Did "The Algorithm" kill mass culture?

[entremet]

I remember watching Game of Thrones in its heyday and coming to work on Monday and chatting about the episode. Same with LOST. And then I noticed I don't do this anymore.

Outside of mega hits like Squid Game, I find this rarely happens. All my friends are watching their shows from their own personal "algorithm" suggested by the streaming services.

I think it still exists in music, but with mega stars. A Beyonce album drop still hits. I'm not a Swiftie, but I heard she's similar with that demographic.

So, weirdly, it seems the algorithm is killing a form of community in a sense.

 

[Jawmuncher]

Would it be the "Algorithm" or just the internet in general? As people are now far more able to stay in their very specific corners with no interest in ever leaving them.

 

[Wrexis]

I think Covid contributed too. No more watercooler moments.

I've also mentioned this in other threads but 2019 was the end of many huge pop culture events - Game of Thrones, Star Wars Skywalker Saga, and the MCU Infinity Saga all ended in one year. Nothing really has replaced those on that level.

All of those originated from pre-algorithm as well.

 

[MinerArcaniner]

Yeah, it kinda did.

The streaming services--and the internet in general--have really atomized mass media. Which is ironic, considering how we've never been so connected technologically.

 

[Bushy-Doe Blade]

I don't know about work (due to working remote). My wife says her coworkers suggest shows, but there's no discussions because well… who discusses shows on a monitored MS Teams chat? 😅

That discussion has moved to Tiktok, FB groups, and Instagram, where people plop their two cents on reality tv shows like 90Day or The Circle, or dedicated fan pages on Reddit or Discord. I suppose those discussions now feed into that algorithm.

I talk to my close friends about shows all the time, but not socially in bars or social spaces, because personally I'm still dealing with what the pandemic has left us, and I don't go to those social spaces.

 

[Xando]

I think it has more to do with the fact that there is much a wide range variety nowadays that everyone is watching what they like and only comes together for mega stuff like squid game.

Where you used to have 50 TV shows everyone was picking from now you have 500 which obviously results in a smaller overlap and therefore less discussion.


Also a lot of discussions have moved to platforms like TikTok during the pandemic.

 

[DarthMasta]

Having more and more stuff being produced is what killed it, too much stuff for the masses to keep up with.

 

[julia crawford]

Erm… I think it's just a lot safer to assume that you're not in the conversation than assuming the conversation isn't happening.

 

[Jonathan Lanza]

Perhaps but this kind of thing was going on for a long time so I'm not sure if it's algorithmically driven or not. People have access to a lot more things nowadays and you don't really have to watch or read something you would otherwise have no interest in just because everyone else is. It's very easy to just sorta ignore things nowadays.

 

[KezayJS1]

House of the Dragon was very much one of those watercooler discussion shows where I work. Heck, even X-Men 97 made the rounds a couple of weeks. Maybe it's just the work environment itself has changed from a culture perspective where you're at, or as another user suggested, the conversations very well could be happening but you're just not privy to them.

 

[andymoogle]

There are many more high profile shows today. And streaming leads to people watching whenever they can instead of being forced to a specific time every week.

And also, more people working from home.

 

[tokkun]

Your grandparents probably said the same thing about FDR's fireside chats or The Lone Ranger radio hour.

The cultural relevance of TV shows is waning because young people are watching less TV.

 

[Garrison]

Would it be the "Algorithm" or just the internet in general? As people are now far more able to stay in their very specific corners with no interest in ever leaving them.

Click to shrink...

Internet before social media and google felt a lot more less made to anyones specific tastes and more random. At the end thou, everyones internet experience has been selected for you based on your location and the experience of encountering folks from the other side of the world is generally not that common unless you go out of your way to make that happen. As you say thou, most people have no interest in leaving their corner, unfortunately with that comes the downsides of not being exposed to a wider range of things in life.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I remember watching Game of Thrones in its heyday and coming to work on Monday and chatting about the episode. Same with LOST. And then I noticed I don't do this anymore.

Click to shrink...

People absolutely still do this. I haven't watched HOTD S2 and yet every Sunday whatever happened in the latest episode would pop off on multiple social media apps. And we can definitely expect shows things like Euphoria S2 to dominate discourse week after week.

Erm… I think it's just a lot safer to assume that you're not in the conversation than assuming the conversation isn't happening.

Click to shrink...

💯

 

[entremet]

People absolutely still do this. I haven't watched HOTD S2 and yet every Sunday whatever happened in the latest episode would pop off on multiple social media apps. And we can definitely expect shows things like Euphoria S2 to dominate discourse week after week.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, apps have everything. I'm talking about IRL.

None of my friends have shows we're watching at the time anymore.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yeah, apps have everything. I'm talking about IRL.

None of my friends have shows we're watching at the time anymore.

Click to shrink...

