Nigel Tufnel

Member
Mar 5, 2019
3,439
The very first post in this thread seems to indicate that, without any nuance or qualifiers, that this would be true. Which is why I don't really love a blanket statement that retail theft would simply go away if material conditions were met. Which gets to why this is a complicated issue to try to address.
The best way to get folks to buy into the social contract is to make sure we uphold the social contract for them. Penalizing folks for homelessness, addiction and poverty is a vicious, inhuman, recurring cycle. Sending the goon squad after poors to beat them into submission sends the message that the levers of power in our society are violent and dehumanizing. That's what we teach people caught in the cycle. That's how they experience society. That's the terms on which the contract are made with them.

So yeah, I agree, its incautious and imprecise to definitively state that people who have their needs met don't commit crimes- but its also hardly the most irresponsible thing said in the thread.
 

NullPointer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,414
Mars
Maybe not skeleton-crew staffing some of these places would help.

I remember growing up with grocery stores filled to the brim with employees - cashiers and baggers, butchers and assistants, pharmacists and their assistants, security guards you knew by name, florists, and a manager walking the floor you could easily flag down. These were also jobs that paid the bills. Even for single mothers with three kids.

Now its a scant handful of people trying not to get noticed.

I don't think that's in any way an improvement over what came before, and these memories just bug me more as the years go by. Like, is everything supposed to get worse in the name of efficiencies? Is this supposed to be progress?

Sorry if this is too much of a tangent, but its stuck in my craw.
 

Kaitos

Tens across the board!
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
17,158
The best way to get folks to buy into the social contract is to make sure we uphold the social contract for them. Penalizing folks for homelessness, addiction and poverty is a vicious, inhuman, recurring cycle. Sending the goon squad after poors to beat them into submission sends the message that the levers of power in our society are violent and dehumanizing. That's what we teach people caught in the cycle. That's how they experience society. That's the terms on which the contract are made with them.

So yeah, I agree, its incautious and imprecise to definitively state that people who have their needs met don't commit crimes- but its also hardly the most irresponsible thing said in the thread.
I don't disagree with anything you said. I was simply commenting on a sentiment that appeared early on that flattens the dynamics of why retail theft exists in the first place.
 

Distantmantra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,729
Seattle
I think Oregon is heading this way too

Washington state as well.

I live across the street from a clearing in Seattle that is regularly the site of a large tent encampment that has in the last year resulted in a shooting, two street closures with guns drawn police, five explosions resulting in fires, plus an RV caught fire in front of my house. The field over there is super dry with lots of tall unmowed grass and trees. I think people deserve housing and the solution is not to throw everyone in jail but I also don't like being on edge waiting for the next time that things literally explode across the street. It feels like I'm just supposed to suck it up and deal with it until society decides to improve.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,374
People shouldn't do drugs on public transportation and people who break this rule should be escorted off the transportation.
 

Booshka

Member
May 8, 2018
5,045
Amherst, MA
I don't disagree with anything you said. I was simply commenting on a sentiment that appeared early on that flattens the dynamics of why retail theft exists in the first place.
It's easy to just add the qualifier "in statistically significant terms" to that first post and the message still gets across. I'm sure it's not an ON/OFF switch to that poster.

And under capitalism, rich people are always stealing, it's baked in to the political economy. So under a system where material needs are met by removing the theft of labor value, there won't be rich people. There may still be theft, but at much lower rates, statistically speaking.
 

Lashes.541

Member
Dec 18, 2017
2,115
Roseburg Oregon
People wouldn't mass steal and sell to fences if they had proper living wages and stuff. Just a thought.
I can't speak for California, but I hear it's the same story as Oregon, Washington and Arizona, most are shoplifting to pay for fenty, they spend several hundred of dollars a day on it and get a microscopic amount of it, They can't work, have you seen a fenty addict? People used to say stoners were lazy, they at least could stay awake for more than fifteen seconds. It's the worst drug in the world, and it's by far the most popular in all of the states now.
 

Jerm

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
6,183
Washington state as well.

