Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,733
We're running in circles now...

We're running in circles because you haven't answered the question and after I explained to you that all Nintendo titles are handicapped because they're physical copies only. How on earth is that going to make the YTD top 20 against multi-platform third party titles with full physical and digital sales? Please tell me on the list of the YTD Top 20 what you expected Paper Mario to outsell after one month of partial data.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,703
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that other people were right about him being wrong, but I'm not going to pretend like he doesn't have official/legitimate information on PlayStation and Xbox hardware, nor am I going to pretend that Tom Henderson leaks things on the scale that MLID does.

That's because someone like Tom Henderson is generally going to say something when they are fairly confident in their sources (like the ps5 pro controller, or the ps5 pro, or the Portal) rather than just throw all the shit at the wall to engagement farm off of people's hopes and dreams and/or tribalism.
 
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jblanco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,555
We're running in circles because you haven't answered the question and after I explained to you that all Nintendo titles are handicapped because they're physical copies only. How on earth is that going to make the YTD top 20 against multi-platform third party titles with full physical and digital sales? Please tell me on the list of the YTD Top 20 what you expected Paper Mario to outsell after one month of partial data.

First of all, as I already stated I am clearly not good at this:
I'm beginning to think I honestly barely understand the market. I'm legit shocked that Ghost of Tsushima releasing for the third time did so well, Dragon's Dogma 2 outselling ff7 rebirth, etc.

Secondly, I would've hoped that it can compete against other 1st party non multi platform games, ie: Rise of the Ronin

And finally, why? As I said before:
I honestly did expect Paper Mario to do better because it's Mario and I do recall there was some buzz around it, ie: https://www.resetera.com/threads/pa...rently-the-top-selling-game-on-amazon.827373/

Which as others have told me now, this clearly didn't mean anything.
 

Omnistalgic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,365
NJ
I wouldn't extrapolate Portal sales as a sign of a seemingly underserved handheld audience within Sony's user base. Portal works because it makes the PS5 more accessible - not portable.

I feel pretty damn confident a standalone Sony branded handheld would flop quite impressively - even one with it's only purpose to play older games.
Not a PlayStation handheld that could play PS4/PS5 games. The Japanese market, and people who want a portable option is definitely an underserved market. if it's indeed to launch as a companion to PS6, I think it'll sell very well.
 

Aki

Member
Mar 20, 2020
886
Not a PlayStation handheld that could play PS4/PS5 games. The Japanese market, and people who want a portable option is definitely an underserved market. if it's indeed to launch as a companion to PS6, I think it'll sell very well.

I know it's impossible but it would be great to have a handled PS6 along the main one day 1 replacing the need for a "digital only" console.

But I'm all for a new PlayStation portable as long as they don't split their development, that is what ultimately doomed the vita.
 

Omnistalgic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,365
NJ
I know it's impossible but it would be great to have a handled PS6 along the main one day 1 replacing the need for a "digital only" console.

But I'm all for a new PlayStation portable as long as they don't split their development, that is what ultimately doomed the vita.
Yup, it would essentially be a Playstation Series S equivalent but portable. This is the gen to do it because I believe visually, games have reached the point of 'good enough' during the PS4 generation. Frankly, it's an easy 25M seller, particularly if they release in some close proximity to Switch 2.

GTA6, Destiny, Gacha, and Monster Hunter Wild on the train??

Come on...
 

Aki

Member
Mar 20, 2020
886
Yup, it would essentially be a Playstation Series S equivalent but portable. This is the gen to do it because I believe visually, games have reached the point of 'good enough' during the PS4 generation. Frankly, it's an easy 25M seller, particularly if they release in some close proximity to Switch 2.

GTA6, Destiny, Gacha, and Monster Hunter Wild on the train??

Come on...

I would never look at a TV ever again, I vastly prefer portable gaming and I hope Sony realises there is a market for it, even if it won't reach the Switch's heights sales wise.
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
16,729
Yup, it would essentially be a Playstation Series S equivalent but portable. This is the gen to do it because I believe visually, games have reached the point of 'good enough' during the PS4 generation. Frankly, it's an easy 25M seller, particularly if they release in some close proximity to Switch 2.

GTA6, Destiny, Gacha, and Monster Hunter Wild on the train??

Come on...

I would never look at a TV ever again, I vastly prefer portable gaming and I hope Sony realises there is a market for it, even if it won't reach the Switch's heights sales wise.
It seems like their current path with handhelds is going to be streaming based, which would eliminate the need for optimizing games for a hardware target in the future.
 