Refer to my the other post I responded to.

 

[exodus]

Nah, the answer is far more simple.

LOST was one of the only shows on network TV in its time that fully committed to serialized storytelling and requires you to not miss an episode. Most other shows on TV were "monster of the week" type deals. It had next to no competition.

 

[Garrison]

I just want to quickly acknowledge that i really like a lot of the threads that entremet makes. You come up with interesting topics all the time I notice.

 

[Dyle]

There are more than 5 TV channels now

 

[tangeu]

I'd say it's more about the divarication of media. Everyone talked about the x-files because it was one of like 4 options to watch at that time. Now everyone with a niche has a something of their own to watch so it's not a universal discussion. Like I wouldn't go into work and be like "Hey did you see this weeks Dead Meat? They've been doing the VHS series!" no one would even know what I'm talking about.

 

[teruterubozu]

Shows get cancelled out of the blue at the drop of a hat these days. There's little incentive to commit. People say networks are "looking for the next Game of Thrones!" but they're really not.

 

[julia crawford]

But also isn't this a lot more interesting? I don't think, if this is indeed happening, that it is killing community.. we can and do find community within and without the smallness of what any of us can be interested in at any given time.

 

[Digital Dinosaur]

Collective conversation still happens but it is more chaotic and arbitrary when and where it happens.

Television created an intense degree of regimented uniformity in the spread of popular culture. A handful of channels, broadcasting the same programs during one block of time repeating every week on the same day. It became unavoidable that people would all be thinking about similar things at the same time.

That said the current environment maybe goes too far in the opposite direction. Humans are built for collective activities and sharing. Things like isolation and the "binge" format distribution of entertainment has really messed with shared experiences.

 

[Mesoian]

I mean, I talked about The Bear and Mr Robot with people at work. The algorithm isn't responsible for you not wanting to discuss things you like with other people.

 

[BossAttack]

I watched GoT in it's heyday and not a single person at work ever talked about it. I only ever discussed it with my law school friends.

 

[entremet]

I watched GoT in it's heyday and not a single person at work ever talked about it. I only ever discussed it with my law school friends.

Click to shrink...

Law firm?

 

[BossAttack]

Law firm?

Click to shrink...

Mhhmmm.

 

[Dary]

I watched GoT in it's heyday and not a single person at work ever talked about it. I only ever discussed it with my law school friends.

Click to shrink...

I went through school in the 90s, university in the 00s, and absolutely no one had these kinds of conversations about any form of media outside of music.

If anything, I've encountered more people who make a point that they never watched [popular thing] than people who have actually wanted to discuss [popular thing].

Always struck me as some weird "office culture" thing.

 

[Alent]

It feels more like the Netflix dump everything at once method is what's killed lots of discussion and watercooler moments, rather than algorithms. Things that are released weekly still get plenty of theorycrafting, chatter etc..

 

[Jimbo Fisher]

I miss the organic nature of how things used to go viral. Word of mouth is such a human quality. I'm not trying to be overly luddite or pessimist, but I do feel like we're missing something with algorithms.

Most of the best music, games, and films I've enjoyed lately I discovered from a friend, not an algorithm. Data driven recommendations have their time and place, but I find that they typically just recommend you more of what you already like. The real joy is finding something new, something you haven't experienced anything like before.

 

[thewienke]

I think it still exists in primary school and somewhat on into college. Once you hit your early 20s it's easy to drop out of the mainstream unless you work in an office or some other job that is heavy with a bunch of other new grads. Which was how it always was before the algorithm.

My first job out of college I mostly had 40 somethings as my coworkers so I've never been able to grown my social life through work. Everyone over like 30 is just too damn busy with kids, family, spouses, etc.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I think the streamers that commit to weakly releases have kept the "water cooler" moments and online speculation alive.

Netflix I think overcomes this with sheer volume. If 100 million people stream your show in the first weekend, they're gonna talk about it. The shows and movies that they want to be big, they put on the front page for everyone, "the algorithm" isn't the reason my grandmother has seen The Perfect Couple.

 

[entremet]

I miss the organic nature of how things used to go viral. Word of mouth is such a human quality. I'm not trying to be overly luddite or pessimist, but I do feel like we're missing something with algorithms.

Most of the best music, games, and films I've enjoyed lately I discovered from a friend, not an algorithm. Data driven recommendations have their time and place, but I find that they typically just recommend you more of what you already like. The real joy is finding something new, something you haven't experienced anything like before.

Click to shrink...

One of the reasons I still go to libraries. You can just find stuff organically there.

 

[Aselith]

I mean GOT only went off the air a few years ago and the Algorithm was already a thing then.

It's not typical to have a cultural phenomenon show going on at all times. Sometimes there is that kind of show and sometimes there isn't. Right now, there's not so people are doing their own niche shows.