I live across the street from a clearing in Seattle that is regularly the site of a large tent encampment that has in the last year resulted in a shooting, two street closures with guns drawn police, five explosions resulting in fires, plus an RV caught fire in front of my house. The field over there is super dry with lots of tall unmowed grass and trees. I think people deserve housing and the solution is not to throw everyone in jail but I also don't like being on edge waiting for the next time that things literally explode across the street. It feels like I'm just supposed to suck it up and deal with it until society decides to improve.

Yeah, it's really bad here too. Downtown Portland got hit the worst, but it's affected the entire city and it's going to take a lot to get back to normal. A friend of ours worked at a place called Afuri downtown for six months; windows got smashed weekly, she got robbed twice, she got followed to her car all the time; it sucked to watch her navigate that while she was trying to survive financially.

Neighborhoods can turn into RV parks overnight, and since it's happening at such a large scale, it takes forever to have them moved out, and then they move a quarter mile down the street and start the process all over. You never know when the wrong one that's manufacturing whatever drug inside is going to explode. We get fires and deaths as well. People shitting and masturbating and screaming and pissing in front of children and seniors and the population at large who are just trying to get by in their shitty lives as well.

I know they've started to talk about recriminalizing drugs and I don't disagree with it anymore when it comes to fentanyl. Overdoses have overwhelmed emergency services - I believe we have a team dedicated to overdoses now that alleviates this burden on EMS to a degree. The money it will cost to recriminalize and start cracking down on the fent trade that was allowed to blossom for four years is just going to fall back on taxpayers and probably take a decade to correct. We already pay out the ass so to know there'll be more is disheartening for staying in Portland.

I know my partner and I have no desire to raise kids here due to the fentanyl crisis and the insanity that it's brought to the city. You hear about it, but to experience it is extremely different, and I can understand why some people keep the perspective they do being outside of it. It's unbelievable until you actually see it all in person.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,222
I know they've started to talk about recriminalizing drugs and I don't disagree with it anymore when it comes to fentanyl. Overdoses have overwhelmed emergency services - I believe we have a team dedicated to overdoses now that alleviates this burden on EMS to a degree. The money it will cost to recriminalize and start cracking down on the fent trade that was allowed to blossom for four years is just going to fall back on taxpayers and probably take a decade to correct. We already pay out the ass so to know there'll be more is disheartening for staying in Portland.

Recriminalizing users is not how you crack down on the fentanyl trade. You crack down on it by going after dealers, manufacturers, etc. Recriminalizing users just leads to mass incarceration and not better outcomes.
 

loco

Member
Jan 6, 2021
6,474
Recriminalizing users is not how you crack down on the fentanyl trade. You crack down on it by going after dealers, manufacturers, etc. Recriminalizing users just leads to mass incarceration and not better outcomes.
There's an argument here in San Francisco that the dealers are victims too and tend to be people in the same circumstances as those they sell to. A lot of dealers are users too and the money just fuels their habits
 

Distantmantra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,729
Seattle
Yeah, it's really bad here too. Downtown Portland got hit the worst, but it's affected the entire city and it's going to take a lot to get back to normal. A friend of ours worked at a place called Afuri downtown for six months; windows got smashed weekly, she got robbed twice, she got followed to her car all the time; it sucked to watch her navigate that while she was trying to survive financially.

Neighborhoods can turn into RV parks overnight, and since it's happening at such a large scale, it takes forever to have them moved out, and then they move a quarter mile down the street and start the process all over. You never know when the wrong one that's manufacturing whatever drug inside is going to explode. We get fires and deaths as well. People shitting and masturbating and screaming and pissing in front of children and seniors and the population at large who are just trying to get by in their shitty lives as well.

I know they've started to talk about recriminalizing drugs and I don't disagree with it anymore when it comes to fentanyl. Overdoses have overwhelmed emergency services - I believe we have a team dedicated to overdoses now that alleviates this burden on EMS to a degree. The money it will cost to recriminalize and start cracking down on the fent trade that was allowed to blossom for four years is just going to fall back on taxpayers and probably take a decade to correct. We already pay out the ass so to know there'll be more is disheartening for staying in Portland.

I know my partner and I have no desire to raise kids here due to the fentanyl crisis and the insanity that it's brought to the city. You hear about it, but to experience it is extremely different, and I can understand why some people keep the perspective they do being outside of it. It's unbelievable until you actually see it all in person.