Aki

Member
Mar 20, 2020
886
It seems like their current path with handhelds is going to be streaming based, which would eliminate the need for optimizing games for a hardware target in the future.

I get that, a middle ground solution could be a portal 2 that allows at least PS4 games to be accessible natively while still streaming ps5 games.
 

Copilot

Member
Jun 27, 2023
1,001
PS4 has a memory bandwidth of 200GB/s. I don't know any LPDDR memory capable of that. Even Cerny can't do a miracle like that.
 

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,769
PS4 has a memory bandwidth of 200GB/s. I don't know any LPDDR memory capable of that. Even Cerny can't do a miracle like that.
PS4 has 176 GB/s, the currently fastest LPDDR5X memory has a bw of 171 GB/s @ 128 bit, so it's a tiny clock upgrade apart from reaching PS4 bw.
Ofc you could also go wider thus that's far more complicated.
 

Nano-Nandy

Member
Mar 26, 2019
2,544
Secondly, I would've hoped that it can compete against other 1st party non multi platform games, ie: Rise of the Ronin
Though, keep in mind that in the case of Rise of the Ronin:
-It has four Circana charts tracking YTD sales
-It has two SKUs that are priced higher ($70/80) and the chart is ranked in dollars (vs. $60 for Paper Mario)
-It includes digital sales
 
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FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,901
Los Angeles, CA
Really happy for GOT.

The thirst for portable gaming is so big that even something as half assed as the Portal is doing well.

What's half assed about the Portal?

I can go over to my friend's house, or visit my family out of state, and still play my PS5 without needing to lug that big beast with me. It has full Dual Sense support, is comfortable to hold, and the screen is quite large and has a great resolution. It's practically a portable PS5, and that's pretty awesome.

And this is coming from someone who had no interest in the Portal back when it was revealed. I didn't intend on getting one at all, but, maybe ironically, it was the Switch that ultimately got me to buy a Portal.

I found myself playing my Switch right before bed, and I got to thinking how cool it would be to be able to curl up under the covers, all the lights off, and play my PS5, dozing off without the bright ass tv eating up electricity and illuminating the room! Then, once I got the Portal (and I had also upgraded my internet service some months before, and connected my PS5 wired instead of wireless), I realized how convenient it was when I wanted to play it not just in bed, but when I was away from home.

I honestly think it's a pretty elegant solution to the "portable problem" anyone but Nintendo and mobile games wrestle with.

They managed to create a portable PlayStation that doesn't require developers to create dedicated software for it, which also reduces the cost of the hardware itself since it doesn't need some crazy internal components to run games natively, and you can play your PS4 and PS5 games on it (granted the internet connection isn't terrible at home, and at wherever you happen to be).

I'm just not sure what's half assed about it. Investing in a "proper" handheld brings a lot of risk. Investing in a portable streaming device that probably makes a profit on every unit sold, isn't as risky (all business endeavors have risk, but the Portal seems like a smart move).

It's possible that the success of the Portal could potentially reignite interest in a native portable PlayStation device, but if it doesn't, I can see them expanding the Portal's feature set through software updates so players can stream more stuff to it (like game streaming from PS+, or being able to stream stuff like Youtube and Netflix; it's possible that licensing or some kind of contract thing is why they can't just let folks stream Youtube/Netflix/Hulu, etc that would need to be sorted by the license holders).
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,733
First of all, as I already stated I am clearly not good at this:


Secondly, I would've hoped that it can compete against other 1st party non multi platform games, ie: Rise of the Ronin

And finally, why? As I said before:


Which as others have told me now, this clearly didn't mean anything.

Its fine if you're not good at this but I'm asking you these questions so I can understand your perspective and bring up points of information to help you get better at it.

- Dragon's Dogma 2 outselling FF7 Rebirth was a surprise that caught most people off guard. Its a combination of Capcom being on top of their game when it comes to their top franchises and Square Enix being stubborn by having Final Fantasy be one of the few remaining pure Playstation exclusive games, which the CEO has stated they will be changing at their last investor relations report.

- Circana chart rankings are done by total revenue, not copies sold. So PS5 titles like Rise of Ronin have a huge advantage over Nintendo Switch games since its 69.99 versus 59.99. Rise of the Ronin has had three months of full sales (digital + physical) versus one month of Paper Mario's incomplete sales (physical only). Mario RPGs are niche popular in that they sell single digit millions and shouldn't be compared to 2D or 3D Mario titles, Nintendo certainly doesn't expect them to or they still wouldn't continue to make them.
 

Omnistalgic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,365
NJ
What's half assed about the Portal?

