FuzzyWuzzy

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 7, 2019
2,269
Austria
Let's be real, no one gives a shit about Angola, or Rikers, or Arpaio's tent city jails, etc. When a nation says hey, maybe we shouldn't follow the Americans because they aren't rational actors, it's a big deal, despite the absolute depravity that we maintain under the 13th amendment and our racialized penal system.

We house the most prisoners per capita, along racial lines, and have a history of imperialism that makes the EU blush, yet that shit is just pushed under the rug because reasons.
NGL I don't get how that is relevant to the discussion. I am not fucking saying that the US isn't full of fucked up shit or hasn't done a lot of shit, but yeah I prefer them to Russia and China


My countries intelligence agencies being hollowed out Russian sock puppets is already embarrassing enough
 

hydrophilic attack

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,190
Sweden
becoming less reliant on, and subservient to, the us would be good for europe overall, but not if that means cozying up to other imperialist expansionist super powers, so he can fuck off with that
 

FuzzyWuzzy

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 7, 2019
2,269
Austria
If an actual full scale war breaks out the industry is gone no matter what. If China is losing they'll go full Russia and launch everything they have to turn Taiwan into a crater, if Taiwan is losing they'll blow up the fabs themselves. Really the only way a conflict with China doesn't end in global economic catastrophy is if it never happens.

Though I think the most likely scenario is the blockade one, China is no where near as self sufficient as Russia and they'll be crippled once their energy/food imports are blocked but for them they just have to outlast Taiwan
Oh yeah if it comes to blows Taiwan is gonna burn and as you said a blockade is a more realistic situation, but I fucking hate the appeasement towards China.

Doesn't help that Macron is a fucking moron as he has shown again and again when wanting to negotiate with Putin
 

FuzzyWuzzy

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 7, 2019
2,269
Austria
becoming less reliant on, and subservient to, the us would be good for europe overall, but not if that means cozying up to other imperialist expansionist super powers, so he can fuck off with that
Real talk, we would have to enforce much stronger integration among the EU to see us become less reliant on the US in matters of security but sadly I struggle to see that happening within my life time
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,986
imo seems like the chinese government has a pretty good incentive to act normal and not try to drag the whole planet into a global war

This is a big danger of governments that become cults of personality. Xi is surrounded with sycophants who lie to him out of fear and true believers who push for more nationalism, the perfect recipe to do something monumentally stupid.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
imo seems like the chinese government has a pretty good incentive to act normal and not try to drag the whole planet into a global war
So did Russia.

You can't always trust governments to be rational actors, especially when they're led by increasingly insulated, mediocre authoritarians surrounded by yes-men.

Ruthlessly pragmatic, consensus-driven governance is a thing of the past in China. It's all Xi and his sycophants now.
 

NetMapel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,975
becoming less reliant on, and subservient to, the us would be good for europe overall, but not if that means cozying up to other imperialist expansionist super powers, so he can fuck off with that
That matches my thought exactly. France and EU should probably focus on helping Ukraine defend itself to win against the Russian invasion. If they're able to do that without much reliance on the US, then that would be a great achievement. However, the current reality is in totality, US is the one helping Ukraine with the most resources. So I feel if France/EU wants to flex, let's start there first, right?

EDIT: Adding this video by Singaporean news regarding the Philippines here as well:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acVyWS-pRwc
 
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Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,222
It seems that Macron isn't alone in his opinion:

www.politico.eu

Charles Michel: Europe warming up to Macron’s ‘strategic autonomy’ push away from US

European Council president says EU cannot ‘blindly, systematically follow’ Washington.

"On the issue of the relationship with the United States, it's clear that there can be nuances and sensitivities around the table of the European Council. Some European leaders wouldn't say things the same way that Emmanuel Macron did ... I think quite a few really think like Emmanuel Macron.