Before Covid we had a tent city organized encampment in our neighborhood and it worked so incredibly well. The residents kept it clean and well run and held each other accountable. Now it's chaos across the street and when I've contacted my city councilperson I get a "we understand your concerns and would appreciate continued patience." I love my house (married father with a 12 year old kid) and my neighborhood and I'm not going anywhere but I'd also not like to constantly be worried about the next time some propane tanks explode causing another brush fire.
 

Distantmantra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,729
Seattle
Y'all can stop with the NIMBY crap for affordable housing.

Build as much as you want, I don't care. My block is already full of apartments, condos, townhouses, section 8 housing and a low income housing tower. My neighborhood hit its density target goals for 2028 two years ago. I'm one of like three single family homes left and I don't mind one bit.
 

Jerm

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
6,183
Recriminalizing users is not how you crack down on the fentanyl trade. You crack down on it by going after dealers, manufacturers, etc. Recriminalizing users just leads to mass incarceration and not better outcomes.

That's fair and I agree to an extent. I honestly have no idea what the approach to correcting the issue is though when re-involving law enforcement, without having an 'in' on users and working up to dealers and manufacturers. I don't really know if they could just start surveilling users to run up the chain, legally; they do fucked up shit all the time by interpreting the law in their own way regardless so who knows. Maybe providing actual protections for users that 'narc' without lying, fucking them over by luring them into confessions, using that at trial, and throwing them in jail/prison once they've moved on to the dealer.

The transfer from law enforcement to health services just hasn't been effective as expected unfortunately, and that seems to be one of the primary arguments for decriminalization. Instead, it blew up into a state of emergency / crisis. I think it's hard for residents to not to feel some way about that when it is directly affecting friends / family / the community at large, daily. And I think that the longer it takes to find an appropriate solution, the more people will be willing to accept harsher solutions that are proposed by people with vested interest in law enforcement and incarceration. I wouldn't even be surprised if this wasn't considered by politicians when voters backed it.

I also don't think solutions should be approached via black-and-white thinking and there are gray approaches that can fix this without criminalizing users, which will make these people permanently lost.

It's genuinely heartbreaking to see the wide range of people that are impacted by fentanyl abuse throughout the US. Before Portland I lived in the rural south and my former classmates were dropping like flies.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,908
People want reform without experiencing any of the pain during the transition stage. The old ways didn't work. So unless folks have a creative solution that shortness the transition stage it's all part of the process.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,045
Gentrified Brooklyn
That's fair and I agree to an extent. I honestly have no idea what the approach to correcting the issue is though when re-involving law enforcement, without having an 'in' on users and working up to dealers and manufacturers. I don't really know if they could just start surveilling users to run up the chain, legally; they do fucked up shit all the time by interpreting the law in their own way regardless so who knows. Maybe providing actual protections for users that 'narc' without lying, fucking them over by luring them into confessions, using that at trial, and throwing them in jail/prison once they've moved on to the dealer.

The transfer from law enforcement to health services just hasn't been effective as expected unfortunately, and that seems to be one of the primary arguments for decriminalization. Instead, it blew up into a state of emergency / crisis. I think it's hard for residents to not to feel some way about that when it is directly affecting friends / family / the community at large, daily. And I think that the longer it takes to find an appropriate solution, the more people will be willing to accept harsher solutions that are proposed by people with vested interest in law enforcement and incarceration. I wouldn't even be surprised if this wasn't considered by politicians when voters backed it.

I also don't think solutions should be approached via black-and-white thinking and there are gray approaches that can fix this without criminalizing users, which will make these people permanently lost.

It's genuinely heartbreaking to see the wide range of people that are impacted by fentanyl abuse throughout the US. Before Portland I lived in the rural south and my former classmates were dropping like flies.

Do we really put money into health services though; clearly not the same as cops.

Ultimately addiction is a disease that's often triggered by mental illness issues and we all know we are terrible in regards to easy and free access to things that would help; its why we got used to people having a bad day and murdering 20 humans on the fly.