 

[hummingW]

Last of Us and House of the dragon season 1 had that same talking about on Monday experience for me

 

[sersteven]

I mean, your first sentence almost contradicts your own point. You said you remember this happening with two mega hits, then said that it only really happens with mega hits anymore.

I think your overall point has merit, but I think it's less about the algorithm, because you'd almost think that logically, because of algs driving people towards content similar to their peers/friends, it'd drive more shared discussion offline. At the very least, I'm sure that's what most of these media orgs hope for, too.
But the issue is that there's just so much MORE content out there now, it self-cannibalizes, outside as you said, mega hits.

The discourse over network television sitcoms I'm sure is long dead. I bet back in the 70s-90s you could get watercooler chatting about the latest weeks episode of the hits. Friends, Seinfeld, etc etc all probably had people talking about latest episodes. But network television is basically dead and to your point, everyone has much more personalized media feeds, thanks also in large part to just having so many more options, people can be more picky.

I personally also think that capitalism has been driving the overall quality of most content down on average, as organizations continue to cut corners, pay workers less, rely on mass automation and steer away from the traditional arts towards computer generated content (CGI over hand drawn, or miniature sets, real life sets, etc etc ad nauseum). So we're also just getting less 'viral worthy' content on top of all this. But that's just again personal disillusion with media as a whole, especially as I get older, and we continue to see massive corporate consolidation.

End note, which others have already touched on. Communities are definitely still having these live meta discourses of current events, media and non, but it's almost all online now. Snapchats/IG between friends. Discord servers which are all private and unquantifiable. Tiktoks which I see this A LOT, tons of people posting viral reactions to live events, it's like a huge part of that culture. We're also increasingly not spending time with eachother anymore, period. It's a known quantity. We just all hang out less, spend less time in social places.

 

[boontobias]

Watch sports instead and join that convo

 

[Revolver_Ocelot]

It feels more like the Netflix dump everything at once method is what's killed lots of discussion and watercooler moments, rather than algorithms. Things that are released weekly still get plenty of theorycrafting, chatter etc..

Click to shrink...

Yep, that's what I feel as well.

 

[Doug Dimmadome]

There are currently 55,000+ YouTube channels with at least 1 million subscribers.

Every little niche has gotten so large in its own right that I'm not even sure it's fair to call them niches anymore. The internet allows you to be connected with people who like all the same things you do - which is awesome, btw. But I do think it's basically impossible for something to achieve that widespread ubiquity of the 20th century.

Until I started dating my girlfriend, I legitimately had no idea how popular Taylor Swift was. And she hadn't heard of Avengers Endgame. Both of these things seemed impossible to us - like, we struggled to believe each other.

I go back and forth on whether or not this is a net positive. On the one hand, you have the ability to be connected to a massive audience of people who all love the same thing(s) you do, which is awesome. On the other, I feel like it had the ability to cause a flanderization effect, where things start to become caricatures of themselves.

 

[Doug Dimmadome]

House of the Dragon was very much one of those watercooler discussion shows where I work. Heck, even X-Men 97 made the rounds a couple of weeks. Maybe it's just the work environment itself has changed from a culture perspective where you're at, or as another user suggested, the conversations very well could be happening but you're just not privy to them.

Click to shrink...

This quote could be enough to get me to apply for a job at your company. The only thing my coworkers are interested in talking about is reality TV. I usually end up just sitting there quietly and keeping to myself

 

[Nordic4tKnight]

There are more than 5 TV channels now

Click to shrink...

Yep, pop culture has been blurring from being a monoculture since the 90s. The internet just accelerated things. See the example by one of Plinkett's (rlm)old reviews.

View: https://youtu.be/RiHnqv098LY?si=QaLQBMrcYPD30cjd&t=419

 

[curiouscharles]

yup, it sure did.

i've been fighting it recently.

no more reels / tiktok, only use instagram for messaging, delete spotify.

trying very hard to de-algorithm my life, and so far it's been great [the way I listen to music now in particular is strangely WAY more satisfying].

got an account to are.na and building that out, etc.

I miss the organic nature of how things used to go viral. Word of mouth is such a human quality. I'm not trying to be overly luddite or pessimist, but I do feel like we're missing something with algorithms.

Most of the best music, games, and films I've enjoyed lately I discovered from a friend, not an algorithm. Data driven recommendations have their time and place, but I find that they typically just recommend you more of what you already like. The real joy is finding something new, something you haven't experienced anything like before.

Click to shrink...

same.

nothing about the algorithm is organic.

people are being fed their taste, style, and opinions via an algorithm [let's face it, mostly via short form media like TikTok / reels / influencers / etc].

it just feels like nothing is "discovered" anymore, and everybody is just liking the same things because it's what is being pushed by the algorithm and it has lost any sense of authenticity and thus value to me.

i'm particularly sensitive to this happening in the world of fashion [my industry], which is supposed to be about exploring and expressing individuality [LOL].