"There is indeed a great attachment that remains present — and Emmanuel Macron has said nothing else — for this alliance with the United States. But if this alliance with the United States would suppose that we blindly, systematically follow the position of the United States on all issues, no," Michel said.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
21,095
It seems that Macron isn't alone in his opinion:

www.politico.eu

Charles Michel: Europe warming up to Macron’s ‘strategic autonomy’ push away from US

European Council president says EU cannot ‘blindly, systematically follow’ Washington.
I don't think his statement is all that meaningful. He presents an absolute extreme, borderline straw man and rejects it, which is different from saying "we're going to significantly distance ourselves from the US"

I mean who is actually proposing this part in bold?
"But if this alliance with the United States would suppose that we blindly, systematically follow the position of the United States on all issues, no,"
 

Magni

Member
I don't think his statement is all that meaningful. He presents an absolute extreme, borderline straw man and rejects it, which is different from saying "we're going to significantly distance ourselves from the US"

I mean who is actually proposing this part in bold?
"But if this alliance with the United States would suppose that we blindly, systematically follow the position of the United States on all issues, no,"

Everyone who poured French wine shown the streets and started calling fries freedom fries in 2003.

As had been said by other French posters on this thread already, this whole thing is blowing up out of proportion due to a mix of: Macron being terrible with words; Politico being a shitrag; and bad translations:


View: https://twitter.com/ericgarland/status/1645239508613431298?t=69NHenaA1mEEjlRePT1HuQ&s=19



View: https://twitter.com/ericgarland/status/1645415314904039426?t=A6UOTr4K7ck18KMeMipRrg&s=19
 

Arilian

Member
Oct 29, 2020
2,642

View: https://twitter.com/peddersophie/status/1646173477047615488

"Someday Macron will do a foreign policy interview that doesn't require explaining."

It would require him listening to someone outside his close circle of advisors at the Élysée.

If only France had a bunch of public servants whose work is to study the world and learn how to interact with other countries in a way designed to reduce the risk of armed conflicts.

And then, the explanation (Antoine Bondaz is a French researcher, specialized on China, Taiwan, North and South Korea and the Indo-pacific area in general):


View: https://twitter.com/AntoineBondaz/status/1646191427645325317
 
Nov 23, 2019
9,615
RRT4 ▶︎▶︎▶︎
www.theguardian.com

Emmanuel Macron heckled during state visit to Netherlands

French president also criticised for saying Europe should act independently from US over Taiwan
The French president was due to give a speech on European strategic autonomy when two demonstrators against his pension changes were arrested as they ran towards him on his arrival at the University of Amsterdam.

The speech, interrupted by repeated heckling, had been seen as a chance to clarify his remarks made in an interview on Sunday in which he called for Europe to act more independently from the US over Taiwan. French officials insisted he would not apologise for his remarks, and pointed out a French naval ship had been sailing through the Taiwan strait on Sunday, a sign of France's commitment to Taiwan's independence.
Degrees of unease with Macron's freelancing was also emerging in Berlin, from where Annalena Baerbock, the German foreign minister, flew to Beijing on Wednesday for a long-planned visit that some officials framed as an exercise in damage limitation after Macron's remarks.

The foreign policy spokesperson of Baerbock's Social Democrat coalition partners, Nils Schmid, told Der Spiegel she faced "the unplanned challenge of clarifying Europe's stance on Taiwan and firming up the warnings that the chancellor [Olaf Scholz] sounded during his meeting with Xi [Jinping] in November".

In a sign of French disarray, the country's foreign ministry cancelled a planned debrief on the trip for foreign diplomats in Paris on Tuesday as officials scrambled to make sure they had a consistent message and to limit any fallout with Washington.
US Republican senators have already responded by calling for the US to rein back its support for Ukraine if Europe is not prepared to back the US over China. The Republican senator Marco Rubio said "if France won't pick sides over Taiwan, maybe the US shouldn't pick sides on Ukraine and leave it to Europe".
The German leader of the European Peoples party in the European parliament, Manfred Weber, also openly criticised Macron, saying: "There is no middle ground between international law and the pursuit of empire by autocrats. To protect our freedom, democrats must stand together in defence of a rules-based world, in Ukraine and in Taiwan. We have to strengthen our alliance with the US."