Health resources is a fix that will only work over the long term for a long term problem, issue is that resources that can be diverted to make a better outcome five years from now (treatment centers…real centers not for profit schemes, easy access to mental heath-care facilities) are not things you can sell to a populace that feels under attack now (even though people with mental illness issues, addicts, unhoused, etc are usually the victims, not the perpetrators of crime) brainwashed into thinking more and meaner cops = less crime.

We are reaping a opioid addiction kicked off by big pharma in the 00's that we let them slide with a shrug despite media blaming reformist prosecutors, BLM, "scared cops", etc in the current era. It's going to take years to fix. But we really haven't put a good faith effort to fix it, just bandaids on already stressed non-profits or underfunded gov initiatives.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
13,254
Social media and the internet at large have caused these petty crime waves. A lot of kids skipping school who wanna get a quick thousand by selling car items or stolen phones. It's anti social behavior and makes it uncomfortable for people to walk and live freely outside. I don't see why leftists keep ridiculously hand waving it away with corporate wage talk when it SUCKS to not be able to properly live in your city.

It's not just rich people fleeing Oakland. It's a lot of poorer black folks who are fed up with what's happening. People barely scraping by and getting bipped before work. Now they have a surprise $250 bill to fix their windshield. The city needs to do their jobs and there needs to also be immediate solutions that don't require 5 years of housing growth. If we make proper non-carceral solutions to this that work, we don't have to cede this issue to the right.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,203
I think the idea of there being a way to structurally stop crime through long term solutions is a thing people can understand, but if they think (whether correctly or not) that those solutions either aren't being put in place or aren't bringing about more immediate change than a couple of years, people will side with just putting cops in every corner if enough push comes to shove.

Despite any inroads made from 2020 onwards, people will take ineffective authoritarian measures over ineffective or slowly effective peaceful measures
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,313
Social media and the internet at large have caused these petty crime waves. A lot of kids skipping school who wanna get a quick thousand by selling car items or stolen phones. It's anti social behavior and makes it uncomfortable for people to walk and live freely outside. I don't see why leftists keep ridiculously hand waving it away with corporate wage talk when it SUCKS to not be able to properly live in your city.

It's not just rich people fleeing Oakland. It's a lot of poorer black folks who are fed up with what's happening. People barely scraping by and getting bipped before work. Now they have a surprise $250 bill to fix their windshield. The city needs to do their jobs and there needs to also be immediate solutions that don't require 5 years of housing growth. If we make proper non-carceral solutions to this that work, we don't have to cede this issue to the right.
Im ok with more policing. The problem is the police are intentionally doing this in response to not being able terrorize the communities. Ever since George Floyd's protests, The local news in the Bay Area(ABC) started advertising and profiting off Black and Brown people committing petty crimes. I never hear any mention about what the police response or what can be done to prevent it.
 

Nigel Tufnel

Member
Mar 5, 2019
3,439
Do we really put money into health services though; clearly not the same as cops.

Ultimately addiction is a disease that's often triggered by mental illness issues and we all know we are terrible in regards to easy and free access to things that would help; its why we got used to people having a bad day and murdering 20 humans on the fly.

Health resources is a fix that will only work over the long term for a long term problem, issue is that resources that can be diverted to make a better outcome five years from now (treatment centers…real centers not for profit schemes, easy access to mental heath-care facilities) are not things you can sell to a populace that feels under attack now (even though people with mental illness issues, addicts, unhoused, etc are usually the victims, not the perpetrators of crime) brainwashed into thinking more and meaner cops = less crime.

We are reaping a opioid addiction kicked off by big pharma in the 00's that we let them slide with a shrug despite media blaming reformist prosecutors, BLM, "scared cops", etc in the current era. It's going to take years to fix. But we really haven't put a good faith effort to fix it, just bandaids on already stressed non-profits or underfunded gov initiatives.
Just to hammer home the point, California spends roughly 25 billion annually on policing. For most municipalities its the largest single line item expense at 15% of the annual budget. Nailing down the amount of state funds used to help rehabilitate drug users is harder to find, but 52 million nets a bespoke press release from the governor so I think we can presume its a tiny fraction of 25 billion. Nowhere, not even California, is investing in improving safety nets and rehabilitation in a way that is meaningfully proportionate to the need.