I can go over to my friend's house, or visit my family out of state, and still play my PS5 without needing to lug that big beast with me. It has full Dual Sense support, is comfortable to hold, and the screen is quite large and has a great resolution. It's practically a portable PS5, and that's pretty awesome.

And this is coming from someone who had no interest in the Portal back when it was revealed. I didn't intend on getting one at all, but, maybe ironically, it was the Switch that ultimately got me to buy a Portal.

I found myself playing my Switch right before bed, and I got to thinking how cool it would be to be able to curl up under the covers, all the lights off, and play my PS5, dozing off without the bright ass tv eating up electricity and illuminating the room! Then, once I got the Portal (and I had also upgraded my internet service some months before, and connected my PS5 wired instead of wireless), I realized how convenient it was when I wanted to play it not just in bed, but when I was away from home.

I honestly think it's a pretty elegant solution to the "portable problem" anyone but Nintendo and mobile games wrestle with.

They managed to create a portable PlayStation that doesn't require developers to create dedicated software for it, which also reduces the cost of the hardware itself since it doesn't need some crazy internal components to run games natively, and you can play your PS4 and PS5 games on it (granted the internet connection isn't terrible at home, and at wherever you happen to be).

I'm just not sure what's half assed about it. Investing in a "proper" handheld brings a lot of risk. Investing in a portable streaming device that probably makes a profit on every unit sold, isn't as risky (all business endeavors have risk, but the Portal seems like a smart move).

It's possible that the success of the Portal could potentially reignite interest in a native portable PlayStation device, but if it doesn't, I can see them expanding the Portal's feature set through software updates so players can stream more stuff to it (like game streaming from PS+, or being able to stream stuff like Youtube and Netflix; it's possible that licensing or some kind of contract thing is why they can't just let folks stream Youtube/Netflix/Hulu, etc that would need to be sorted by the license holders).
Hmmmmhmmmm...

Anecdotally, more of my casual friends who only get a handful of games a gen, have a Portal. It's a very nice Dad gift. An expanded PS Portal would do very well IMHO.
 

FFNB

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Oct 25, 2017
6,901
Los Angeles, CA
Hmmmmhmmmm...

Anecdotally, more of my casual friends who only get a handful of games a gen, have a Portal. It's a very nice Dad gift. An expanded PS Portal would do very well IMHO.

Yeah, the Portal is a really good parent gift in general (moms game too! lol)! Just being able to game on the Portal if the kids are using the TV for other stuff, but the parents want to squeeze in some game time while they can!

And yeah, I imagine an expanded Portal would do well, though i'm curious if they're just going to stick with software improvements for now, and then gauge if they need a revision later on. The price point of the Portal is really good, and was definitely another factor in making it an easy purchase for me over something like a Steam deck (which I considered getting as well, but opted for the Portal instead, since my PS4/5 library is significantly larger than my Steam library)
 

Omnistalgic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,365
NJ
Yeah, the Portal is a really good parent gift in general (moms game too! lol)! Just being able to game on the Portal if the kids are using the TV for other stuff, but the parents want to squeeze in some game time while they can!

And yeah, I imagine an expanded Portal would do well, though i'm curious if they're just going to stick with software improvements for now, and then gauge if they need a revision later on. The price point of the Portal is really good, and was definitely another factor in making it an easy purchase for me over something like a Steam deck (which I considered getting as well, but opted for the Portal instead, since my PS4/5 library is significantly larger than my Steam library)
Yeah I'd be interested in doing a pros/cons for an upgraded PSP that plays games locally. I think a companion app like Portal works because it's simple, has the price of a high-end controller, and does what your PS5 does. The only downside is lag.

The main issue I have with a theoretical PSP that plays local stuff is price point. Having a shared PS4/PS5 library is great, but another $400 device alongside a $500 console is crazy.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,740
Hey....

I had to scroll further than I'd like on that list to see Mario Kart 8 on the chart.

Don't you all ever let that happen again. The GOAT will not tolerate this disrespect. 👑
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,901
Los Angeles, CA
Yeah I'd be interested in doing a pros/cons for an upgraded PSP that plays games locally. I think a companion app like Portal works because it's simple, has the price of a high-end controller, and does what your PS5 does. The only downside is lag.

The main issue I have with a theoretical PSP that plays local stuff is price point. Having a shared PS4/PS5 library is great, but another $400 device alongside a $500 console is crazy.