Schmid, a foreign policy expert and member of parliament for German Chancellor Olaf Scholz's Social Democrats, said both Scholz and Macron had long favoured the idea of "European sovereignty".

But, he added: "The problematic thing about Macron's visit is that he deliberately pulled out the European card and took the EU Council president Von der Leyen with him. But then he allowed her to be put in the second row. This has destroyed the hoped-for impetus for a common European policy on China.

"China is playing the card of dividing Europe. We must prevent that."

The Czech foreign minister, Jan Lipavský, said via a spokesperson: "The return of geopolitics means that we have to see more clearly who is our ally and who is not. Strong transatlantic relations between Europe and the US are the foundation of our security. Europe must invest more in its own security, but I do not see that as an obstacle or a limit for cooperation with the US."
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
23,020
Real talk, we would have to enforce much stronger integration among the EU to see us become less reliant on the US in matters of security but sadly I struggle to see that happening within my life time
I also think we have to consider that when Macron says "I want the EU to become a world power that could rival the US or China" what he actually means is "I want France to be a world power that could rival the US or China". France's interest in a stronger EU is in no way independent from their idea that they would be leading (at the very least as one of one or two leaders, if not the sole leader) said strong EU. I'm not even against decreased EU reliance on US military, but when examining the motives of leaders you can't just take what they say at face value
 

FuzzyWuzzy

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 7, 2019
2,269
Austria
I also think we have to consider that when Macron says "I want the EU to become a world power that could rival the US or China" what he actually means is "I want France to be a world power that could rival the US or China". France's interest in a stronger EU is in no way independent from their idea that they would be leading (at the very least as one of one or two leaders, if not the sole leader) said strong EU. I'm not even against decreased EU reliance on US military, but when examining the motives of leaders you can't just take what they say at face value
Oh yeah Macron still dreams of France leading the EU as a global player, personally really not a fan of him
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
21,095
Lots of world leaders are upset with what he said, which to me makes this much more than a bad translation or whatever spin his defense force was putting forth.
 

Arilian

Member
Oct 29, 2020
2,642
The German leader of the European Peoples party in the European parliament, Manfred Weber, also openly criticised Macron, saying: "There is no middle ground between international law and the pursuit of empire by autocrats. To protect our freedom, democrats must stand together in defence of a rules-based world, in Ukraine and in Taiwan. We have to strengthen our alliance with the US."
A member of the CDU doesn't have any ground, low or high, to stand on regarding China.
 
Feb 20, 2022
200
User Banned (permanent): inflammatory commentary, account in junior phase
These poll results also include a lot of older Europeans on the right who don't like China. I don't find it surprising that older, right wing Europeans are anti China and pro US considering this is from majority white Europe

The idea that people on the left like China, and only people on the right dislike China is so absurd to me that it makes me wonder what is wrong with this forum. And there's a pattern on this forum, in all threads about China, where people condemning China and the CCP for being a totalitarian and imperialistic country are being banned, while the "usual suspects" are being left alone as the mods look the other way when it comes to the repeated whataboutism and the same bad faith arguments (which are nothing more than CCP propaganda and tactics).

It's so ridiculous to read that if you don't like totalitarian, imperialistic regimes, then you're right wing... I think ResetERA has stopped being a leftist forum, and is instead heading down a more insidious road and it's not difficult to figure out which are the people responsible for this.