www.ppic.org

Law Enforcement Staffing in California

Law enforcement is funded largely at the local level, and almost half of California’s law enforcement officers work for municipal police departments. Staffing levels continued to drop in 2022, though losses vary across agencies.

www.gov.ca.gov

California Invests $52 Million in Opioid Prevention and Treatment | Governor of California

California Continues Statewide Efforts to Combat the Opioid Crisis, Keep California Communities Safe, and Provide Recovery Resources Yesterday, Governor Newsom Proposed New Investments to Reduce…
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,053
If people steal shampoo, deodorant and underwear the solution isn't to be tougher on crime, it's to make people less poor.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,222
Social media and the internet at large have caused these petty crime waves. A lot of kids skipping school who wanna get a quick thousand by selling car items or stolen phones. It's anti social behavior and makes it uncomfortable for people to walk and live freely outside. I don't see why leftists keep ridiculously hand waving it away with corporate wage talk when it SUCKS to not be able to properly live in your city.

It's not just rich people fleeing Oakland. It's a lot of poorer black folks who are fed up with what's happening. People barely scraping by and getting bipped before work. Now they have a surprise $250 bill to fix their windshield. The city needs to do their jobs and there needs to also be immediate solutions that don't require 5 years of housing growth. If we make proper non-carceral solutions to this that work, we don't have to cede this issue to the right.

Yes, I know it's not fun. I grew up in an area that was rife with this kind of crime. Folks are upset now because it's no longer confined to the "bad areas" so they can't ignore it.

Folks aren't looking for non-carceral solutions even here. Prop 47 was one of the non-carceral solutions. The real way to deal with this problem is to address the societal root causes.

That's fair and I agree to an extent. I honestly have no idea what the approach to correcting the issue is though when re-involving law enforcement, without having an 'in' on users and working up to dealers and manufacturers. I don't really know if they could just start surveilling users to run up the chain, legally; they do fucked up shit all the time by interpreting the law in their own way regardless so who knows. Maybe providing actual protections for users that 'narc' without lying, fucking them over by luring them into confessions, using that at trial, and throwing them in jail/prison once they've moved on to the dealer.

The transfer from law enforcement to health services just hasn't been effective as expected unfortunately, and that seems to be one of the primary arguments for decriminalization. Instead, it blew up into a state of emergency / crisis. I think it's hard for residents to not to feel some way about that when it is directly affecting friends / family / the community at large, daily. And I think that the longer it takes to find an appropriate solution, the more people will be willing to accept harsher solutions that are proposed by people with vested interest in law enforcement and incarceration. I wouldn't even be surprised if this wasn't considered by politicians when voters backed it.

I also don't think solutions should be approached via black-and-white thinking and there are gray approaches that can fix this without criminalizing users, which will make these people permanently lost.

It's genuinely heartbreaking to see the wide range of people that are impacted by fentanyl abuse throughout the US. Before Portland I lived in the rural south and my former classmates were dropping like flies.

If you give police power, they will abuse it. You will have users in jails and prison.

That's because the state of medical care in the country is dire and cities and states rather spend more on policing than keeping folks healthy.

Im ok with more policing. The problem is the police are intentionally doing this in response to not being able terrorize the communities. Ever since George Floyd's protests, The local news in the Bay Area(ABC) started advertising and profiting off Black and Brown people committing petty crimes. I never hear any mention about what the police response or what can be done to prevent it.

Just remember that more policing means more folks in jails even folks you don't think should be.
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,048
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
To solve the actual problem you've got to get buy in from the citizens, that's not going to happen. No one wants to be taxed higher to pay for others, or inconvenienced for others. And taxing billionaires doesn't work as well as you think unless we start taxing stocks beyond capital gains.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,254
Yes, I know it's not fun. I grew up in an area that was rife with this kind of crime. Folks are upset now because it's no longer confined to the "bad areas" so they can't ignore it.

Folks aren't looking for non-carceral solutions even here. Prop 47 was one of the non-carceral solutions. The real way to deal with this problem is to address the societal root causes.



If you give police power, they will abuse it. You will have users in jails and prison.

That's because the state of medical care in the country is dire and cities and states rather spend more on policing than keeping folks healthy.



