started saying, 'You're not following my template.'"


Welp, moral of the story for HBO was I guess to listen to GRRM and financial common sense (you don't prematurely end a show that is peaking as a global phenomenon). And great job with that Star Wars trilogy D&D, next time maybe don't tank the show you're working for another project which then gets yanked away from you because you tanked the thing you got hired for in the first place.
 

Saifu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,952
Just remake the show as an animated series.
Following the books closely.
 
Apr 21, 2018
6,969
If Dave and Dan were tired, was it so inconceivable to, you know, hire some other writers?

I mean, they had a huge hit show. It just strikes me as odd they cut it short because the writers were tired. I mean....c'mon.
 
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UltraMagnus

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Was it so inconceivable to, you know, hire some other writers?

They should have told D&D to move on and let Corgman take over the show, but I think D&D's ego was too big that they simultaenously wanted to move on, but couldn't let someone else take over, so they did the worst possible compromise of tanking the show for their schedule's sake.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
You know, write a book, we'll judge your ending based on the show until then. I'll assume the book ending will suck as much.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,351
Listened to a couple interviews with the author of the book, which is about the history of HBO, and there's a lot of interesting media stuff in there. Check out Bill SImmon's interview with him from last Friday and Peter Kafka's from last month. I'll get both links shortly.

podcasts.apple.com

‎Recode Media with Peter Kafka: The inside story of HBO, with Jim Miller on Apple Podcasts

‎Show Recode Media with Peter Kafka, Ep The inside story of HBO, with Jim Miller - Nov 17, 2021

(sorry APple Podcasts link, just google "Recode Inside Story HBO" for your preferred podcast app)

www.theringer.com

Pats-Eagles Super Bowl Plans and Thanksgiving Picks With Peter Schrager

Plus: Author James Andrew Miller joins the show to discuss his new book on the history of HBO, ‘Tinderbox: HBO’s Ruthless Pursuit of New Frontiers’

Book breaks some pretty uncovered things too, like James Gandolfini's addiction problems which ultimately boiled over to an intervention after he had to no-show an award show and Michael Imperioli had to stand in for him last minute because he was fucked up (that in and of itself could be a Sopranos episode). This is mentioned in Bill Simmons' interview, while Peter Kafka focuses more on the business of AOL TimeWarner -> AT&T, and the issues HBO has had throughout the years.

Other details that I remember from the Simmons' interview is that D&D also threatened/wanted to not finish the series with two seasons (the 8 and 6 episode ones), but instead make two feature-length movies to wrap them all up. HBO pushed back and eventually got their way on that, but had to compromise on the shortened seasons.

Another detail w/ The Wire, is that... HBO was going to cancel the wire. Whoever was the head of HBO at the time was basically done with the project. At the time, the Wire wasn't winning awards, it wasn't even a cult hit, it was just kinda -there- and they thought, eh, probably not worth moving on. This might have been at the end of Season 2. David Simon was beside himself and whoever the 2nd in command at HBO was loved the show and got him a long meeting with the exec at the time, David SImon went in, made his case, then they let him make the 3 final seasons of the Wire mostly as is to realize his vision for the show. While it's disappointing that this exec wanted to kill the Wire after Season 2, it's also something that he listened to the creator and then let it continue... Reason being they wanted to keep a relationship with David Simon and worried killing the project would end that relationship (likely would have). I believe this anecdote is in Peter Kafka's interview, but I could be wrong.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
33,057
Atlanta GA
you don't need to have written the books to know the show was shit by season 5 and was gonna run head first into all the narrative problems they had created for it
 

Lump

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,314
If only there was some sort of novelization that GRRM could've produced of later seasons to help ensure that HBO had a proper template to follow
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,556
To those saying GRRM is to blame because he didn't finish the books, I mean, that's true, but it's not the whole thing:

He started saying, 'You're not following my template.'"
Like, duh? These guys didn't just run out of book material, they openly diverged without caring a shit for it. The character assassinations and the idiotic plot holes were 100% on them, not GRRM.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,232
he has no one to blame but himself.

he couldnt keep up with the series, therefore the TV series ran out of material... coincidentally right around season 5 ending.
The thread you're in right now is pointing out that this isn't true. They were tired of doing the show so they started cutting material that they had so they could get done sooner. Even if they had Winds and Spring, they weren't going to introduce a bunch of new characters and subplots because by season 5 they were already telling HBO they wanted to be done at 7 seasons.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
94,026
My favorite tidbit from the whole thing is that the writers that were working with D&D on confederate went on to write The Falcon and Winter Soldier.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,352
They did such a bang up job that show disappeared from the zeitgeist faster than anything. Zero energy or will to touch anything GoT related here.
 

pillowtalk

Member
Oct 10, 2018
2,588
Gonna take a miracle for me to take interest in this IP again. Aside from the drama surrounding the actual production of it all, I mean.
 

