Frustrated Californians May Be Ready for a Tougher Approach to Crime

[Omegasquash]

I ain't gonna worry about folks stealing for necessity. Fuck Capitalism. No one should profit from necessities.

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Bingo. Basics ought not to be a thing that people have to worry about, and yet here our system is, creating the "trash" that they then turn around and complain about.

And these blanket "solutions" that are getting proposed never, ever work. Locking people up might keep the "trash" off the streets, but ask yourself 1) who's paying for that and 2) if it makes any meaningful difference at all. Housing and necessities shouldn't be part of a market that the wealthy few HAVE ALWYAS USED to exploit labor and extract profit, while giving us the illusion that the rising tide raised the boats and our overall qol is better because we have what...smart TV's?

 

[Aztechnology]

Tell them it costs about $1500 a day to imprison an inmate and see if they still want to put more people in prison.

 

[LGHT_TRSN]

1. Raise prices because they're greedy fucks
2. Rake in record profits
3. Use rising shoplifting rates (whether true or not) to petition for taxpayers to increase penalties for shoplifting and pay to incarcerate 'criminals' for taking deodorant

 

[Thordinson]

Bingo. Basics ought not to be a thing that people have to worry about, and yet here our system is, creating the "trash" that they then turn around and complain about.

And these blanket "solutions" that are getting proposed never, ever work. Locking people up might keep the "trash" off the streets, but ask yourself 1) who's paying for that and 2) if it makes any meaningful difference at all. Housing and necessities shouldn't be part of a market that the wealthy few HAVE ALWYAS USED to exploit labor and extract profit, while giving us the illusion that the rising tide raised the boats and our overall qol is better because we have what...smart TV's?

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All of this.

Tell them it costs about $1500 a day to imprison an inmate and see if they still want to put more people in prison.

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They do.

 

[Omegasquash]

Tell them it costs about $1500 a day to imprison an inmate and see if they still want to put more people in prison.

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"These WELFARE QUEENS are just out here STEALING BREAD so that they can get CUSHY LIVES IN PRISON AND COST HARD WORKING TAXPAYERS like YOU $1500 A DAY!"

 

[hanshen]

I'm much less worried about folks stealing from Walmart than I am Walmart stealing from their employees.

I ain't gonna worry about folks stealing for necessity. Fuck Capitalism. No one should profit from necessities.

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I agree with you on all these points. But here in Chicago we have a real issue with smash& grab rings targeting small independent retailers and restaurants. It's not a good look when a bakery gets robbed multiple times in a row and the city does nothing.

 

[Thordinson]

I agree with you on all these points. But here in Chicago we have a real issue with smash& grab rings targeting small independent retailers and restaurants. It's not a good look when a bakery gets robbed multiple times in a row and the city does nothing.

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I will say that mom and pop stores are not some inherently good thing either. They can steal wages just as Walmart does.

It's not a good look but mass incarceration is not the solution either.

 

[rockinreelin]

Moving from NYC to LA this fall and I'm pretty curious to see what all the fuss is about. I'm definitely not getting an apartment that only has street parking.

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Only two reasons to get an apartment with parking. The first is to avoid paying street parking violation fees and also not having to endlessly circle around your apartment looking for a space coming home late at night 'cause there is no parking near you. Even in a gated parking garage your car is not safe. I know plenty of people who had their cars broken into while parked in a gated garage. Best advice i can give you is to never leave anything in your car and always double check to make sure your car doors are locked after parking.

That being said I would not live in LA unless the apartment had parking of some kind.

 

[Rover]

Even if it's a crime ring stealing essentials and not directly those in need, doesn't something seem off when there's this much demand for fenced/"fell off the truck" deodorant and shampoo?

 

[spam musubi]

It definitely has been abused. Californian inmates are definitely being take advantage of as cheap labor, especially for firefighting. They tried keeping nonviolent offenders in longer than their sentences so they could have them fight fires for less than a dollar an hour

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All because of fires that PG&E should be criminally liable for, but they settled and CA state is not holding them accountable enough

 

[Don Fluffles]

I don't know if you recall but it was a middle class couple behind a lot of these shoplifting rings.

San Diego:

Leader of US retail theft ring that allegedly stole $8m in cosmetics caught

Michelle Mack allegedly recruited women to steal for her and would then sell the goods on Amazon, raking in almost $2m in 2022

www.theguardian.com

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There it is. Go after ringleaders first.