Just remember that more policing means more folks in jails even folks you don't think should be.
I get what you're saying but "good areas" being bad literally means you're not safe anywhere which is just altogether awful for society. When poor people can't even spend a nice day in the city without fear of getting robbed, it's a damn mess. And it's not just about "fuck rich people".

There isn't a single way any of you can spin this crime wave as a good thing when black and latino people are fleeing this city along with white folks because of it.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,222
I get what you're saying but "good areas" being bad literally means you're not safe anywhere which is just altogether awful for society. When poor people can't even spend a nice day in the city without fear of getting robbed, it's a damn mess. And it's not just about "fuck rich people".

There isn't a single way any of you can spin this crime wave as a good thing when black and latino people are fleeing this city along with white folks because of it.

I agree that it's awful for society which is why we need to address the societal problems instead of simply incarcerating folks. We know that doesn't work.

Who said the crime wave was a good thing?
 
Jan 20, 2018
399
If people steal shampoo, deodorant and underwear the solution isn't to be tougher on crime, it's to make people less poor.
They have tried that with the minimum wage increase for food workers. The result of that was price increase on menu items and shutting down locations or ceasing operation all together.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,254
I agree that it's awful for society which is why we need to address the societal problems instead of simply incarcerating folks. We know that doesn't work.

Who said the crime wave was a good thing?
The hand waving with the "Well maybe if there wasn't wage theft" or "Maybe if we erected 400k parcels of housing in 2 months" seems so disconnected from reality. There needs to be a way to find near term solutions that don't make people wait for 4+ years. Because then you'll just absolutely hollow out these cities.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,222
The hand waving with the "Well maybe if there wasn't wage theft" or "Maybe if we erected 400k parcels of housing in 2 months" seems so disconnected from reality. There needs to be a way to find near term solutions that don't make people wait for 4+ years. Because then you'll just absolutely hollow out these cities.

The unfortunate reality is that there is no good real near term solution. Investment in areas that would have helped stop this has been lacking forever. These problems have been left to get to worse for years and this is the chickens coming home to roost.

Even policing is not a near term solution. It doesn't stop crime and you'll get more folks in jails and prisons who shouldn't be there.
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,053
They have tried that with the minimum wage increase for food workers. The result of that was price increase on menu items and shutting down locations or ceasing operation all together.
Raise the minimum wage for all jobs, not just specific ones, introduce a state run healthcare system, lower drug prices, ban college tuition, ban private schools, increase funding for public schools, end at-will employment, give workers actual protections against getting fired, make paid sick days mandatory, introduce better social security and support systems for people living below the poverty line, do not give them food stamps or other shit that brands them as poor, just give them money. Build more social housing, introduce maximum rents and limit how much rents can be raised, strengthen the rights of renters and limit the rights of landlords, end residential only suburbs, make everything mixed use to bring jobs closer to people who cannot afford cars also stop having single family homes as a category, all zones allowing for residential buildings should allow for apartment buildings. Build a proper public transportation system when possible (obviously not every 1,500 people town can have one) ...

There's so much that can be done to decrease poverty, throwing people into prison is not a solution, it does not fix the problem, it doesn't even address it. If stealing hygiene products is a massive problem then maybe the government should realize the entire fucking system is broken. That doesn't mean theft should be ignored but you're not going to stop crime by being tough on it without solving the underlying issues that make people turn to crime in the first place.
 
Jan 20, 2018
399
Raise the minimum wage for all jobs, not just specific ones, introduce a state run healthcare system, lower drug prices, ban college tuition, ban private schools, increase funding for public schools, end at-will employment, give workers actual protections against getting fired, make paid sick days mandatory, introduce better social security and support systems for people living below the poverty line, do not give them food stamps or other shit that brands them as poor, just give them money. Build more social housing, introduce maximum rents and limit how much rents can be raised, strengthen the rights of renters and limit the rights of landlords, end residential only suburbs, make everything mixed use to bring jobs closer to people who cannot afford cars also stop having single family homes as a category, all zones allowing for residential buildings should allow for apartment buildings. Build a proper public transportation system when possible (obviously not every 1,500 people town can have one) ...

