[Eurogamer] Ukraine calls on PlayStation and Xbox to stop supporting Russian markets.

jblanco · Mar 2, 2022

His Majesty said:
Since many people seem to be arguing under the fallacy that sanctions are an effective tool to incite regime change and democratization, most scientific literature argues the exact opposite.

Targeting autocrats: Economic sanctions and regime change

When it comes to international economic sanctions, the most frequent goal is regime change and democratization. Yet, past experiences suggest that suc…

www.sciencedirect.com

The Adverse Consequences of Economic Sanctions

Global Policy Forum is a policy watchdog that follows the work of the United Nations. We promote accountability and citizen participation in decisions on peace and security, social justice and international law.

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Coercive or Corrosive: The Negative Impact of Economic Sanctions on Democracy

(2010). Coercive or Corrosive: The Negative Impact of Economic Sanctions on Democracy. International Interactions: Vol. 36, No. 3, pp. 240-264.

www.tandfonline.com

"A Hand upon the Throat of the Nation": Economic Sanctions and State Repression, 1976-2001 on JSTOR

Reed M. Wood, "A Hand upon the Throat of the Nation": Economic Sanctions and State Repression, 1976-2001, International Studies Quarterly, Vol. 52, No. 3 (Sep., 2008), pp. 489-513

www.jstor.org

If your goal is to cripple the Russian economy and make the Russian population suffer then of course sanctions are a useful tool. But if you think sanctions will help to overthrow Putin and democratize Russia, history does not support that notion.

Also, if the Russian economy collapses, couldn't that be used as fuel for populism? I have vague memories about hearing about this in high school lol

Something something hyperinflation something rise of Nazism in Germany. But I'm absolutely not well informed.

Btw, I'm legitimately asking before jumping to the conclusion. I'm by no means a history expert. I'm just concerned about sanctions backfiring.

TechnicPuppet · Mar 2, 2022

My company has stopped ties with Russia for now and it's caused major fucking problems. It's the right thing to do though and MS, Sony, Steam etc should follow suit. I'm not sure how they are able still to function there with the sanctions.

Sprat · Mar 2, 2022

Musubi said:
How does this put any pressure on the State itself? I feel like the common Russian civilians are the ones that are just going to be hurt here.

This puts my view too.

It hurts the economy a tiny bit I guess but hurts innocent people more

Maximo · Mar 2, 2022

If Valve cuts off Russia, then its Dota 2 population will die. On a more serious note this feels like a gut punch to the people rather then the State, I am however uneducated when it comes to the effects sanctions have.

LavaBadger · Mar 2, 2022

jblanco said:
Also, if the Russian economy collapses, couldn't that be used as fuel for populism? I have vague memories about hearing about this in high school lol

Something something hyperinflation something rise of Nazism in Germany. But I'm absolutely not well informed.

Btw, I'm legitimately asking before jumping to the conclusion. I'm by no means a history expert. I'm just concerned about sanctions backfiring.

You're describing a completely different historical context. WW1 did tremendous damage to a great number of countries, Germany included. What followed WW1 was further sanctioning and punishment of an already beleaguered German people. This led to the rise of an authoritarian regime that saw everyone as it's enemy.

Russia is already under an authoritarian regime and is starting the aggression towards its neighbors. That regime isn't going to unseat itself. That leaves foreign powers interceding (ie, WW3), or the Russian people removing those people from power. Sanctions are designed to isolate the country for its actions, and ideally therefore encourage the regime to either change its ways (because they find themselves incapable of operating otherwise) or for the people of the country to put enough pressure on their leaders to force the change themselves.

The economy is going to suffer, and those things are going to affect the people and the government alike. The hope would be that both of those things influence change, albeit in different ways, as the alternative (War) is certainly going to be more harmful for everyone involved.

Could the people of Russia look at all of this and say, "Well, this isn't our regime's fault, it is the rest of the world that's to blame", sure, it could happen, but what's the alternative? And is it not worth trying sanctions rather than letting the aggression go unaddressed or jumping to war?

vernacherMV · Mar 2, 2022

Ban Russia yesterday. Then keep the same energy across the board. Ban both Saudi Arabia and the US also for their current actions in Yemen.

Bizzquik · Mar 2, 2022

I would like to see this happen. Please continue putting pressure on Russia.

As a side note, I appreciate Microsoft's approach on cyber-security.
New York Times: "As Tanks Rolled Into Ukraine, So Did Malware. Then Microsoft Entered the War"

gozu · Mar 2, 2022

Maximo said:
If Valve cuts off Russia, then its Dota 2 population will die. On a more serious note this feels like a gut punch to the people rather then the State, I am however uneducated when it comes to the effects sanctions have.