 

[Deleted member 24854]

It's convenient to advocate for both cracking down on "normal" crime and wage theft abstractly when only one of them is actually happening, only one of them has even a chance to happen and when there are structures in place that make sure only one of them happens.

And cracking down on crime/the prison system is absolutely one of these structures: they facilitate exploitation of workers by creating cheap labor, create and maintain social margins that drive wedges in labor movements, or are directly used to repress them. They are made to protect wage theft. Foucault had a lot to say about this.

 

[Thordinson]

Even if it's a crime ring stealing essentials and not directly those in need, doesn't something seem off when there's this much demand for fenced/"fell off the truck" deodorant and shampoo?

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It's much easier to only think about the symptoms rather than the cause.

It's convenient to advocate for both cracking down on "normal" crime and wage theft abstractly when only one of them is actually happening, only one of them has even a chance to happen and when there are structures in place that make sure only one of them happens.

And cracking down on crime/the prison system is absolutely one of these structures: they facilitate exploitation of workers by creating cheap labor, create and maintain social margins that drive wedges in labor movements, or are directly used to repress them. They are made to protect wage theft. Foucault had a lot to say about this.

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This.

 

[hanshen]

I will say that mom and pop stores are not some inherently good thing either. They can steal wages just as Walmart does.

It's not a good look but mass incarceration is not the solution either.

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Logan Square bakery targeted by burglar 3 times in 6 months

Surveillance video from last week shows a burglar smashing his way into a bakery in Chicago’s Logan Square neighborhood. The owner of Pan Artesanal told NBC Chicago they have been targeted three times in six months.

www.nbcchicago.com

So what is the solution then? Like what do you tell the immigrant family who are getting robbed? That petit bourgeois should just get fucked until communism?

I'm all for prison abolition but it doesn't means that we should pretend all crimes are due to some societal issues. It's been so bad since the pandemic that we have gang members patrolling the street to protect the Puerto Rican owned businesses from smash & grabbers in my neighborhood.

 

[Rinku_]

Shoplifting has a number of causes. Some due to genuine poverty but a lot of it to other reasons. Drug use a big driver of it (at least in the UK).

Nice article here about the soaring rise of Shoplifting in the UK.

Did you pay for that? What is driving the massive rise in shoplifting?

High streets across the UK are struggling with an epidemic of stealing. What’s behind this sudden crime wave and can anything be done to stop it?

www.theguardian.com

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Breaking: Poor people use drugs.

It's still because they're poor.

 

[Thordinson]

Logan Square bakery targeted by burglar 3 times in 6 months

Surveillance video from last week shows a burglar smashing his way into a bakery in Chicago’s Logan Square neighborhood. The owner of Pan Artesanal told NBC Chicago they have been targeted three times in six months.

www.nbcchicago.com

So what is the solution then? Like what do you tell the immigrant family who are getting robbed? That petit bourgeois should just get fucked until communism?

I'm all for prison abolition but it doesn't means that we should pretend all crimes are due to some societal issues. It's been so bad since the pandemic that we have gang members patrolling the street to protect the Puerto Rican owned businesses from smash & grabbers in my neighborhood.

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You can go after ring leaders since the rings are the biggest problem. Locking up everyone doesn't solve the problem especially in a country like the US where recidivism is high and there is no actual rehabilitation going on. They won't be locked forever and they will be in worse situations when they get out without any resources. We know the broken windows policing doesn't work. There's no reason to go back to it.

The vast majority of crimes are due to societal issues. You can't divorce societal issues from crimes. Addressing societal issues lowers crime. We know this. It's not a new idea and it's still true.

 

[bakedpony]

Crazy that shoplifting is basically tolerated. Yes corporation sucks, honest workers gets screwed etc but as a non American, shoplifting shouldn't be normalized in my opinion...

 

[entremet]

Logan Square bakery targeted by burglar 3 times in 6 months

Surveillance video from last week shows a burglar smashing his way into a bakery in Chicago’s Logan Square neighborhood. The owner of Pan Artesanal told NBC Chicago they have been targeted three times in six months.

www.nbcchicago.com

So what is the solution then? Like what do you tell the immigrant family who are getting robbed? That petit bourgeois should just get fucked until communism?

I'm all for prison abolition but it doesn't means that we should pretend all crimes are due to some societal issues. It's been so bad since the pandemic that we have gang members patrolling the street to protect the Puerto Rican owned businesses from smash & grabbers in my neighborhood.

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This is happening in a lot of Latino businesses of late since many use cash more than other establishments.

I'm all for restorative justice and hate the carceral system but we can't just turn a blind eye on crime.