There's so much that can be done to decrease poverty, throwing people into prison is not a solution, it does not fix the problem, it doesn't even address it. If stealing hygiene products is a massive problem then maybe the government should realize the entire fucking system is broken. That doesn't mean theft should be ignored but you're not going to stop crime by being tough on it without solving the underlying issues that make people turn to crime in the first place.
I don't know if even that would solve the problem unfortunately. The wealth disparity has for a long time played a role in how each county let alone the state functions. Oakland just looks like local government has given up on it and the surrounding areas are slowly becoming that way as well. Then you got places like Irvine that were having their officers round up homeless people and drop them off in places like Santa Ana and Anaheim because they didn't want them in their city to maintain their image. I just feel like this is a damned if you do, and damned if you don't situation. The crime has gotten worse even beyond just shoplifting.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,393
Honestly I understand the frustration of people who haven't looked into these issues and just see videos of looting with employees basically helpless and 0 security in sight. This is obviously something that needs to be dealt with both directly at the store level and indirectly at the societal level.

On its face it looks like a failing of society and that is upsetting.
 

Ensorcell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,931
The hand waving with the "Well maybe if there wasn't wage theft" or "Maybe if we erected 400k parcels of housing in 2 months" seems so disconnected from reality. There needs to be a way to find near term solutions that don't make people wait for 4+ years. Because then you'll just absolutely hollow out these cities.
Unless you want a completely locked down police state, there aren't any. Any solution is going to be gradual. These problems didn't happen overnight and its going to take longer than 4 years to fix it.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,222
Honestly I understand the frustration of people who haven't looked into these issues and just see videos of looting with employees basically helpless and 0 security in sight. This is obviously something that needs to be dealt with both directly at the store level and indirectly at the societal level.

On its face it looks like a failing of society and that is upsetting.

It is a failing of society. Our society is built around a system of massive exploitation.
 

Kelryin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
37
As many people mentioned, their isn't just one simple solution. People want an immediate solution that would just address the symptoms but not the disease. One of the issues I see is the lack of prevention and deterrence to fix the near-term problem. What's deterring potential offenders from committing a crime? Is the cost imposed on criminals adequate enough to stop them from committing repeat offenses? To many, nothing is more infuriating than having criminals know they can get away with a crime with little to no consequences.

But that just addresses the symptom, what about the disease? That's a far greater problem that's going to takes years and investment to address. Education, wealth gap, social services, corporate greed, corruption, inadequate laws, etc. Overall, it just seems societal apathy has grown more over the years thanks to the increase of all the other problems. It's hard to think about improving society when you're just trying to make it through your day. And I think trying to change that mindset is toughest challenge.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,951
My gf is from Cali and moved to NY and boy it seems getting your shit stolen is just a fact of life for many over there. So many cars stolen, her family house broken into multiple times, it's bad.

This kind of thing erodes public trust and leads to more and more anti-social behavior and with that you're eventually going to get a big right wing backlash if it remains unaddressed
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,734
I loathe your typical "tough on crime" bs legislation. But in cases like this, waxing lyrical about wage theft sadly isn't enough. Like, you have to make the real cause known, but you still have to address the issue short-term, because in our current reality, the real cause isn't going to be addressed.

Birds are eating your garden fruits. Well, they only migrated here because climate change has allowed them to, so I'll just wait until the climate goes back to normal and they'll leave.

The problem with "let people steal underwear" is that shit doesn't just affect rich people. They don't need to shop at walmart. Or use street parking. Or walk in the sketchy area.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
18,295
We'll do anything but fucking legalize drugs and give people a clean supply so they don't have to go out robbing, or give people access to stable, safe housing.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
35,221
My gf is from Cali and moved to NY and boy it seems getting your shit stolen is just a fact of life for many over there. So many cars stolen, her family house broken into multiple times, it's bad.

This kind of thing erodes public trust and leads to more and more anti-social behavior and with that you're eventually going to get a big right wing backlash if it remains unaddressed
It's basically how Adams won in NYC. Crime was up in the outer-boroughs, specifically in minority-majority neighborhoods, and he was literally the only person who even acknowledged the problem existed let alone talk about trying to do something about it. Obviously material conditions can and do often drive a rise in crime, but focusing on that to the detriment of the safety of innocent people just trying to live their lives just leads to conservative backlash because the left gets associated with "doing nothing about the problem" while innocent people get fucked over by all this and that's no good for anyone.
 