If you support a totalitarian government that is determined to build an alternative world order that's friendlier to autocrats (which is exactly what China is doing), a regime that stands against everything the left fights for (LGBT rights, minority rights), then you are not left - you are a tankie and this forum fits the bill: I noticed how in every (every single one, without fail) thread about China, there will be one or more people derailing the discussion with whataboutism about America or or using CCP propaganda catchphrases like "America's lapdogs" (and we have one in this thread, EricTheGamerman) or accusations of sinophobia or even some who 'both sides' and try to equate the Uyghur genocide with the American prison system as if they are the same thing (Thordinson in this thread, but a few others too), or even accusations of American warmongering (have y'all noticed how every time China threatens Taiwan or some other country, the same usual suspects will invariably have a post where they try to blame the crisis on America? even in the thread about China starting military exercises around Taiwan there's one who's using the 'warmongering' rhetoric seemingly blaming forum users and just about everyone except China for it lmao) and the worst part is mods are banning the ones who oppose the Chinese totalitarian government (but this has been happening for a long time, without many people noticing - and if others like me did notice, they didn't seem to talk about it, probably out of fear of retaliation from the mods).

This forum is on a fucked up path. You can follow every thread about China and you'll notice the same tactics (whataboutism, accusations of sinophobia, "america is just as bad as the ccp and russia", or the rhetoric of 'western warmongering' while ignoring China's bullying of literally every single neighbor in the SCS and militarazing artificial islands which the Hague ruled as being ilegally built (not that China ever cared about respecting rules, but what self respecting wumao has time for that amiright?), - literally the same diversions when China is accused of imperialism and jingoism) from the same people and you'll notice a pattern of mods banning the people making posts condemning the totalitarian regime that the CCP is, while not banning the resident wumaos/tankies.

I can't help but notice the irony of this forum being a place for minorities, while the mods seem to protect people with an agenda of shilling for an ethnostate, totalitarian regime that stands against every value ResetERA is supposed to stand for. It's going to be an interesting time to watch this cognitive dissonance and what mental gymnastics will be made to explain it. There was a time a few years ago when comparing the Uyghur genocide with a prison system was a bannable offence. That time is gone, and right now the agenda on this forum seems to be leaning pro-totalitarian regimes. I do wonder though how many of this forum's usual suspects are living (or have lived) in China. For that matter, how many of the mods are minorities and have lived in China. That'd be a great experience for them, I'm sure lol They'll have a taste of that great socialism they crave for and how good old Big Brother (aka the party) treats people who complain and try to fight for rights.
 

Guaraná

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,403
brazil, unfortunately
Lula-e-Xi-em-Pequim-450x300.jpeg


On correlated news, Brazil is also distancing itself from the US but in this case, sponsored by China.

Today Lula met Xi, signed 15 agreements, and said that no one will prohibit Brazil from having an advanced link with China (this is related to Huawei's 5G technology - the US under the Trump administration was trying to influence the former Bolsonaro government to prevent the entry of the Chinese company)

The projection at the Ministry of Finance is that the pacts total around U$ 50 billion in investment. The list highlights memorandums of understanding between the Chinese Ministry of Finance and the Treasury, for infrastructure and public-private partnerships, and a protocol to manufacture and operate CBERS-6 satellites.

Yesterday at a meeting with the president of the National People's Congress, Zhao Leji, Lula had already said he wanted to "raise the level of strategic partnership and, together with China, balance world geopolitics."

I, personally, do not have a formed opinion about this, but the truth is Brazil needs investments to warm up the economy. In February Lula went to the United States and returned with only a letter of intent, this time he returns from China with a real expectation of 50 billion dollars in direct investments in the country
 
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kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
21,095
Lula-e-Xi-em-Pequim-450x300.jpeg


On correlated news, Brazil is also distancing itself from the US but in this case, sponsored by China.

Today Lula met Xi, signed 15 agreements, and said that no one will prohibit Brazil from having an advanced link with China (this is related to Huawei's 5G technology - the US under the Trump administration was trying to influence the former Bolsonaro government to prevent the entry of the Chinese company)

The projection at the Ministry of Finance is that the pacts total around U$ 50 billion in investment. The list highlights memorandums of understanding between the Chinese Ministry of Finance and the Treasury, for infrastructure and public-private partnerships, and a protocol to manufacture and operate CBERS-6 satellites.

Yesterday at a meeting with the president of the National People's Congress, Zhao Leji, Lula had already said he wanted to "raise the level of strategic partnership and, together with China, balance world geopolitics."