 

[red_shift_ltd]

I miss the organic nature of how things used to go viral. Word of mouth is such a human quality. I'm not trying to be overly luddite or pessimist, but I do feel like we're missing something with algorithms.

Most of the best music, games, and films I've enjoyed lately I discovered from a friend, not an algorithm. Data driven recommendations have their time and place, but I find that they typically just recommend you more of what you already like. The real joy is finding something new, something you haven't experienced anything like before.

Click to shrink...

Kinda agree there, I want to find more munic I'd like outside of my usual genres but the recommended feeds on Apple music are usually very very samey but low quality imitations. Like most 'focus music' is just cut and paste lo fi beats.

I feel like 'the algorithm ' is shorthand for 'good enough' and for something truly special you need to seek in out yourself.

 

[Vourlis]

Yes. It further divides us and creates ponds.

In the same way that heavy moderation does.

 

[echoshifting]

No, there were tons of factors that delineated exposure based on interest well before algorithmic content

Arguably, it was the internet itself that did it

 

[Reflecting Sky]

More homogenization, more options and therefore issues regarding discoveribility. Like it's great to have access to a lot of things, but it's also a double-edged sword. Things used to have more impact and significance, things used to be cultural events. We're living in an age of throw-away culture.

 

[The Albatross]

The internet started to kill mass culture, I'm down with "The 1990s were the last decade" pop-theory, and the personalization/recommendation algorithm was the last bit of dirt dumped on top of the casket.

Mass culture has been pretty much dead for about 20 years. Game of Thrones was sort of the rigor mortis of the monoculture, but also the things that contributed to Game of Thrones success were the paul bearers of monoculture. Game of Thrones launched in 2011, it really took off by 2012, 2013, during the confluence of a half-dozen other trends in media consumption.

1. VoD home streaming, both supply side and demand side.
   1. After about ~10 years of a mess of in-home digital, internet-delivered streaming, most of which was led by piracy, HBO figured their shit out with HBO Go / HBO Now
   2. In the US, the Xbox was ubiquitous by 2011, and the Xbox 360 was already in the home of basically every prime demographic that wanted to watch a show about dragons and sexy incest and murder. If you were 16 - 40, you had an Xbox 360 in your house and knew how to install the HBO Go app on it and knew how to use your parents HBO account or your buddy's HBO account.
2. Early Silo-ization of pop-culture through podcasts, reddit, and forums, which were specialized, but not too specialized
   1. Podcasts began their second boom in ~2012, and the idea of podcasts dedicated or partially dedicated to a television show was brand fucking new, and people loved it.
   2. Forums still existed so sites like AWikiOfIceAndFire and all of the others still existed from the early-mid 2000s web forum heyday, and weren't completely subsumed by transient bull shit that eats them alive and they have no permanence (TikTok, Reels, Shorts). The Written word was still a media format that could survive on the internet. If you were a person who discovered Game of THrones in ~2013 and got really into it all of a sudden you'd realize like, hold on, there's thriving lore communities going back to 1998 for this series....... and then you're stumbling into revelations about Jon Snow and you're like, holy shit... I NEED to watch/read more. That same thing does not exist in the same way anymore because media is too transient.
   3. Twitter probably peaked as a communal media engagement platform. In 2012, it still felt like you could watch a show on TV and watch it with 100,000 other people on Twitter at the same time, in real time, and have authentic reactions with other people. The recommendation systems on Twitter killed that, so instead you have an audience that is a mile wide, 20,000,000 people, but an inch deep.

These things contributed to Game of Thrones being as big as it was, but they're also the things that have prevented anything else from ever being like that again.

 

[BossAttack]

I went through school in the 90s, university in the 00s, and absolutely no one had these kinds of conversations about any form of media outside of music.

If anything, I've encountered more people who make a point that they never watched [popular thing] than people who have actually wanted to discuss [popular thing].

Always struck me as some weird "office culture" thing.

Click to shrink...

Yep, even sports, which is far more acceptable to publicly fan and discuss, is not something I've encountered too much discussion in the workplace. At the barbershop, most definitely. But at work, even after a super bowl, people are mostly like, "you see the game?" "Yep." "That half-time show was alright." "Yep."

End.

 

[nsilvias]

no. the internet allowing sub cultures to be more visible killed monoculture. monoculture mainly existed in the past because it was the most accesible shit the average person could visibly see existed. the death of monoculture has been a good 2 decades in the making.

 

[GamerJM]

The internet and modern entertainment options have hurt this a lot but not completely killed it. I think a couple of recent things that felt like they permeated the modern general consciousness are the Barbenheimer phenomenon and the Kendrick vs. Drake beef.