delete12345

One Winged Slayer
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Nov 17, 2017
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Vague dates like "coming soon" or "shipping soon" to lure pre-orders is outlawed in Germany, after a Munich Regional High Court ruling, in which a litigant took reseller MediaMarkt to court over excessive delivery delays. For any retailer to sell a pre-order for a commodity or a digital software license (i.e. take payment before product launch date), the reseller must specify the exact date of on which the product will be delivered. In other words, the onus is on the reseller to specify when a buyer will have the product or digital license in their possession, before making the sale, and ensure that the product reaches the consumer on or before the specified date.

Resellers that are unable to specify a delivery date would be breaking the law by soliciting pre-orders. The new ruling bolsters Germany's consumer rights laws, which are among the strictest in the world. German consumers are already within their rights to return a product they don't like for no reason, within a finite amount of time after the sale. If a retailer delivers later than the specified delivery date, the consumer can refuse the product and become eligible for a full refund. Perhaps the biggest impact of this ruling will fall on the real-estate industry. Real-estate developers taking payments from home-buyers before the completion of the development (i.e. transfer of possession) of a property, must be ready to cough up a full-refund (adjusted by inflation), if the buyer doesn't get possession on the agreed delivery date.

Source: https://www.techpowerup.com/245920/...dates-like-coming-soon-in-marketing-and-sales

I really couldn't find any threads, so feel free to lock me up.

More information (Credit goes to /u/Lksaar): https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comm...bans_vague_dates_like_coming_soon_in/e2eyj94/

Lksaar said:
This was the consumer protection board of the state NRW suing the Media Markt E-Business GmbH.

This current ruling is just the Oberlandesgericht München (Munich Higher Regional Court, abbr. OLG) keeping up the ruling from previous instance (OLG München, 6 U 3815/17 and LG München I, 33 O 20488/16). Mediamarkt is still allowed to ask for a revision, but is not allowed to escalate to a higher instance.

The specific case was Mediamarkt offering a Samsung Galaxy S6 for 499€ in August 2016. While ordering it would tell you multiple times that you would get one as soon as it's available, but wouldn't specify a date.

This is against the law (§ 312d Abs. 1 S. 1 BGB, Art. 246a § 1 Abs. 1 S. 1 Nr. 7 EGBGB), since soon can be whatever. The retailer has to name a generous last date. Per the court ruling this is to allow the (potential already paying) consumer to press charges in cases where it takes arbitrarily long.

I'm not a lawyer, and while I try my best to translate i can't guarantee for it to be 100% correct). Here are the laws in question:

§ 312d Abs. 1 S. 1 BGB

§ 312 Informationspflichten

(1) 1Bei außerhalb von Geschäftsräumen geschlossenen Verträgen und bei Fernabsatzverträgen ist der Unternehmer verpflichtet, den Verbraucher nach Maßgabe des Artikels 246a des Einführungsgesetzes zum Bürgerlichen Gesetzbuche zu informieren. 2Die in Erfüllung dieser Pflicht gemachten Angaben des Unternehmers werden Inhalt des Vertrags, es sei denn, die Vertragsparteien haben ausdrücklich etwas anderes vereinbart.

translated:

§ 312 Duty to provide information
(1) 1In the case of contracts concluded outside business premises and distance contracts, the entrepreneur is obliged to inform the consumer in accordance to Article 246a of the Introductory Act to the German Civil Code. 2The information provided by the Contractor in fulfillment of this obligation shall become part of the contract, unless the contracting parties have expressly agreed otherwise.

Art. 246a § 1 Abs. 1 S. 1 Nr. 7 EGBGB

§ 1 Informationspflichten
(1) Der Unternehmer ist nach § 312d Absatz 1 des Bürgerlichen Gesetzbuchs verpflichtet, dem Verbraucher folgende Informationen zur Verfügung zu stellen:
7. die Zahlungs-, Liefer- und Leistungsbedingungen, den Termin, bis zu dem der Unternehmer die Waren liefern oder die Dienstleistung erbringen muss, und gegebenenfalls das Verfahren des Unternehmers zum Umgang mit Beschwerden,

I picked 7 in particular because it's the one referred to in the ruling and the entire law is quite long. Translated:

§1 Duty to provide information
(1) According to § 312d paragraph 1 of the German Civil Code, the entrepreneur is obliged to provide the consumer with the following information:
7. the terms of payment, delivery and service, the date by which the entrepreneur must deliver the goods or service and, where appropriate, the procedure followed by the entrepreneur to deal with complaints,

Sources (in German):

 

Deleted member 14002

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That's great, more places should do this.

Additionally please make it so you can't advertise pre tax prices.
 

Wulfram

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Mar 3, 2018
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In the UK you generally don't get charged for pre-orders before they ship, anyway. Is it different in Germany?
 

Bessy67

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Oct 29, 2017
12,689
Seems weird. So what are they supposed to say for games that don't have a specific release date yet? Coming eventually?
 

test_account

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Oct 25, 2017
4,659
Seems weird. So what are they supposed to say for games that don't have a specific release date yet? Coming eventually?
I guess they might just have to set some specific date. Like "coming (before) December 2020" or something. Curious to how strict it is, if it has to be the exact date, or if month/year, or even just year is allowed.
 
