Denial of gender recognition to criminals or other disliked individuals?

[BeI]

It's the sort of thing that pops up when there is a criminal that happens to be trans in the news: dead-naming and saying that people like that don't deserve to be treated as their preferred gender, etc. Naturally the individual is typically unlikeable because they have committed some crime, but does that make it any less bad?

Even without the crime aspect, my mother-in-law (UK) has a trans niece that she will refuse to acknowledge as female because of a drug addiction and some other stuff she doesn't like. She literally stifles a laugh every time she has to say the niece's actual name, but usually just dead-names her instead when talking about her.

Is it a dog whistle hiding behind justified anger at someone? How do you argue the gender aspect of the situation without getting labelled "pro-crime" or something like that?

 

[SageShinigami]

TBH this stuff is just people showing their ass. Someone being shitty or a criminal shouldn't give others carte blanche to be transphobic, homophobic, fatphobic, sexist, or racist.

 

[JigglesBunny]

If a cisgendered person commits a crime, nobody switches up and starts referring to them by different gendered pronouns as punishment.

It's pure transphobia, pure and simple. It suggests that people don't really believe that someone is truly their identified gender and it makes that recognition conditional based on good behavior. There's no two ways about it, it's transphobia. Anyone arguing otherwise is arguing in bad faith and in defense of transphobia.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Your mother-in-law is a piece of shit.

And yes, denying gender recognition to a criminal is just as bad as doing the same to someone with no criminal record. Not just because everyone deserves to have their identity respected but because disrespecting a trans person because they are a criminal is also disrespecting all trans people in general.

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

Don't do that shit to ANYONE. And don't go looking for excuses as to when it's okay to do so "because they deserve it."

By the bye if your mother in law deadnames someone just react with bafflement and pretend you fear she's getting dementia.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

Society has a bad habit of forgoing peoples rights if they are a criminal. They deserved it etc

 

[AncientReptileBrain]

you see people telling on themselves all the fucking time when it comes to perceived physical faux-pas. seemingly progressive people often have no problem picking on people's bodies if they're one of the bad guys.

 

[Fiction]

If you aren't calling Hitler she because he's an evil bastard, apparently you think trans people don't deserve the same respect as Hitler so ......

 

[BlackGoku03]

Assholes being transphobic. Really all it comes down to.

I thought this was happening with Ezra Miller as people were getting banned for calling them he. But Miller accepts all pronouns so I'm still confused as to why people were banned for that.

 

[gyaru]

it's also weird because trans people can be awful people too, it's not an attribute exclusive to cis people so doing it because "they don't deserve it" is like???

 

[nsilvias]

people like to insult people who they perceive to be bad/criminals. people are ass holes. they think it gives them permission to be mask off

 

[Ramathevoice]

In countries with punitive rather than rehabilitative views on justice and incarceration, people tend to very easily deny dignity to anyone with a perceived moral failing. It's why so many countries can treat their prison pop like shit and no-one bats an eye.

 

[Deleted member 14567]

It's the sort of thing that pops up when there is a criminal that happens to be trans in the news: dead-naming and saying that people like that don't deserve to be treated as their preferred gender, etc. Naturally the individual is typically unlikeable because they have committed some crime, but does that make it any less bad?

Even without the crime aspect, my mother-in-law (UK) has a trans niece that she will refuse to acknowledge as female because of a drug addiction and some other stuff she doesn't like. She literally stifles a laugh every time she has to say the niece's actual name, but usually just dead-names her instead when talking about her.

Is it a dog whistle hiding behind justified anger at someone? How do you argue the gender aspect of the situation without getting labelled "pro-crime" or something like that?

Click to shrink...

Its based off negativity. When a person has done something seen as heinous in society or among us their peers, people will drop their inhibitors and will say stuff that they believe belittles or de-maculate/feminize that person.

We have a thing/saying in the UK and it's pretty funny but sad at the same time. An Englishman would probably his follow Englishman a "C*nt", but when it's a Black person, he's mostly like add the word "Black" in front of it.

 

[OrangeNova]

They're looking for excuses to be shitty.

If someone is a garbage person, and they're trans... It's gonna sting more if I insult them and recognize who they are.