I, personally, do not have a formed opinion about this, but the truth is Brazil needs investments to warm up the economy. In February Lula went to the United States and returned with only a letter of intent, this time he returns from China with a real expectation of 50 billion dollars in direct investments in the country
Lula's best international friends are Putin and Xi. I'm unimpressed.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
46,107
The idea that people on the left like China, and only people on the right dislike China is so absurd to me that it makes me wonder what is wrong with this forum. And there's a pattern on this forum, in all threads about China, where people condemning China and the CCP for being a totalitarian and imperialistic country are being banned, while the "usual suspects" are being left alone as the mods look the other way when it comes to the repeated whataboutism and the same bad faith arguments (which are nothing more than CCP propaganda and tactics).

It's so ridiculous to read that if you don't like totalitarian, imperialistic regimes, then you're right wing... I think ResetERA has stopped being a leftist forum, and is instead heading down a more insidious road and it's not difficult to figure out which are the people responsible for this.

If you support a totalitarian government that is determined to build an alternative world order that's friendlier to autocrats (which is exactly what China is doing), a regime that stands against everything the left fights for (LGBT rights, minority rights), then you are not left - you are a tankie and this forum fits the bill: I noticed how in every (every single one, without fail) thread about China, there will be one or more people derailing the discussion with whataboutism about America or or using CCP propaganda catchphrases like "America's lapdogs" (and we have one in this thread, EricTheGamerman) or accusations of sinophobia or even some who 'both sides' and try to equate the Uyghur genocide with the American prison system as if they are the same thing (Thordinson in this thread, but a few others too), or even accusations of American warmongering (have y'all noticed how every time China threatens Taiwan or some other country, the same usual suspects will invariably have a post where they try to blame the crisis on America? even in the thread about China starting military exercises around Taiwan there's one who's using the 'warmongering' rhetoric seemingly blaming forum users and just about everyone except China for it lmao) and the worst part is mods are banning the ones who oppose the Chinese totalitarian government (but this has been happening for a long time, without many people noticing - and if others like me did notice, they didn't seem to talk about it, probably out of fear of retaliation from the mods).

This forum is on a fucked up path. You can follow every thread about China and you'll notice the same tactics (whataboutism, accusations of sinophobia, "america is just as bad as the ccp and russia", or the rhetoric of 'western warmongering' while ignoring China's bullying of literally every single neighbor in the SCS and militarazing artificial islands which the Hague ruled as being ilegally built (not that China ever cared about respecting rules, but what self respecting wumao has time for that amiright?), - literally the same diversions when China is accused of imperialism and jingoism) from the same people and you'll notice a pattern of mods banning the people making posts condemning the totalitarian regime that the CCP is, while not banning the resident wumaos/tankies.

I can't help but notice the irony of this forum being a place for minorities, while the mods seem to protect people with an agenda of shilling for an ethnostate, totalitarian regime that stands against every value ResetERA is supposed to stand for. It's going to be an interesting time to watch this cognitive dissonance and what mental gymnastics will be made to explain it. There was a time a few years ago when comparing the Uyghur genocide with a prison system was a bannable offence. That time is gone, and right now the agenda on this forum seems to be leaning pro-totalitarian regimes. I do wonder though how many of this forum's usual suspects are living (or have lived) in China. For that matter, how many of the mods are minorities and have lived in China. That'd be a great experience for them, I'm sure lol They'll have a taste of that great socialism they crave for and how good old Big Brother (aka the party) treats people who complain and try to fight for rights.
This post is hilarious on multiple fronts and I'm pleasantly surprised to see you permabanned. Adios!
 