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delete12345

One Winged Slayer
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Seems weird. So what are they supposed to say for games that don't have a specific release date yet? Coming eventually?
Don't market your game until the developer is finalizing a target date, and guaranteeing they can deliver the game on time. Placeholder dates may have the side effect of "consumers are not expecting the game to come out this year or next year, might as well just don't pay attention to it.", which can derail hype.
 

Kudo

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Oct 25, 2017
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Seems to mention digital sales too, so games with uncertain release date can't be pre-ordered on PSN/XBL/Steam in Germany now?
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
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Oct 26, 2017
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Seems weird. So what are they supposed to say for games that don't have a specific release date yet? Coming eventually?
I think the idea is that you don't take pre-orders for them until you can nail down a date. I don't know how specific the date has to be (e.g whether it's OK to take pre-orders for a game that has a release date of "2019"), but "Soon" or "When It's Done" is not acceptable.
 
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delete12345

One Winged Slayer
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Nov 17, 2017
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This court rules really does affect realty and house construction/management where consumers can or may request a full refund if construction time exceeded delivery dates.

Seems to mention digital sales too, so games with uncertain release date can't be pre-ordered on PSN/XBL/Steam in Germany now?

Seems like it.
 

Wulfram

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,507
Seems weird. So what are they supposed to say for games that don't have a specific release date yet? Coming eventually?

As I understand it, they're fine as long as they don't take your money. Or they can offer a very conservative release date, and at worst have to refund if it goes over
 

Fawz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,811
Montreal
I'd imagine if they announce a target release year at least it allows them to charge people for pre-orders, which makes sense overall. Hope other regions follow suit. Too often the pre-order incentive promotional marketing period for a game starts wayyyyy too early.
 

Kyougar

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Nov 3, 2017
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I mean, there are already Retailers and Online Shops where you only pay upon delivery.
But the (now) illegal practice to charge money for products who have no release date will be a thing of the past.
 

--R

Being sued right now, please help me find a lawyer
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Isn't this more focused on retailers saying a sold out product is coming soon without an exact date instead of a company saying their game is coming soon?
 

Kyougar

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Isn't this more focused on retailers saying a sold out product is coming soon without an exact date instead of a company saying their game is coming soon?

It is for ANYTHING that has no release date but you can Pre-Order.
I mean, one of the examples was: you could refund your house (inflation-adjusted) if it isn't in your possession at the specified date.
 

Briarios

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Oct 25, 2017
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Eh, not a big deal for most retailers in the US -- you can already cancel at any time and get all your money/credit back.

However, it would be nice to be able to cancel digital pre-orders. Sony really needs to up their game there. Some of their digital practices are very anti-consumer.
 

--R

Being sued right now, please help me find a lawyer
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It is for ANYTHING that has no release date but you can Pre-Order.
I mean, one of the examples was: you could refund your house (inflation-adjusted) if it isn't in your possession at the specified date.

But the wording doesn't mention anyone but resellers on it. I doubt this will affect something like CDPR saying Cyberpunk is coming when it's ready.
 

hobblygobbly

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Oct 25, 2017
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That's great, more places should do this.

Additionally please make it so you can't advertise pre tax prices.
All prices in Europe (including other regions) already include VAT for everything including when they are advertised/marketing - it's genuinely the total price you will pay. That was something that really confused me when I visited the U.S, as the price listed in stores didn't include tax for example, only place I ever came across that inconvenient practice.
 

famikon

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Eh, not a big deal for most retailers in the US -- you can already cancel at any time and get all your money/credit back.

However, it would be nice to be able to cancel digital pre-orders. Sony really needs to up their game there. Some of their digital practices are very anti-consumer.
You can cancel digital pre-orders in Europe. I did it several times before.
 

Deleted member 15933

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Maybe the threat title should stress that it's only illegal to open up paid pre-orders for games w/o non-specific release dates.
It is not illegal to announce a game without a date!
 

Soap

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Oct 27, 2017
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What would developers sooner get rid of? Coming Soon or Pre-Order now?

Personally, I think this is fair. Pre-Orders shouldn't be opened up until a date is announced. I can even tolerate a delayed release date. It is really scummy to get people to pre-order on a vague promise of a game.
 

Kyougar

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But the wording doesn't mention anyone but resellers on it. I doubt this will affect something like CDPR saying Cyberpunk is coming when it's ready.

It does if CDPR takes pre-orders of the game and charges you for it.
The legal way would be:
- not take pre-orders
- take pre-orders but only charge when it is ready or you have a definitive release date
- set a specific release-date and take pre-orders.
 

Edge

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The courts says if a game is marketed as "coming soon", it may be possible the game will never come out, and the consumer be bamboozled to wait for a long time.

And that's not the case when they say "Release May 1th 2020" and then cancel it?

What a weird decision, while sticking their sweat tears and money into that, they could have done something against loot boxes but nope, that's what seems important, lol.
 

Kyougar

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And that's not the case when they say "Release May 1th 2020" and then cancel it?

What a weird decision, while sticking their sweat tears and money into that, they could have done something against loot boxes but nope, that's what seems important, lol.


- This was a court case, should they just have ignored someone sue a corporation? What?
- You can cancel the release date, sure, but then, all your German customers can cancel their pre-orders inflation-adjusted.