(just incase this is read wrong I mean from this that I will gender someone correctly when I call them a garbage person.)

 

[Ultimate Bear Cub]

Inflicting trauma seems to be the only tool society believes in when "rehabilitating" people.

 

[Android Sophia]

If you deny someone's gender based off perceived or real sins, that makes you a transphobe.

 

[Pirateluigi]

It's telling on themselves. What they are essentially saying is "I don't really believe trans women are women, I just call them that because it is expected of me. As soon as society allows it, I will go right back to denying their gender."

 

[Kyuuji]

Trans identities aren't conditional on good behaviour. Seeing them as such exhibits both prejudice and ignorance.

 

[Shroki]

Their gender identity has nothing to do with why they're assholes. By failing to use the correct pronouns, you're not just personally insulting them, you're insulting everyone else.

 

[Yams]

Nah fuck that. You don't get to treat people like that all because they did something wrong

 

[It’s Time To Go]

Your mother in law sounds like a transphobe. You can't make rights conditional or they're not rights./

 

[808s & Villainy]

just people being assholes

 

[Lost Lemurian]

It's the same as breaking a minority group into "the good ones" and "[slur]s".

It frames them as othered by default, and holds their rights hostage by inferring that any transgression can land them back into the category of second class citizens.

 

[CeVee]

It's not a conditional thing. No matter the reason or excuse she tries to give, your aunt is being a transphobe. The person being a criminal, having serious flaws, or being an asshole is never an excuse to mistreat/be bigoted towards them, no matter how much people seem to want believe it is.

You're not being pro crime by pointing this out and don't let your m-I-l deflect her shitty behavior on you by trying to make you the 'bad guy'. Just explain your reasoning and position to her in a calm but frank and firm manner.

Don't 'attack her character' (give her no excuses or chance to play the victim) in the process, just explain why dead naming itself is unacceptable.

 

[Like the hat?]

It's gross and it shows you what people really think in regards to gender and identity.

 

[ClickyCal']

Nothing more to add than what's been said already by every other post but agreement. Your MiL is just a transphobe.

 

[.exe]

Even "bad" people deserve basic dignity and human rights.

 

[Digital Dinosaur]

People like to indulge in how they really want to treat people when it's targeted at a socially acceptable target.

It requires a good amount of character to treat someone you believe is terrible, with fairness.

This is the sort of context which reveals who is just behaving "well" because they are being forced to by social context.

 

[Tawpgun]

My favorite is when people have to put forth a lot of mental effort to dead name or use wrong pronouns.

I think I saw a clip compilation from Crowders show, forget who they were talking about but it was a trans person who was very passing. And they kept tripping over their words because intuitevely... they knew what to call the person but to play to their audience they kept misgendering them and fucking up doing so lol.

 

[julia crawford]

This is very frequent imo. I see it in this forum a lot, though it seems like people won't go as far as to deadname or misgender someone because it seems like folks have attuned to the social risk of acting like transphobes in this forum, but you still see it sometimes. However it commonly happens a lot with other kinds of dehumanization, such as fatphobia or misogyny.

My guess is that those people still want to be able to be transphobic, and will take any opportunity they feel allows them to say that kind if shit. I don't think people change what they say because they don't like the person. Or, i don't think that's what happens most of the time. And even in those cases, it doesn't make a difference.

God the thing that really puts a rock in my sock is when people act like it's allyship to say things like "this mother **** doesn't deserve trans rights like the rest of trans people do", like... what kind of fucked up shit is that.

 

[KillstealWolf]

Get ready for a lot of this with The Flash coming out soon regarding Ezra Miller.

 

[Soap]

How do you argue it without being labelled pro crime? Huh? I just wouldn't bother because it's all just a predisposition to incarcerated groups. The argument is complete shit by your mother in law.

I honestly thought this was going to be about what jail a trans man or woman spends their time in but this is another level of stupid. Dead naming someone for taking drugs is insane.

 

[mbpm]

What was that thing King said, an injustice here is an injustice everywhere? Something like that here. There's really no reason to go to misgendering as an insult when there are o other criticisms to be made.

 

[Beefsquid]

Denying someone's gender identity because they're a bad person or do bad things just tells me you only support trans people if you like the particular person. It's a little favor you give out to the special ones who fall on your good side. Recognition of their identity is a favor you can withdraw at any time.