I will attempt to explain it in simple terms for you, and for all those who came here before you to say the same thing:

Step 1. You cut off steam
Step 2. Russian gamers get angry and bored
Step 3. That anger causes them to revolt and overthrow Putin

It's really that simple. People revolt when they are angry. The more angry Russians are at their kleptocrats, the better for Ukraine.

cvbas · Mar 2, 2022

Unsurprising reactions here, but what to expect from a forum where the majority of posters live in a country that will never be the victim of sanctions or invasions?

These sanctions are historically ineffective and only make the lives of those living in already hard conditions worse. Putin invaded a country knowing full well he would be politically massacred by "the West". Banning some videogames and pulling some movie releases won't change shit. If anything, it will only help Putin and his Russia vs The World narrative.

Soap · Mar 2, 2022

cvbas said:
Unsurprising reactions here, but what to expect from a forum where the majority of posters live in a country that will never be the victim of sanctions or invasions?

These sanctions are historically ineffective and only make the lives of those living in already hard conditions worse. Putin invaded a country knowing full well he would be politically massacred by "the West". Banning some videogames and pulling some movie releases won't change shit. If anything, it will only help Putin and his Russia vs The World narrative.

Russia is hardly at risk of invasion? The entire reason we are using sanctions is because we have absolutky no way to deal with a nuclear power militarily. The only hope in this case is that the people get pissed off enough to overthrow their government, and if they don't… Well what's you alternative? To do nothing?

GameAddict411 · Mar 2, 2022

Musubi said:
How does this put any pressure on the State itself? I feel like the common Russian civilians are the ones that are just going to be hurt here.

The pressure comes from the Russian people themselves. Even Dictators are afraid of angry citizens.

2Blackcats · Mar 2, 2022

Lot of bad takes in here.

The Russian government have shut down FB and Twitter. They'd be delighted to shut down any other communication method especially one used by young people like Xbox live and PSN.

What specific sanctions are you talking about?

Soap · Mar 2, 2022

2Blackcats said:
Lot of bad takes in here.

The Russian government have shut down FB and Twitter. They'd be delighted to shut down any other communication method especially one used by young people like Xbox live and PSN.

What specific sanctions are you talking about?

People don't get their news updates through psn and Xbox live. Come on now.

2Blackcats · Mar 2, 2022

Soap said:
People don't get their news updates through psn and Xbox live. Come on now.

People are writing hotel reviews to try and get the message in . Everything helps

Soap · Mar 2, 2022

2Blackcats said:
People are writing hotel reviews to try and get the message in . Everything helps

Okay, so your alternative is that people that play games directly and deliberately engage with Russians? Given all we know about "gaming" culture, I have very little faith that would create an engaging discourse and would probably act as a way for Putin's supporters both inside and outside Russia to spread their propaganda.

GameAddict411 · Mar 2, 2022

His Majesty said:
Since many people seem to be arguing under the fallacy that sanctions are an effective tool to incite regime change and democratization, most scientific literature argues the exact opposite.

Targeting autocrats: Economic sanctions and regime change

When it comes to international economic sanctions, the most frequent goal is regime change and democratization. Yet, past experiences suggest that suc…

www.sciencedirect.com

The Adverse Consequences of Economic Sanctions

Global Policy Forum is a policy watchdog that follows the work of the United Nations. We promote accountability and citizen participation in decisions on peace and security, social justice and international law.

archive.globalpolicy.org

Coercive or Corrosive: The Negative Impact of Economic Sanctions on Democracy

(2010). Coercive or Corrosive: The Negative Impact of Economic Sanctions on Democracy. International Interactions: Vol. 36, No. 3, pp. 240-264.

www.tandfonline.com

"A Hand upon the Throat of the Nation": Economic Sanctions and State Repression, 1976-2001 on JSTOR

Reed M. Wood, "A Hand upon the Throat of the Nation": Economic Sanctions and State Repression, 1976-2001, International Studies Quarterly, Vol. 52, No. 3 (Sep., 2008), pp. 489-513

www.jstor.org

If your goal is to cripple the Russian economy and make the Russian population suffer then of course sanctions are a useful tool. But if you think sanctions will help to overthrow Putin and democratize Russia, history does not support that notion.

So what is the alternative? An all out war?

Hercule · Mar 2, 2022

GameAddict411 said:
The pressure comes from the Russian people themselves. Even Dictators are afraid of angry citizens.