Doran

Member
Jun 9, 2018
1,852
Yeah, the changes that began in season 4 took this from being my favorite tv show of all time to the most disappointed I have ever been investing so much of my time and life into something.
 

Rampage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,161
Metro Detriot
Yep this is the way to go once (fucking hopefully) the series is finished in print.

They didn't even bother doing Feast and Dance justice, D&D just didn't give a fuck at that point about following GRRM's template.
This. D&D were only really interested in doing up to the Red Wedding and maybe the Purple wedding from my recollection of their earlier interviews. HBO should have force those two out if they were not going to do beyond seasons 3-4 justice and let another crew take over. Nobody should have let those two have free reign to destroy the series.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,340
This doesn't seem like new info? I feel like there were plenty of interviews from Martin throughout indicating that he was hoping they would go longer. I think he was geninely hoping that things would draw out long enough for him to get Book 6 out the door and maybe even Book 7.

And, as someone alluded to up thread, there is no guarantee that the cast and crew wanted to stay attached that long. Ten seasons is an eternity in the TV world and GoT was an insanely complilcated production that took up a tremendous amount of time. It isn't CSI or Law and Order where characters can easily be written into and out of the show as needed. At some point they were going to start losing cast members.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,351
They should have told D&D to move on and let Corgman take over the show, but I think D&D's ego was too big that they simultaenously wanted to move on, but couldn't let someone else take over, so they did the worst possible compromise of tanking the show for their schedule's sake.

yeah, and realistically beyond their ego, if the show turned out how it did... Like let's say they bring in new writers, but the final seasons are still a turd, then there would always be this sort of "omg I can't believe HBO didn't work out a deal with D&D and let these inferior writers complete the thing..."

I think there's still probably a good chance that any writers who come in after the source material ended might have made turd seasons... ANd there would have always been this "Man, season 6 and 7 are so much worse than season 2 and 3... Imagine what could have been if HBO wasn't stingy!" or something similar.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,918
I assume it was Martins idea to kill the white walkers with Arya coming in off screen.

If that is the case than no amount of details in that scene or the scenes leading up to it could save the series as it was stupid and pointless to begin with.

If they made that up and he had a totally different idea for how to end that conflict than I could give him some slack IF he ever writes the fucking book. But he is never going to do it so I can't take him too seriously.
 

etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,845
I've never seen a property disappear from the collective zeitgeist the way that GoT did after that final season. I was never into the show but like I remember when the final season happened and everyone I know who was into it were completely let down. I think the ending was legitimately franchise killing.
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,837
HBO wanted 10, GRRM wanted 10, fans wanted 10, D&D wanted to get paid and GTFO but not hand it over.

Just remake the show as an animated series.
Following the books closely.

There's a certain animated show on Netflix getting a lot of attention around here for its visual style that I think would make for a great rendition of GoT....
 

Avik-G

alt account
Banned
Jul 27, 2021
849
They did such a bang up job that show disappeared from the zeitgeist faster than anything. Zero energy or will to touch anything GoT related here.

I have never seen a show that popular fall out of the public conversation so fast. People almost forgot it was a thing mere months after the ending. Closest thing I can compare to is Lost.

Compare that with how people still talk about Sopranos and The Wire.

And, as someone alluded to up thread, there is no guarantee that the cast and crew wanted to stay attached that long. Ten seasons is an eternity in the TV world and GoT was an insanely complilcated production that took up a tremendous amount of time. It isn't CSI or Law and Order where characters can easily be written into and out of the show as needed. At some point they were going to start losing cast members.

Maybe. But I would still say most if not all of the cast would have stayed. What else did they have going for them? I have seen one or two of them in "straight to DVD" B tier movies or minor walk on appearances in other shows. Rest are almost completely gone.
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,731
This doesn't seem like new info? I feel like there were plenty of interviews from Martin throughout indicating that he was hoping they would go longer. I think he was geninely hoping that things would draw out long enough for him to get Book 6 out the door and maybe even Book 7.

And, as someone alluded to up thread, there is no guarantee that the cast and crew wanted to stay attached that long. Ten seasons is an eternity in the TV world and GoT was an insanely complilcated production that took up a tremendous amount of time. It isn't CSI or Law and Order where characters can easily be written into and out of the show as needed. At some point they were going to start losing cast members.