Raftina

Member
Jun 27, 2020
4,395
I am not sure if this is a poll that is useful to get an idea of worldwide opinions on the US and China. Maybe for this thread focused on Europe because it's mostly European countries polled in there. They have only chosen Israel for the middle east. I think if the rest of the middle east was polled the results would be vastly different. China has recently brokered some kind of truce between Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Cambridge actually had such a meta study of polls around the world, to get a sense of the opinions on the US, Russia, and China: https://www.bennettinstitute.cam.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/A_World_Divided.pdf

Here are the salient graphs. Note that this study covers polls conducted after the war in Ukraine, which you can see in the graph on page 18 of the pdf (I use the pdf page, not the internal pagination).

page 20, change of opinions on China over time, divided by region
UvpyUx6.jpg


page 13, favorable opinions of the 3 countries, divided by type of country
biWzkqz.jpg


Worldwide opinion of China is actually pretty fairly stable and positive (except the very large dip around 2019, maybe Hong Kong?). However, the overall stability is driven by a pretty significant divergence in opinion, with the Global South having improving opinions compared to a decade earlier (or even a few years earlier), while high income countries having lower opinions (China's opinion of itself is not counted in this study, nor US toward the US itself and Russia toward Russia itself). In fact, the Global South has a higher opinion of China than the US, though only barely.

There are also some salient points. For example, India now has almost a net positive opinion of China (and it's going up), despite the border clashes and Hindu nationalism. Positive opinion of China increased from 18% in 2012 to 40% in 2022 (though quite a bit to go before net positive).
 
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anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
This post is hilarious on multiple fronts and I'm pleasantly surprised to see you permabanned. Adios!
I have no idea why my post triggered that response 😂 considering all I wrote was what was quoted in that poll. Namely that in the US for example Republicans would be more anti China than the Democrats for reasons other than CCP.
Cambridge actually had such a meta study of polls around the world, to get a sense of the opinions on the US, Russia, and China: https://www.bennettinstitute.cam.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/A_World_Divided.pdf

Here are the salient graphs. Note that this study covers polls conducted after the war in Ukraine, which you can see in the graph on page 18 of the pdf (I use the pdf page, not the internal pagination).

page 20, change of opinions on China over time, divided by region
UvpyUx6.jpg


page 13, favorable opinions of the 3 countries, divided by type of country
biWzkqz.jpg


Worldwide opinion of China is actually pretty fairly stable and positive (except the very large dip around 2019, maybe Hong Kong?). However, the overall stability is driven by a pretty significant divergence in opinion, with the Global South having improving opinions compared to a decade earlier (or even a few years earlier), while high income countries having lower opinions (China's opinion of itself is not counted in this study, nor US toward the US itself and Russia toward Russia itself). In fact, the Global South has a higher opinion of China than the US, though only barely.

There are also some salient points. For example, India now has almost a net positive opinion of China (and it's going up), despite the border clashes and Hindu nationalism. Positive opinion of China increased from 18% in 2012 to 40% in 2022 (though quite a bit to go before net positive).
Thanks!! Will give it a read but this is more or less what I expected. The Global south have entirely different perspectives from the West. And yes India is surprising given recent border clashes but Pakistan has always been that arch enemy for most Indians and there is still a robust trade pact between India and China. The Indian market is flooded with affordable Chinese smart phones, there is BRICS and the opposition leader was even praising China in terms of their economy.

It is funny though that the Chinese dislike of India is second only to the US! Even beating Japan. I have no idea why - does the border clash register that much for them? I thought Taiwan was the bigger issue.



y08dm2lkgi191.jpg
 
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Kalamour

Member
Oct 25, 2017
333
Let's be clear, one of the main reasons Macron is disliked in France is because of his neo-liberal politics: He is trying to push our wellfare state closer to a capitalist/US system. A lot of people here seem hurt over him and other saying we (the EU) shouldn't over-rely on the US for our security, but this is just common sense, especially after 2016 (and who could say what will happen in 2024?), and of course it does not mean we should cozy up to the Chinese.
 

Ceerious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,611
Asian
It is funny though that the Chinese dislike of India is second only to the US! Even beating Japan. I have no idea why - does the border clash register that much for them? I thought Taiwan was the bigger issue

Border dispute is far from the only issue between China and India. In other words, the border conflict has intensified as a result of escalating tensions between China and India on other fronts.