I think this is to easy
Arguably the biggest victims of Stalin and Lenin were their own citizens. If you didn't agree with their methods you and your whole family ended up dead or in the gulag. While those two were on a completely different level of insanity, going against Poetin is still dangerous.

I can't blame a Russian citizen for not wanting to risk their families safety

Jogi · Mar 2, 2022

GameAddict411 said:
So what is the alternative? An all out war?

That's the thing here that I don't get either. Is the world just supposed to watch as Putin takes Ukraine and just be cool with it? I honestly don't know what should be done in this instance.

Dyle · Mar 2, 2022

I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I don't see much value in doing it. A sanction like this would not even remotely register to the Russian government right now and would be borne completely by normal citizens. They're already unable to buy anything on these services because of the SWIFT sanctions. Most network restrictions could easily be avoided with any VPN.

Anya7890 · Mar 2, 2022

100% agreed, of course people will say, but this will only hurt the citizens! and my answer to that is good and hopefully, it will motivate them to yell at thier government!!!

GlamPrime · Mar 2, 2022

I'm in Europe. I game with Russian's regularly. I've been good friends with a few since the early days of XBL.

The love of gaming is universal.

But I also know Ukrainians in real life. Both via work and socially.

Fuck Putin!

Turn off the servers as it will apply additional pressure.

I'm really cut up by the images I'm seeing and the worry expressed to me personally. Even worse since I literally don't have words of comfort for those that I know that are affected by this the war criminal we know as putin.

His Majesty · Mar 2, 2022

GameAddict411 said:
So what is the alternative? An all out war?

I don't know. I'm just telling you what does not work. And that people should stop clinging to the hope that harsh sanctions will inspire the Russian population to rise up. Historically speaking that is very unlikely.

Jogi said:
That's the thing here that I don't get either. Is the world just supposed to watch as Putin takes Ukraine and just be cool with it? I honestly don't know what should be done in this instance.

Me neither. I do think it is important to carefully consider the consequences of going all out on sanctions, including ones like described in this thread whose sole purpose seems to be to inconvenience the civilian population. Sanctions should be imposed to hinder the Russian war effort but bullying the population to pursue some vague fantasy notion of an anti-Putin insurrection should never be a goal unto itself.

Yourfawthaaa · Mar 2, 2022

It needs to be done honestly.

Hercule · Mar 2, 2022

Anya7890 said:
100% agreed, of course people will say, but this will only hurt the citizens! and my answer to that is good and hopefully, it will motivate them to yell at thier government!!!

You would risk the safety of your whole family for a futile attempt at making a protest? The people living in Russia are also victims of its Dictator.

collige · Mar 2, 2022

Scottoest said:
Sincere question then: What do you think is a realistic way to apply severe pressure to a country like Russia in a situation like this if you're not prepared to use physical force, and you're not prepared to use economic force?

This isn't rhetorical - I've thought about it myself. What would you do, that wouldn't be so weak as to be of no use at all?

I don't really have a problem with targeted economic moves like the freezing of oligarch assets, etc. And there's obviously plenty we can and should do in terms of assisting refugees and providing actual humanitarian support to people on the ground affected by the invasion. As it stands, it seems like the current sanctions (which go way beyond just video games ofc) are almost guaranteed to hurt innocent people and may or may not help hurt or stop the guilty people somewhere down the line. I have a hard time seeing how that's not worse than doing nothing.

As for physical force, I think that's pretty warranted given what's going on, but probably not from the US considering we're halfway around the world and we awful track record at trying to play world police. The is one of those situations where UN forces would actually be appropriate imo, but that's obviously not going to happen given the design flaws with how the UN was set up in the first place.

2Blackcats · Mar 2, 2022

Yourfawthaaa said:
It needs to be done honestly.

What needs to be done specifically?

TheChillyAcademic · Mar 2, 2022

I can absolutely see the need to harshly sanction Russia as a rule, they most certainly, or rather the government, deserves it. But I feel like this will only truly hurt fans, the fuck does Putin care if people can't play Elden Ring?

SuikerBrood · Mar 2, 2022

TheChillyAcademic said:
I can absolutely see the need to harshly sanction Russia as a rule, they most certainly, or rather the government, deserves it. But I feel like this will only truly hurt fans, the fuck does Putin care if people can't play Elden Ring?

If people who want to play Elden Ring (and see their economy collapse, and can't watch a movie, and have all sporting events cancelled, etc. etc.) are annoyed enough, they might revolt against the Kremlin. They can't put all 140 million people in jail.