He talked about wanting the show to go longer before but this is the first that we hear here that he was actively pushing for it internally, though not surprising.
 

Autumn

Avenger
Apr 1, 2018
6,552
I've never seen a property disappear from the collective zeitgeist the way that GoT did after that final season. I was never into the show but like I remember when the final season happened and everyone I know who was into it were completely let down. I think the ending was legitimately franchise killing.
The original work needs to be loved in order for the rest of the works to falter. Just look at Harry Potter and Star Wars. GOT was never given a chance.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,352
My favorite tidbit from the whole thing is that the writers that were working with D&D on confederate went on to write The Falcon and Winter Soldier.
This is wild. I'm still pleasantly surprised that shit never got made and they didn't keep Scott Bucking their way from terrible project to terrible project. For a hot minute a few years back, all these creators seemed to very ostensibly keep failing upward. Hell, I couldn't tell you what shit Loeb is shoveling these days.

I guess it's less ostensible nowadays.
 

Strax

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,302
What I've never understood is why D&D didn't just leave the show. They didn't want to do it anymore and HBO wanted more seasons, seems like a win-win.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
I assume it was Martins idea to kill the white walkers with Arya coming in off screen.

If that is the case than no amount of details in that scene or the scenes leading up to it could save the series as it was stupid and pointless to begin with.

If they made that up and he had a totally different idea for how to end that conflict than I could give him some slack IF he ever writes the fucking book. But he is never going to do it so I can't take him too seriously.
Arya killing off Night King makes sense on paper. She had been going through a one-minded revenge spree and intense training with the weird Many Face God Guild about assassinations. It was the execution that was completely botched. Like, she didn't even use her skills from her time with the Guild at all.
 
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UltraMagnus

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
I assume it was Martins idea to kill the white walkers with Arya coming in off screen.

If that is the case than no amount of details in that scene or the scenes leading up to it could save the series as it was stupid and pointless to begin with.

If they made that up and he had a totally different idea for how to end that conflict than I could give him some slack IF he ever writes the fucking book. But he is never going to do it so I can't take him too seriously.

I believe Jon Snow was supposed to be the one who killed the Night King, and Kit Harrington was told this years in advance, but then D&D felt it was too obvious and changed it to Arya, and you can also see Harrington's surprised reaction to Arya being the one who kills the NK at the table read.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,232
And then the animated show outpaces the books and the showrunner has to wait for Martin to finish.
Even if that did happen - which is likely as I expect Spring will never be released by GRRM - at least they would have all of the necessary characters, motivations, and subplots from the books on the board to still finish the story and character arcs the way GRRM intends, rather than some incomprehensible mishmash of show only path and book only destination.

An animated series that includes Lady Stonehart, fAegon, Dorne Plot, Northern Conspiracy, Tysha-actually-matters-to-him Tyrion, book accurate motivations for Varys and Littlefinger, etc, could be much easier to finish even if, ten years from now the books still aren't completed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
I've never seen a property disappear from the collective zeitgeist the way that GoT did after that final season. I was never into the show but like I remember when the final season happened and everyone I know who was into it were completely let down. I think the ending was legitimately franchise killing.

House of the Dragon is going to be very successful
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
61,223
D&D fumbled what could've been an amazing production.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,918
I believe Jon Snow was supposed to be the one who killed the Night King, and Kit Harrington was told this years in advance, but then D&D felt it was too obvious and changed it to Arya, and you can also see Harrington's surprised reaction to Arya being the one who kills the NK at the table read.
That's makes a lot more sense and if that is true than they did fuck it up.

I hope that version also invokes something more elaborate than another off screen surprise killing too.
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,561
The Stussining
yeah in season 5 it's when the show clearly starts diverging much more prominently from the books compared to Previous seasons. Before then a handful of storylines or characters would either be removed or changed when adapted into television. In 5 from what I remember stuff would be radically shuffled and rearranged to avoid adding any new characters to the story. While also stretching out certain story beats to make sure some characters got to appear frequently over the course of the season.

just a complete mess sigh. And don't even get me started on D&D's need to write "shocking" twists and turns into the seasons.
 
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UltraMagnus

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
What I've never understood is why D&D didn't just leave the show. They didn't want to do it anymore and HBO wanted more seasons, seems like a win-win.

In a word: ego. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to be able to say they saw through this whole epic journey and since they started it, only they should be able to end it.

Unfortunately for everyone else involved or a fan thereof, it meant tanking the quality of the show.

I think they realize now they made a massive mistake even if they will never openly admit it.