This is where era is definitely way more out of sync with the populace. Crime does matter. Many base where we live on crime rates if we can control it.

However, there's also a greater swath of options than just jailing folks. I agree there.

 

[Omegasquash]

Crazy that shoplifting is basically tolerated. Yes corporation sucks, honest workers gets screwed etc but as a non American, shoplifting shouldn't be normalized in my opinion...

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So ask why shoplifting has become as prevalent or as normalized as they say it is.

 

[Skittles]

Time for black people to get 10 years for stealing a bottle of shampoo

 

[Thordinson]

This is happening in a lot of Latino businesses of late since many use cash more than other establishments.

I'm all for restorative justice and hate the carceral system but we can't just turn a blind eye on crime.

This is where era is definitely way more out of sync with the populace. Crime does matter. Many base where we live on crime rates if we can control it.

However, there's also a greater swath of options than just jailing folks. I agree there.

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No one is saying crime doesn't matter. Of course it matters. The reasons why it is happening need to be addressed rather than the symptoms. Folks want broken windows policing brought back which doesn't work. No one is asking why folks are going to fences to buy necessities for cheap.

Except there won't be any other options. It'll be locking folks up in droves.

 

[entremet]

No one is saying crime doesn't matter. Of course it matters. The reasons why it is happening need to be addressed rather than the symptoms. Folks want broken windows policing brought back which doesn't work.

Except there won't be any other options. It'll be locking folks up in droves.

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I think the messaging is tricky because it has really hurt reform processes like bail reform.

I saw it first hand in NY, which had a great bail reform law that was attacked constantly.

 

[Thordinson]

I think the messaging is tricky because it has really hurt reform processes like bail reform.

I saw it first hand in NY, which had a great bail reform law that was attacked constantly.

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Messaging being tricky doesn't mean folks should give up and just allow heads to be cracked.

 

[Jerm]

I think Oregon is heading this way too

 

[entremet]

Messaging being tricky doesn't mean folks should give up and just allow heads to be cracked.

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I agree. The issue is that the average voter, especially white voter, has had decades of copaganda to overcome and they're are the ones bringing these measures back, along with business and cop groups.

They haven't read The New Jim Crow and want immediate solutions. That's the sell job progressive have to make. It is a ballot initiative after all.

 

[Arkanim94]

Maybe more cruelty will fix issue this time.

 

[bakedpony]

So ask why shoplifting has become as prevalent or as normalized as they say it is.

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Poverty, desperate people etc. Doesn't mean its okay to steal a few items from a mom and pop store

 

[DrROBschiz]

1. Raise prices because they're greedy fucks
2. Rake in record profits
3. Use rising shoplifting rates (whether true or not) to petition for taxpayers to increase penalties for shoplifting and pay to incarcerate 'criminals' for taking deodorant

Click to shrink...

And we are done here

The endless cycles continue and the real problem is never addressed in a meaningful way

 

[Musubi]

Crime isn't going to go away. A good majority of crime is a direct result of people's material living conditions. i.e. Its expensive as fuck to live on the west coast and people have access to only limited or no social safety nets at all. What the fuck do you expect to happen?

The only way to effectively curb this kind of crime is to address the root issue. But that won't happen.

 

[Thordinson]

I agree. The issue is that the average voter, especially white voter, has had decades of copaganda to overcome and they're are the ones bringing these measures back, along with business and cop groups.

They haven't read The New Jim Crow and want immediate solutions. That's the sell job progressive have to make. It is a ballot initiative after all.

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The average voter is okay with our current police state, yes.

It's just like with homeless folks, no one wants to help them. They just don't want to see them.

Poverty, desperate people etc. Doesn't mean its okay to steal a few items from a mom and pop store

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Why are mom and pop stores inherently better than corporations? They can and do take advantage of workers and steal wages too.

That's not to say they are bad but I don't understand putting them on a pedestal.

 

[lunarworks]

One of the big problems is that all these minimum wage jobs facing cost of living pressure were never meant to be someone's living in the first place. They were meant to be jobs for young people saving, or for people who need extra income.

North American society was built on the production of goods. When you reduce that production capacity by automation and offshoring, but don't change society along with it, things fall apart. Badly. But hey, we can buy a 75" TV for $500 now.

I mean, it's good to crack down on anti-social shit like thievery and drug use on public transit. You should also bulldoze suburban neighbourhoods so corporate developers can drop thiccboi apartments to temper/lower prices and for the huge demand to live in Cali cities; you can do both things, and do them asynchronously, they're not blocking policies.