TheChillyAcademic · Mar 2, 2022

SuikerBrood said:
If people who want to play Elden Ring (and see their economy collapse, and can't watch a movie, and have all sporting events cancelled, etc. etc.) are annoyed enough, they might revolt against the Kremlin. They can't put all 140 million people in jail.

If Russian citizens full out revolt, Putin would slaughter them. Their currency is already effectively not worth the paper its printed on, it isn't going to take much more.

Again, these sanctions need to happen yes, but I can at least also see how this would be such a blow to many people.

Good_Day! · Mar 2, 2022

TheChillyAcademic said:
If Russian citizens full out revolt, Putin would slaughter them. Their currency is already effectively not worth the paper its printed on, it isn't going to take much more.

Again, these sanctions need to happen yes, but I can at least also see how this would be such a blow to many people.

Good. Let them die rather than Ukrainian's. There was a saying after wwii that went something like " if you didn't spend 5 month's in a concentration camp you were guilty." Nobody can stop Russia but Russia. They made their bed so let them lay in it.

Deepwater · Mar 2, 2022

Good_Day! said:
Good. Let them die rather than Ukrainian's. There was a saying after wwii that went something like " if you didn't spend 5 month's in a concentration camp you were guilty." Nobody can stop Russia but Russia. They made their bed so let them lay in it.

you crackas are insane

Hercule · Mar 2, 2022

Good_Day! said:
Good. Let them die rather than Ukrainian's. There was a saying after wwii that went something like " if you didn't spend 5 month's in a concentration camp you were guilty." Nobody can stop Russia but Russia. They made their bed so let them lay in it.

This must be satire

SuikerBrood · Mar 2, 2022

TheChillyAcademic said:
If Russian citizens full out revolt, Putin would slaughter them. Their currency is already effectively not worth the paper its printed on, it isn't going to take much more.

Again, these sanctions need to happen yes, but I can at least also see how this would be such a blow to many people.

There are Ukrainian children being bombed. Not playing Elden Ring is like the least of a sacrifice we can expect the Russian people to make.

Good_Day! · Mar 2, 2022

Deepwater said:
you crackas are insane

Racist much?

Hercule said:
This must be satire

Ya hilarious. Screw innocent Ukrainian's. It's the poor Russian's we should all be worrying about dying.

FIREKNIGHT2029 · Mar 2, 2022

Yea Sony and Microsoft should pull our Xbox and PlayStation from Russia. Nintendo as well if they have any offices there.

Hopefully the discomfort that this brings will prompt the Russian people to put more pressure on Putin to end this madness.

I feel bad for regular everyday Russians but this is something that must be done. Ukrainians are dying by the thousands as we speak.

TheChillyAcademic · Mar 2, 2022

Good_Day! said:
Good. Let them die rather than Ukrainian's. There was a saying after wwii that went something like " if you didn't spend 5 month's in a concentration camp you were guilty." Nobody can stop Russia but Russia. They made their bed so let them lay in it.

Condemning the idiocy and delusion that is the invasion of Ukraine is without question. Wishing death on individuals who are protesting that very invasion on the aggressors side is in poor taste. The Ukrainians deserve the empathy here, not the Russians as a whole, my comments refer to the topic at hand specifically.

SuikerBrood said:
There are Ukrainian children being bombed. Not playing Elden Ring is like the least of a sacrifice we can expect the Russian people to make.

Do not attempt to even entertain the notion that any such comparison has been made or even insinuated in my post and you absolutely know that, be better than that.

Servbot24 · Mar 2, 2022

Musubi said:
How does this put any pressure on the State itself? I feel like the common Russian civilians are the ones that are just going to be hurt here.

Not being able to buy the latest video game is not hurting someone in a bad way. But it will contribute to making Russian civilians angry at their government.

Deepwater · Mar 2, 2022

Good_Day! said:
Racist much?

Ya hilarious. Screw innocent Ukrainian's. It's the poor Russian's we should all be worrying about dying.

Listen smooth brain. Its because of dichotomous thinking like this that leads to the permeance of ethnic violence and conflict. Maybe read a fucking history book about the last 200 years of european wars before saying silly things like everyday russians are subject to die because their DICTATOR of a leader decided to invade their neighboring country. They already have a lot of fucking bad history and you fail any humanity or decency in you to legitimize such rhetoric. Nobody should fucking die, and you shouldnt feel so comfortable weighing anybody's life sitting behind that keyboard miles away from war. Fuckin sicko

Sky87 · Mar 2, 2022

Musubi said:
How does this put any pressure on the State itself? I feel like the common Russian civilians are the ones that are just going to be hurt here.