Chinese national media has portrayed the US as China's No.1 enemy over the past 2 decades, with Japan, South Korea, and India not far behind. Among the 3 "enemies" in Asia, only India has a real chance of overtaking China as the second-largest economic power, and China felt the pressure from India very keenly, particularly on the IT and labor fronts. India has long been represented in Chinese media as a filthy, violent, and destitute country; but, when Chinese students travelled abroad to the US, they suddenly realised that many Indian immigrants acted as their lecturers or their greatest competitors. China's fear of India becoming the superpower in Asia is not unlike the US's fear of China becoming the dominant force in the region. The anxiety is very real.

Another important factor is that China, Japan, and South Korea share cultural roots. Softpower from Japan and South Korea has a significant impact on Chinese young people. K-Pop, K-Drama, Anime, and Japan games are immensely popular in China. On the contrary, Indian softpower receives little attention in Chinese media. This, I believe, has the greatest impact on the difference between positive and negative opinions of these countries among young Chinese.

There are more "smaller" aspects. Tibet's exile government is still protected by the Indian government. The Brits utilised Indians to oppress the Chinese throughout the colonial period.

And of course there are racial bigotry issues, but I won't get into them here.
 

SABO.

Member
Nov 6, 2017
5,873
Super interesting all the shots at the US Dollar recently. Hard to see it sticking when only the bad guys are doing it
 

Fallout-NL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,606
Let's be clear, one of the main reasons Macron is disliked in France is because of his neo-liberal politics: He is trying to push our wellfare state closer to a capitalist/US system. A lot of people here seem hurt over him and other saying we (the EU) shouldn't over-rely on the US for our security, but this is just common sense, especially after 2016 (and who could say what will happen in 2024?), and of course it does not mean we should cozy up to the Chinese.

It's suspiciously soon after his visit to China, especially when considered in light of similar comments regarding Taiwan.
 
Nov 23, 2019
9,615
RRT4 ▶︎▶︎▶︎
www.theguardian.com

When Macron met Xi: welcome to the new world disorder

China’s leader is gathering autocratic regimes to his banner, Europe and the US are divided over how to respond, and the French president just lobbed a grenade onto the field of international diplomacy
5000.jpg

China's leader is gathering autocratic regimes to his banner, Europe and the US are divided over how to respond, and the French president just lobbed a grenade onto the field of international diplomacy

It is perhaps no surprise that Emmanuel Macron is in the middle of another big international row. France's president likes to stir things up. It is his penchant, his trademark foible. Re-elected in 2022 despite a disappointing first term, he has four years left to make a difference. After that, political oblivion beckons – and Macron will still be under 50 in April 2027. Maybe this ticking clock helps explain why he courts danger like a bare-chested surfer riding the waves on the beach at Biarritz.

At home, Macron has caused uproar in recent months by pushing through controversial pension reforms opposed by two-thirds of the population. The row has contributed to a plunging personal approval rating, down to 30% this month. Facing a confidence vote in March, his government survived by bypassing parliament. The reforms are under legal challenge, while violent nationwide protests are continuing. Yet insouciant Macron seems almost oblivious at times.
Abroad, too, Macron has gained a reputation for tossing political hand-grenades – intentionally or by accident, who can say? In 2019, he famously declared that Nato was experiencing "brain death". He could hardly have been more wrong. In 2021-22, he took it upon himself to mediate, ostensibly on Europe's behalf, with Vladimir Putin over Ukraine. Even after Putin ignored him and invaded, Macron insisted Moscow should be offered "security guarantees" and that Russia not be "humiliated".

European autonomy is not such a terrible idea. Trouble is, Europe and the EU – the two are inter-changeable in this context – have consistently failed to live up to pipe dreams of global power. And so, too, has Macron's France, in respect of offering substantive European leadership. Paris has been notably tight-fisted, for example, over providing military aid to Ukraine, compared with the US, the UK or even tiny, less wealthy countries such as Latvia.