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I love how your solution to everything is always just to build slums.

 

[bakedpony]

The average voter is okay with our current police state, yes.

It's just like with homeless folks, no one wants to help them. They just don't want to see them.



Why are mom and pop stores inherently better than corporations? They can and do take advantage of workers and steal wages too.

That's not to say they are bad but I don't understand putting them on a pedestal.

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Because corporations can take the hit. A small family business that's run by immigrants and their family members cannot.

There are good and bad in all the players here. Most who steal are the ones who have no choice but there are those who definitely take advantage of the 1000 dollar law

 

[Tavernade]

I mean they could always do both, figure out the root causes and work to fix them and after that increase the penalties for continuing to steal.

Or if it's largely organized rings, offer huge incentives to the low level to get the upper level and massively increase penalties for people running the show.

I guess theoretically they could also base sentencing not on the overall cost stolen but the background behind it but I don't think that's ever been a thing besides 'rich people don't have to go to jail.' Like I've worked retail my whole life, people steal shit all the time they very clearly do not need and cannot resell, not everyone is Jean Valjean but some people are and hurting those people even more obviously isn't going to help anything.

 

[Lilly-Anne]

This is happening in a lot of Latino businesses of late since many use cash more than other establishments.

I'm all for restorative justice and hate the carceral system but we can't just turn a blind eye on crime.

This is where era is definitely way more out of sync with the populace. Crime does matter. Many base where we live on crime rates if we can control it.

However, there's also a greater swath of options than just jailing folks. I agree there.

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crime gets lower every year. crime has been getting lower for 30 years. crime is a media made panic

 

[Thordinson]

Because corporations can take the hit. A small family business that's run by immigrants and their family members cannot.

There are good and bad in all the players here. Most who steal are the ones who have no choice but there are those who definitely take advantage of the 1000 dollar law

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Sure but if a mom and pop is also committing wage theft, I'm not going to suddenly feel sorry for them more because they aren't a corporation. This doesn't mean they all are doing this, of course, but that they can just as easily take advantage of their workers. They are not better simply by virtue of not being Walmart.

I highly doubt it has to do with Prop 47 itself. As I said earlier, in Texas it's under $2500. If it were the case, then you should see even more massive shoplifting in large Texas cities.

I mean they could always do both, figure out the root causes and work to fix them and after that increase the penalties for continuing to steal.

Or if it's largely organized rings, offer huge incentives to the low level to get the upper level and massively increase penalties for people running the show.

I guess theoretically they could also base sentencing not on the overall cost stolen but the background behind it but I don't think that's ever been a thing besides 'rich people don't have to go to jail.' Like I've worked retail my whole life, people steal shit all the time they very clearly do not need and cannot resell, not everyone is Jean Valjean but some people are and hurting those people even more obviously isn't going to help anything.

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With finite resources, you can't do both. You have to choose one to focus on and getting rid of the root problems offers far more benefits.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/23/us/california-crime-punishment-jail.html?unlocked_article_code=1.9U0.y2_g.NwNDQSYK-7az&smid=url-share

Difficult problem honestly. Mass incarceration sucks, but just having petty crime run amok is bad look for safety.

I'm not too familiar with California state politics but I do remember not having enough space for inmates being a problem, which is why the original ballot measure passed.

That said, this seems like a post pandemic effect as the law is ten years old. I don't remember issues about this law before this.

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The core problem is poverty. Address poverty and you address crime. Incarcerating people does not stop them from committing crimes.

 

[Musubi]

Crazy that shoplifting is basically tolerated. Yes corporation sucks, honest workers gets screwed etc but as a non American, shoplifting shouldn't be normalized in my opinion...

Click to shrink...

All major national brand chain stores have insurance and also factor in shrink percentages into their budgeting as well. Fucking Walgreens even admitted they were over exaggerating about the damages shoplifting was causing them. Don't shed a fucking tear for these corps they'll be fucking okay.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/business/walgreens-shoplifting-retail/index.html

 

[radioactivez0r]

Glad to see everyone on the same page. I got a mailer from a current state Assembly member (Hoover, if it matters) and his whole campaign was "more jail time for theft" and I was like wow fuck off man, maybe make it so it's actually reasonable to live in California for everyone instead?

Also frustrated by this article that keeps using "public sentiment" and "Californians" as some kind of sweeping mass think scenario where we all want change, and then identifies maybe 3 people by name, plus LEO orgs and retail lobbyists.