Exactly this. I'm all for sanctions impacting the leadership and the elite (that's the only sanctions that matter), this will just make the common citizens hate the west more which is the opposite of what we need.

Pasha · Mar 2, 2022

Good_Day! said:
Good. Let them die rather than Ukrainian's. There was a saying after wwii that went something like " if you didn't spend 5 month's in a concentration camp you were guilty." Nobody can stop Russia but Russia. They made their bed so let them lay in it.

This is some psycho shit.

Good_Day! · Mar 2, 2022

Deepwater said:
Listen smooth brain. Its because of dichotomous thinking like this that leads to the permeance of ethnic violence and conflict. Maybe read a fucking history book about the last 200 years of european wars before saying silly things like everyday russians are subject to die because their DICTATOR of a leader decided to invade their neighboring country. They already have a lot of fucking bad history and you fail any humanity or decency in you to legitimize such rhetoric. Nobody should fucking die, and you shouldnt feel so comfortable weighing anybody's life sitting behind that keyboard miles away from war. Fuckin sicko

OK moron. I quoted someone who said Putin would kill poor innocent Russian's if they rebelled against him. But instead of Russian's dying to stop Russia the Ukrainian's can die. You need to read up on your history. I don't want anyone dying, but Russian's chose their path. Nobody else.

Zyae · Mar 2, 2022

cvbas said:
Unsurprising reactions here, but what to expect from a forum where the majority of posters live in a country that will never be the victim of sanctions or invasions?

These sanctions are historically ineffective and only make the lives of those living in already hard conditions worse. Putin invaded a country knowing full well he would be politically massacred by "the West". Banning some videogames and pulling some movie releases won't change shit. If anything, it will only help Putin and his Russia vs The World narrative.

The point is to make Russians lives worse so they apply domestic pressure

NinjaScooter · Mar 2, 2022

Good_Day! said:
OK moron. I quoted someone who said Putin would kill poor innocent Russian's if they rebelled against him. But instead of Russian's dying to stop Russia the Ukrainian's can die. You need to read up on your history. I don't want anyone dying, but Russian's chose their path. Nobody else.

"Russians chose their path" what the fuck is with the rhetoric in here? Did people have this same energy for every average American while their country spent the last 20 years bombing and killing all sorts of brown people abroad? Should we have had our economy crippled and lost access to internet/gaming/whatever else during that period?

Artdayne · Mar 2, 2022

Zyae said:
The point is to make Russians lives worse so they apply domestic pressure

How's that going in Cuba?

Deepwater · Mar 2, 2022

Good_Day! said:
OK moron. I quoted someone who said Putin would kill poor innocent Russian's if they rebelled against him. But instead of Russian's dying to stop Russia the Ukrainian's can die. You need to read up on your history. I don't want anyone dying, but Russian's chose their path. Nobody else.

The next time somebody in the middle east says death to america I encourage you to offer your head as tributary

Hercule · Mar 2, 2022

Good_Day! said:
OK moron. I quoted someone who said Putin would kill poor innocent Russian's if they rebelled against him. But instead of Russian's dying to stop Russia the Ukrainian's can die. You need to read up on your history. I don't want anyone dying, but Russian's chose their path. Nobody else.

The Russians didn't choose this path. They are the biggest victims of Lenin and Stalin.

Watchtower · Mar 2, 2022

TheChillyAcademic said:
If Russian citizens full out revolt, Putin would slaughter them. Their currency is already effectively not worth the paper its printed on, it isn't going to take much more.

Again, these sanctions need to happen yes, but I can at least also see how this would be such a blow to many people.

You realize him indiscriminately mowing down his own civilians would be the point of no return, right? At that point he's a full-on tyrant and the Russian people are effectively as trapped as North Koreans (and there's already been chatter of Russia potentially closing off its borders).

The sanctions work under the assumption that even Putin can't withstand a violent uprising by his own people. If he can then shit's far more dire than we realize.

Zyae · Mar 2, 2022

Artdayne said:
How's that going in Cuba?

Has cuba invaded a sovereign nation and slaughtered innocent people?

Good_Day! · Mar 2, 2022

NinjaScooter said:
"Russians chose their path" what the fuck is with the rhetoric in here? Did people have this same energy for every average American while their country spent the last 20 years bombing and killing all sorts of brown people abroad?

Two completely different situations right? Or are you trying to make a point about us all being racist?

NinjaScooter · Mar 2, 2022

Good_Day! said:
Two completely different situations right? Or are you trying to make a point about us all being racist?

Are they? Are some lives worth more than others or something?

[Eurogamer] Ukraine calls on PlayStation and Xbox to stop supporting Russian markets.

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