• Light/Dark

DF HDR Analysis : RDR2 has Fake HDR (update: new HDR fix update 14th May)

Reader mode
May 15th HDR Analysis video from EvilBoris added
  • Index
    • Mr Delabee

    Mr Delabee

    Member
    Oct 25, 2017
    1,166
    UK
    Era's very own EvilBoris is now contributing to Digital Foundry and here's his first article.

    Based on the video output of Xbox One X, the output is clearly derived from the SDR image and is not actually rendered with any kind of high dynamic range. Yes, we can hit a max 500 nits, but this is with the HDR calibration ramped up to the max, artificially boosting peak brightness from what is likely a 100 nit source image. The game's recommended 100 setting for LCD screens would see all of our comparison shots on this page present in a completely monochrome manner, signifying an image that is, effectively, an SDR image.

    This is not the first game to present us with what you might call 'fake' HDR - earlier this year the Xbox One port of Nier Automata also pulled a similar trick, effectively transplanting the standard dynamic range image into an 'HDR container'. Once active, your screen registers an HDR output from the console, but it just contains the SDR image within it. All of our tests suggests the same thing is happening in Red Dead 2 on both Xbox and PlayStation systems.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Full analysis on DF.
    https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2018-whats-up-with-red-dead-redemption-2s-hdr

    Also congratulations on hooking up with DF, your HDR stuff was always spot on and hopefully DF will give you more attention.

    MAY 15th HDR Update Video from EvilBoris.

     
    Last edited:
  • Index
    • Cincaid

    Cincaid

    Member
    Oct 28, 2017
    687
    Sweden
    Well that's a bummer. Is this something that can be fixed with a patch, or would the work involved be too much? Also, I have not started playing yet, but should I just turn HDR off for RDR2?
     
    NikkiNailZ

    NikkiNailZ

    Member
    Oct 27, 2017
    159
    Disappointing. Kinda weird that a AAA title like this has such lacklustre HDR-support.
    Sony titles are still king of HDR this gen.
     
    Serein

    Serein

    Member
    Mar 7, 2018
    2,477
    I thought we'd see EvilBoris joining DF and I'm glad to see its happened. I'm fairly new to the HDR malarkey and his postings here have been extremely useful in getting my head around it.

    Don't have RDR 2 yet but this is disappointing to see, especially from Rockstar. Well implemented HDR would have been a great addition to the game. I wonder why it's like this? Is it genuinely that devs are still so unfamiliar with HDR that they're still figuring out how to implement it properly?

    Hopefully there'll be a patch incoming to address this.
     
    EvilBoris

    EvilBoris

    Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
    Verified
    Oct 29, 2017
    17,247
    Cincaid said:
    Well that's a bummer. Is this something that can be fixed with a patch, or would the work involved be too much? Also, I have not started playing yet, but should I just turn HDR off for RDR2?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    I suspect it won't be fixed as it's unlikely it is a bug or mistake. I suspect it's directly attached to the method of colour grading they will have used to get that cinematic look.

    Disabling it probably the easier option.
     
    P40L0

    P40L0

    Member
    Jun 12, 2018
    8,564
    Italy
    Wow, this is a big let down for a game of this caliber.
    And I also don't think they could "patch" it anytime soon as this means they would have to totally reimplement HDR from scratch.

    Anyway, setting the in-game HDR Brightness to 350 on a properly calibrated X1X/LG OLED still looks more than good, and better than SDR.
     
    Last edited:

    Melubas

    Member
    Jan 4, 2018
    203
    I've been fiddling with the HDR calibration and the suggested 100 brightness for my ks8000 seems way too dark. I cranked it up to 250. What do you guys use? Is it any point in using it or should I just turn it off?
     
    RestEerie

    RestEerie

    Banned
    Aug 20, 2018
    13,618
    HDR is always gonna be a difficult beast. Only a small subset of a subset of owners will be able to enable it. And that's not withstanding the technical hurdles (correct HDMI ports, enable settings in TV, etc). And then now we have 'sub-par' implementation in games.

    Even on games with excellent HDR implementation, it's hard to tell people without HDR about it.
     
    artsi

    artsi

    Member
    Oct 26, 2017
    2,930
    Finland
    RestEerie said:
    HDR is always gonna be a difficult beast. Only a small subset of a subset of owners will be able to enable it. And that's not withstanding the technical hurdles (correct HDMI ports, enable settings in TV, etc). And then now we have 'sub-par' implementation in games.