 

[entremet]

crime gets lower every year. crime has been getting lower for 30 years. crime is a media made panic

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Overall over that frame, yes. But there was a post pandemic uptick, there was also hate crimes uptick.

I do agree the framing is awful but without solutions you get GOP and neoliberalism (private prisons) options, the "tough on crime" stuff filling that void.

The fact that this original law is getting attacked proof to that.

That said I think it's a good law.

 

[Skittles]

This is happening in a lot of Latino businesses of late since many use cash more than other establishments.

I'm all for restorative justice and hate the carceral system but we can't just turn a blind eye on crime.

This is where era is definitely way more out of sync with the populace. Crime does matter. Many base where we live on crime rates if we can control it.

However, there's also a greater swath of options than just jailing folks. I agree there.

Click to shrink...

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Easy example is expulsion from public transit, parks, and other spaces at least.


Yes, do that?


Both are good.

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Where do poor people go when they aren't allowed in parks, transit or 'other spaces.' How does removing them from those places address their drug addiction?

 

[Gentlemen]

California invented the Three Strikes Law.

Framing this upper/middle-class NIMBY-fueled 'frustration' as somehow going against our better nature is a fucking lie. We've never actually taken steps to improve the situation for the desperately poor, the unhoused, or the myriad problems of mental health and addiction they face on the streets. It's always a job given to a bunch of jumpy cowards with a badge and a gun.

 

[entremet]

Click to shrink...

Definitely not.

I'm just saying ignoring crime only emboldens tougher solutions.

I'm very familiar with this in NYC, where progressive crime policy is attacked constantly.

Hopefully Californian don't fall for this initiative to repeal it but the opposition is very ready.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Crazy that shoplifting is basically tolerated. Yes corporation sucks, honest workers gets screwed etc but as a non American, shoplifting shouldn't be normalized in my opinion...

Click to shrink...

We need more 17 year olds making $12 an hour getting into fist fights with hungry people.

 

[Tavernade]

With finite resources, you can't do both. You have to choose one to focus on and getting rid of the root problems offers far more benefits.

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I'd imagine fixing the innate problem is resource intensive but altering the law to hurt people taking advantage of the situation is (I would assume) considerably cheaper, especially if most people are just stealing to survive. I don't see why you can't do both.

 

[hanshen]

Why are mom and pop stores inherently better than corporations? They can and do take advantage of workers and steal wages too.

That's not to say they are bad but I don't understand putting them on a pedestal.

Click to shrink...

They are important to the neighborhood for the services and job opportunities. And they are the ones fending off gentrification. We know for a fact that organized crime gets worse when these small businesses leave a neighborhood. If we want to address the root cause of crime, we should absolutely support the local businesses and that includes their safety.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

I will say that mom and pop stores are not some inherently good thing either. They can steal wages just as Walmart does.

It's not a good look but mass incarceration is not the solution either.

Click to shrink...

This post is over the top

Is there anyone it's not OK to steal from or do all businesses get victim blamed

 

[MrChocolate]

I will say that mom and pop stores are not some inherently good thing either. They can steal wages just as Walmart does.

It's not a good look but mass incarceration is not the solution either.

Click to shrink...

Jesus christ, log off for a little bit and take a deep breath.

 

[Thordinson]

I'd imagine fixing the innate problem is resource intensive but altering the law to hurt people taking advantage of the situation is (I would assume) considerably cheaper, especially if most people are just stealing to survive. I don't see why you can't do both.

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Altering the law itself isn't but throwing folks in prison is. It's not that cheap to house folks in prison. It's costly. It only benefits the same corporations folks here rally against.

They are important to the neighborhood for the services and job opportunities. And they are the ones fending off gentrification. We know for a fact that organized crime gets worse when these small businesses leave a neighborhood. If we want to address the root cause of crime, we should absolutely support the local businesses and that includes their safety.

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You can support local businesses, that's fine. I'm arguing they aren't inherently better when it comes to labor problems than corporations. They don't deserve to be put on a pedestal.

This post is over the top

Is there anyone it's not OK to steal from or do all businesses get victim blamed

Click to shrink...

If you don't think that mom and pops can be just as bad as corporations when it comes to labor problems, I don't know what to tell you.

Jesus christ, log off for a little bit and take a deep breath.

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Hmm? I'm fine haha

 

[onpoint]

I feel like they're going after the symptoms and not the disease. People don't steal when they can easily afford the goods.

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Yeah... it's a pretty simple solution. Shame greed won't allow for it.