It denies the established fact trans people are real and valid and exist even if they are a piece of shit. Cis people are still gendered correctly even when they murder someone. So yeah, your MIL is being very transphobic.

 

[DryCreek]

.

 

[Rosebud]

It's just transphobia

 

[NinjaScooter]

Would your mother in law call Bill Cosby the N word?

 

[Arkanim94]

Just transphobic garbage.

 

[Apollo]

Respect the gender identity of everybody. Period. There can be no exceptions.

 

[Amnixia]

TBH this stuff is just people showing their ass. Someone being shitty or a criminal shouldn't give others carte blanche to be transphobic, homophobic, fatphobic, sexist, or racist.

Click to shrink...

Glad this is the first post, 100% correct

 

[Katbobo]

it comes down to them thinking that respecting a trans person's gender is a privilege and not a right. yet that isn't applied to cis people. as a cif woman, if i got arrested no one would start referring to me as a man, yet that wouldn't be a given for someone who is trans despite our gender equally being an intrinsic part of both of us.

so yeah it's really just a clear look at how they actually view trans people and trans rights.

 

[Art_3]

I'm used to this phenomenon with black people,same method.
The good black friend vs the n-word
Unless the person is your "pet friend" (like some white people treat their black colleagues), you're just a rabid animal that deserves to be mocked

 

[I am a Bird]

No that's not okay, your mother in law is just a sentient pile of trash that will use any excuse to harm people.

 

[Hyun Sai]

TBH this stuff is just people showing their ass. Someone being shitty or a criminal shouldn't give others carte blanche to be transphobic, homophobic, fatphobic, sexist, or racist.

Click to shrink...

Good luck with that on any Trump thread ^^

 

[ReplacementPelican]

It's the sort of thing that pops up when there is a criminal that happens to be trans in the news: dead-naming and saying that people like that don't deserve to be treated as their preferred gender, etc. Naturally the individual is typically unlikeable because they have committed some crime, but does that make it any less bad?

Even without the crime aspect, my mother-in-law (UK) has a trans niece that she will refuse to acknowledge as female because of a drug addiction and some other stuff she doesn't like. She literally stifles a laugh every time she has to say the niece's actual name, but usually just dead-names her instead when talking about her.

Is it a dog whistle hiding behind justified anger at someone? How do you argue the gender aspect of the situation without getting labelled "pro-crime" or something like that?

Click to shrink...

In answer to the first question, it absolutely is.

In the high-profile cases there've been in the UK; they do it because they hate trans people, they want to deny rights to trans people and to do that they focus on the identities of criminals to achieve a combination of; a) arguing uninterrupted, as people don't want to be seen 'defending' a criminal, especially if a heinous crime; b) to signal boost these cases implying trans people are any more dangerous than everyone else.

In answer to your second question, you don't. It's a trap. They're trying to make people 'defend' people that have done awful crimes so that they can hit you around the head with it and use it as evidence to people without a dog in the fight that this is what 'your side' preoccupies themselves with. Defending dangerous criminals. The ensuing argument then helps them further signal boost the case, implicitly pushing the idea that trans people are dangerous.

 

[Surakian]

Criminals don't deserve respect but they should still have their pronouns respected.

 

[Nepenthe]

I mean, that's just plain ol' transphobia.

 

[Lukar]

It doesn't matter if someone's a criminal or asshole. Everyone - everyone - deserves the basic respect of being seen as the gender they are.

 

[SageShinigami]

Good luck with that on any Trump thread ^^

Click to shrink...

Fatphobia is definitely one most people care the least about.

 

[RiOrius]

The closest to this I can think of is that one time a mass shooter tried to claim being gender neutral because he thought it would get the DA to go easy on him or it would make the LGBT community look bad or something. A lot of people called BS on it immediately, and it was quickly confirmed to be nonsense.

Like, I can maybe understand some skepticism from the public when a criminal "suddenly" claims to be transgender (Chelsea Manning got a lot of that when she transitioned IIRC, in no small part politically motivated by those who opposed her leaking in the first place), but it's not like we're privy to anyone's therapy schedule or whatever.