    Even on games with excellent HDR implementation, it's hard to tell people without HDR about it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    It will be as common as HD resolutions now, just takes time to transition to new display hardware.
     
    WordsintheWater

    WordsintheWater

    Member
    Oct 25, 2017
    8,362
    Welp, time to turn this off then. Really disappointed in this, one of the biggest games of the year and it falls this short in the implementation.
     
    RestEerie

    RestEerie

    Banned
    Aug 20, 2018
    13,618
    artsi said:
    It will be as common as HD resolutions now, just takes time to transition to new display hardware.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    i don't think it will be as common. Unlike SD to HD which is a big jump that even a layman like my mum can notice, a game/video with and without HDR is too subtle of an effect to be notice by the general consumer.
     
    Vishmarx

    Vishmarx

    Banned
    Oct 26, 2017
    5,043
    So much for all the "get a better tv" "learn calibration" "works for me" . You whats better though ? xb1 version doesnt even have an option to disable it.
     
    Moose the Mooche

    Moose the Mooche

    User-Requested Ban
    Banned
    Oct 27, 2017
    1,538
    Netherlands
    Thats..... pretty lame.

    Not a gamebreaker ofc but a bit dissapointing because of what looker this game is and HDR could lift that to an ever higher level.
    Hope they provide some sort of solution in the future. This game could benefit immensly from HDR.

    Vishmarx said:
    xb1 version doesnt even have an option to disable it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Yeah this annoys me as well. I just want to toggle that shit in the game. I know from Imp the Dimp that the Ps4 Pro version does have that toggle.
    I cant even adjust the brightness of this game even if i turn off the HDR in the X1 menu. The game keeps 'thinking' that i have HDR enabled or something
     
    Bedameister

    Bedameister

    Member
    Oct 26, 2017
    5,976
    Germany
    I still think the game looks fantastic so I guess I'll leave it on.

    But is there an easy quick way to compare how the game looks with and without HDR turned on (general question)
     
    Jiraiya

    Jiraiya

    Member
    Oct 27, 2017
    10,604
    Disappointing...but it still looks better on than off on my screen. So weird for rockstar to be so laborious with this title only to half ass hdr.
     
    RestEerie

    RestEerie

    Banned
    Aug 20, 2018
    13,618
    Zappy said:
    It really, really isn't. Its a huge difference.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    please..it's a HUGE difference to you and the hardcore peeps.

    Run a game or a video with and without HDR to your mum or uncle. Or the '2 games (COD, Madden) per year' casuals. Their answer is the representation of the general consumer. Not the hardcore native pixel counting audience
     
    MosquitoSmasher

    MosquitoSmasher

    Banned
    Oct 26, 2017
    8,992
    It's a real bummer. I look at the sky and then compare that to FH4 and man what a difference. The sky in FH4 really shines, looks spectacular and vastly different than with HDR off. In RDR2 it doesn't make a difference at all. It's actually worse.

    Very similar to Nier with its terrible HDR.
     
    Vishmarx

    Vishmarx

    Banned
    Oct 26, 2017
    5,043
    Waffle said:
    Doesn't seem to explain why people find it more washed out.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    hdr operates on a different/ higher color range. games have to be properly mapped according to it even if it isnt using all 10-bits (loads of games dont). this just seems like they added a trigger to turn it on and did absolutely nothing else.

    Jailer of Hope said:
    You can disable it in the advanced settings.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    wait what?
    cant check rnow but ps4's option is right at the top . theres absolutely no reason why it should be elsewhere in xb1
     
    Kenzodielocke

    Kenzodielocke

    Member
    Oct 25, 2017
    13,302
    Bedameister said:
    I still think the game looks fantastic so I guess I'll leave it on.

    But is there an easy quick way to compare how the game looks with and without HDR turned on (general question)
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    On PS4/Pro you can just turn it on and off and compare it like that, on Xbox I think you need to do that system wide which seems to be a hassle.
     

    Deleted member 41178

    User requested account closure
    Banned
    Mar 18, 2018
    2,903
    Moose the Mooche said:
    Thats..... pretty lame.

    Not a gamebreaker ofc but a bit dissapointing because of what looker this game is and HDR could lift that to an ever higher level.
    Hope they provide some sort of solution in the future. This game could benefit immensly from HDR.



    Yeah this annoys me as well. I just want to toggle that shit in the game. I know from Imp the Dimp that the Ps4 Pro version does have that toggle.
    I cant even adjust the brightness of this game even if i turn off the HDR in the X1 menu. The game keeps 'thinking' that i have HDR enabled or something
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Brightness setting is there for me on the X. With HDR on it's the HDR calibration setting, with it off it's the standard setting with the Rockstar logo.
     