Last edited:

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
35,293
"Mom and pop stores get stolen from or their windows smashed too, not just Walmart"
"Yeah but who's to say they aren't also doing wage theft??"

"We shouldn't tolerate doing drugs or being disruptive on public transit"
"You just want poor people to stop existing, don't you?"

Era, plz
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,222
I loathe your typical "tough on crime" bs legislation. But in cases like this, waxing lyrical about wage theft sadly isn't enough. Like, you have to make the real cause known, but you still have to address the issue short-term, because in our current reality, the real cause isn't going to be addressed.

Birds are eating your garden fruits. Well, they only migrated here because climate change has allowed them to, so I'll just wait until the climate goes back to normal and they'll leave.

The problem with "let people steal underwear" is that shit doesn't just affect rich people. They don't need to shop at walmart. Or use street parking. Or walk in the sketchy area.

How does one address this short-term, in a way that the majority want, that isn't mass incarceration which doesn't solve the issue to begin with?

Maybe that's exactly what they want.

Could be.
 

Bizazedo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,072
The unfortunate reality is that there is no good real near term solution. Investment in areas that would have helped stop this has been lacking forever. These problems have been left to get to worse for years and this is the chickens coming home to roost.

Even policing is not a near term solution. It doesn't stop crime and you'll get more folks in jails and prisons who shouldn't be there.
At a certain point, every society needs "Don't do this shit, or else" laws / rules. This will result in incarcerations.

You're right that the why the crimes are being committed needs to be addressed as well, but they both need to exist.
 

Kmonk

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,800
US
My gf is from Cali and moved to NY and boy it seems getting your shit stolen is just a fact of life for many over there. So many cars stolen, her family house broken into multiple times, it's bad.

This kind of thing erodes public trust and leads to more and more anti-social behavior and with that you're eventually going to get a big right wing backlash if it remains unaddressed

But crime- both property and violent- are at historic lows in the state when looking at the last 50 years. Increases since the pandemic have been minor. And in my county- often used as an example of exploding homeless populations- has seen a decrease in property crime. How do you square that statistical circle?

There's been a narrative crafted about California since 2016 that isn't borne out in the stats. I live in the urban core of a major city, and I feel perfectly comfortable and safe walking around my neighborhood at two in the morning. In MY purely anecdotal experience "getting their shit stolen" isn't "a fact of life" for my neighbors, friends or family in the region.
 

Pein

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,485
NYC
At a certain point, every society needs "Don't do this shit, or else" laws / rules. This will result in incarcerations.

You're right that the why the crimes are being committed needs to be addressed as well, but they both need to exist.
Exactly, I don't know why people think it has to be one or the other.

Hey and if you get sent to prison we'll make sure you get some education while in there, pick up a trade or something. That's something that can happen, in the short term.

My gf is from Cali and moved to NY and boy it seems getting your shit stolen is just a fact of life for many over there. So many cars stolen, her family house broken into multiple times, it's bad.

This kind of thing erodes public trust and leads to more and more anti-social behavior and with that you're eventually going to get a big right wing backlash if it remains unaddressed
I've had to leave my car parked by mother's house because it kept getting vandalized and people have attempted to steal it, my neighbors got hers stolen last Friday. We had to put bars back on our windows after taking them off since 06. I've never seen my area look so bleak, never seen a dude shoot up drugs in person and now I see it everywhere and right in front my own house.
 
Last edited:

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,734
How does one address this short-term, in a way that the majority want, that isn't mass incarceration which doesn't solve the issue to begin with?
I don't know. That's well above my paygrade.

But crime- both property and violent- are at historic lows in the state when looking at the last 50 years. Increases since the pandemic have been minor. And in my county- often used as an example of exploding homeless populations- has seen a decrease in property crime. How do you square that statistical circle?
I'm not saying I know, because I'm not a mindreader.

One hypothetical is that the crime that is happening is more public and therefore more visible. Home theft is known to just the neighbors; Walmart theft is known by the whole area.

Another possibility is that hey, standards have gone up and tolerance for crime has gone down. Just because there's less crime than the 80s doesn't mean people wouldn't still want even less crime.