China, on the other hand, just loves Macron's ideas about rescuing Europe from America's smothering embrace. His comments were wildly applauded in state-controlled media.
The launch of this new order is being undertaken in close collaboration with Putin – although, as Xi sees it, Russia will play a supporting role, essentially a tame provider of arms, energy and raw materials to China. Other, lesser autocracies such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and some African and Asian regimes are being lined up as founding members. Xi's target: the current, US-led, UN-endorsed, democratic international rules-based system.

If a European consensus view on China actually exists, it was possibly best expressed by Von der Leyen in a speech last month. China, she said, had become "more repressive at home and more assertive abroad," and Europe must be bolder in response. Action could include cancelling a key trade deal, the Comprehensive Agreement on Investment championed by her former mentor, Angela Merkel.
EU countries should use economic measures such as screening of foreign subsidies and restrictions on sensitive technology transfers to rebalance relations with Beijing. But "our relations are not black and white", she said, referring perhaps to the fact that China is the EU's largest trading partner. Unlike the US, where the talk is of complete "decoupling", she said the EU should focus on "de-risking" its relationship.
 

Kschreck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,276
Pennsylvania
Not sure I want to make a new thread here but it's looking like Germany might be about to embrace China as well:

www.reuters.com

China says it hopes Germany supports peaceful Taiwan 'reunification'

China's top diplomat Wang Yi "hopes and believes" Germany will support China's "peaceful reunification" with Taiwan, the Chinese foreign ministry said in a statement on Saturday.

Feels like America is losing a lot of allies these days.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,738
JP
Not sure I want to make a new thread here but it's looking like Germany might be about to embrace China as well:

www.reuters.com

China says it hopes Germany supports peaceful Taiwan 'reunification'

China's top diplomat Wang Yi "hopes and believes" Germany will support China's "peaceful reunification" with Taiwan, the Chinese foreign ministry said in a statement on Saturday.

Feels like America is losing a lot of allies these days.

How in the world did you end up with that conclusion? That's just China's voicepiece. This is what Germany's foreign minister actually said (from your own link).

On Friday, Baerbock said any attempt by China to control Taiwan would be unacceptable and would have serious repercussions for Europe. European Union foreign policy chief Josep Borrell echoed her remarks.

Beijing, which claims democratically governed Taiwan as a Chinese province, has never ruled out the use of force to bring the island under its control. Taiwan President Tsai Ing-wen's government rejects China's position, saying only Taiwan's people can decide their future.

Taiwan's Foreign Ministry said in a statement on Saturday it strongly approved of Baerbock's comments.
 

hobblygobbly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,112
NORDFRIESLAND, DEUTSCHLAND
Our foreign minister Annalena Baerbock (Greens) has said the similar dumb shit with her recent visit to China with her 2 day visit, even if she was a bit more critical - still mostly milk baby criticism and empty remarks like when she said if Taiwan is attacked then there serious consequences for global economy. It's generally diplomacy with no backbone without trying to upset China too much with any direct criticism

I agree with our finance minister Christian Lindner (FDP) about economically distancing ourselves from China. I believe a study a while ago was done that the German economy can detach itself from China, there isn't any critical dependence yet, for sure some industries will hurt while they sort out supply line issues, but those supplies are not dependent on only from China, a lot of it is indirect, with less from China being direct inputs into Germany economy than once thought - most of our inputs are our own. Biggest issue is some rare earth metals but this is not an intrinsic dependency on China.

It feels like Europe is fucking sleep walking into the same scenario we did with Russia…
 
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FuzzyWuzzy

Prophet of Truth
Member
Apr 7, 2019
2,269
Austria
Not sure I want to make a new thread here but it's looking like Germany might be about to embrace China as well:

www.reuters.com

China says it hopes Germany supports peaceful Taiwan 'reunification'

China's top diplomat Wang Yi "hopes and believes" Germany will support China's "peaceful reunification" with Taiwan, the Chinese foreign ministry said in a statement on Saturday.

Feels like America is losing a lot of allies these days.
Lol no?

Especially not with the greens who have been rightfully critical