    345

    345

    Member
    Oct 30, 2017
    8,473
    i don't know if this explains why this makes HDR look so much worse than just turning it off — maybe how the TV interprets the artificially stretched data and applies it to settings designed for games with legitimately more visual information?

    but in any case, yeah, this game looks much better in SDR on my TV, and i'm glad to know i wasn't going mad.
     
    OP
    OP
    Mr Delabee

    Mr Delabee

    Member
    Oct 25, 2017
    1,166
    UK
    Moose the Mooche said:
    Wait what? Where can i find this advanced settings? I have been searching thousands of times
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Hit the guide button on pad, goto System (cog at the right) then settings, display & sound, video output, video modes, uncheck allow HDR10.

    You will have to just close and reopen the game if you have changed this whilst playing.

    Edit- was beaten by about an hour....god I'm so slow sometimes.
     

    Zappy

    Banned
    Nov 2, 2017
    3,738
    RestEerie said:
    please..it's a HUGE difference to you and the hardcore peeps.

    Run a game or a video with and without HDR to your mum or uncle. Or the '2 games (COD, Madden) per year' casuals. Their answer is the representation of the general consumer. Not the hardcore native pixel counting audience
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    A few years ago I was in a department store. I'd never heard of HDR. I wasn't TV shopping. My wife certainly did not know what HDR was and certainly did not want to go near a new TV. However, she was looking at a new toaster but suddenly was wowed by a TV with such a beautiful image that neither of us understood what was happening. It was an early HDR demo on an OLED TV.

    Now - I've shown HDR to family who have no idea what it is, and they kept saying "its so rich - its like you are looking through a window straight into the picture".

    HDR is a massive difference when done well.
     
    Moose the Mooche

    Moose the Mooche

    User-Requested Ban
    Banned
    Oct 27, 2017
    1,538
    Netherlands
    Mr Delabee said:
    Hit the guide button on pad, goto System (cog at the right) then settings, display & sound, video output, video modes, uncheck allow HDR10.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Yeah i got that. But my game keeps saying that i play in HDR. So i cant use the slider for brightness since it doesnt appear for me.. its very odd

    RolandOfGilead said:
    Brightness setting is there for me on the X. With HDR on it's the HDR calibration setting, with it off it's the standard setting with the Rockstar logo.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    You have the HDR on-off toggle as well in the RDR2 menu? Or does it change when you turn it off in the system menu?
     
    Dinjooh

    Dinjooh

    The Fallen
    Oct 25, 2017
    2,988
    Zappy said:
    A few years ago I was in a department store. I'd never heard of HDR. I wasn't TV shopping. My wife certainly did not know what HDR was and certainly did not want to go near a new TV. However, she was looking at a new toaster but suddenly was wowed by a TV with such a beautiful image that neither of us understood what was happening. It was an early HDR demo on an OLED TV.

    Now - I've shown HDR to family who have no idea what it is, and they kept saying "its so rich - its like you are looking through a window straight into the picture".

    HDR is a massive difference when done well.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    I've tried a bunch of HDR on my screen so far, haven't really been able to spot a clear difference. I think I see one, but that might just be placebo. Anywho, definitely not as big a thing for me as it seems to be for others.
     
    Bedameister

    Bedameister

    Member
    Oct 26, 2017
    5,976
    Germany
    Kenzodielocke said:
    On PS4/Pro you can just turn it on and off and compare it like that, on Xbox I think you need to do that system wide which seems to be a hassle.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I have the game on the X. But maybe I'll try it with some other games on the Pro
    P40L0 said:
    Xbox Settings -> Display -> Video Settings -> Advanced options -> Untick HDR
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Alright, I might try that.
    But isn't it also possible to look at screenshots with SDR and HDR. Isn't that a fair comparison as well?
     
    Yautja_Warrior

    Yautja_Warrior

    Member
    Oct 25, 2017
    12,731
    United Kingdom
    That explains a lot then. I set mine to the max 500 for it just to look half decent and not oddly dull, like it is at the recommended onscreen information says to set it but it was still clearly not as HDR should be.

    I'll seems like 500 is the best option if you plan to leave it on. My TV is calibrated well, so it doesn't wash out the colours or anything. Still I hope Rockstar can fix / improve HDR in a future patch.
     
    Reader mode
    You must log in or register to reply here.