Yeah, I think my personal list of Pros and Cons would be:

PSVita 2.0

Pros:
A brand new dedicated handheld!
Potential Backwards compatibility with PS1, PS2, PSP, PSVita titles, running natively on the handheld
Potentially capable of running PS4 titles natively if the hardware is powerful enough
No need for a Wi Fi connection to play games

Cons:
Price. It's likely going to be an expensive handheld, especially if it's aiming to deliver PS4 or higher level performance
Depending on the hardware, even if it can hit PS4 level quality, performance might be an issue
Screen size and resolution could be lower to maintain smooth performance
Potential battery life concerns

PS Portal

Pros:
Price. $200 USD is just a solid price
Can stream your downloaded PS4/5 library
Large Screen with great resolution
Comfortable to hold
Dual Sense features being kept intact is great
Really solid battery life (from my experience, but then again, I don't use my Portal longer than 3-4 hours max)

Cons:
Heavily dependent on the strength of the available internet connection for both the PS5, and wherever you happen to be playing your Portal
Potential lag due to the above internet connection strength (in general, I haven't experienced any significant lag both at home, or when visiting friends/family thus far)
Can't run games natively. Streaming only
No support for streaming games not downloaded to your PS5 (ie, PS+ titles that are part of their streaming catalog
No support for streaming non-gaming apps like Youtube, Hulu, Netflix, Disney +, etc

I'm sure there are more pros and cons for both, but either way, i'm officially interested in being able to play my PS library portable, in whatever form it takes. The Portal has been great so far, and worth the investment for me!
 

Jaded Alyx

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,291
First of all, as I already stated I am clearly not good at this:


Secondly, I would've hoped that it can compete against other 1st party non multi platform games, ie: Rise of the Ronin

And finally, why? As I said before:


Which as others have told me now, this clearly didn't mean anything.
Do you understand that you're comparing one month with several months?
 

Omnistalgic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,365
NJ
Yeah, I think my personal list of Pros and Cons would be:

PSVita 2.0

Pros:
A brand new dedicated handheld!
Potential Backwards compatibility with PS1, PS2, PSP, PSVita titles, running natively on the handheld
Potentially capable of running PS4 titles natively if the hardware is powerful enough
No need for a Wi Fi connection to play games

Cons:
Price. It's likely going to be an expensive handheld, especially if it's aiming to deliver PS4 or higher level performance
Depending on the hardware, even if it can hit PS4 level quality, performance might be an issue
Screen size and resolution could be lower to maintain smooth performance
Potential battery life concerns

PS Portal

Pros:
Price. $200 USD is just a solid price
Can stream your downloaded PS4/5 library
Large Screen with great resolution
Comfortable to hold
Dual Sense features being kept intact is great
Really solid battery life (from my experience, but then again, I don't use my Portal longer than 3-4 hours max)

Cons:
Heavily dependent on the strength of the available internet connection for both the PS5, and wherever you happen to be playing your Portal
Potential lag due to the above internet connection strength (in general, I haven't experienced any significant lag both at home, or when visiting friends/family thus far)
Can't run games natively. Streaming only
No support for streaming games not downloaded to your PS5 (ie, PS+ titles that are part of their streaming catalog
No support for streaming non-gaming apps like Youtube, Hulu, Netflix, Disney +, etc


I'm sure there are more pros and cons for both, but either way, i'm officially interested in being able to play my PS library portable, in whatever form it takes. The Portal has been great so far, and worth the investment for me!
yeah, so as much as I would rather have a device to natively play my PS games If Sony can knock out those last two cons with an upgraded Portal, I'd say go for the streaming device. It just makes too much sense.

If a device that can play PS1-PS4 native and stream PS5 games can be cheap around $300-$350, I'd go with the native.

But either way, I'm glad we got a nice little companion app, and hope it's a permanent part of Playstation's hardware going forward.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,703
steam deck costs $350-$400 for lcd model with is pretty close to PS4 if not stronger in some areas. Definitely possibly with how cheap and good APUs are getting these days.

Being somewhat similar to a ps4 in power in a handheld format is not the same thing as being a PS4 (or PS5) in terms of power in a handheld format and all that this would entail.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
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Oct 25, 2017
6,901
Los Angeles, CA
yeah, so as much as I would rather have a device to natively play my PS games If Sony can knock out those last two cons with an upgraded Portal, I'd say go for the streaming device. It just makes too much sense.

If a device that can play PS1-PS4 native and stream PS5 games can be cheap around $300-$350, I'd go with the native.

But either way, I'm glad we got a nice little companion app, and hope it's a permanent part of Playstation's hardware going forward.

For sure. I think the Portal is enough for now, but if they do go down that route of making a new handheld, I'll be open minded about it and see what the deal is!

I also forgot to list in the cons of a dedicated handheld being the need for developer support. while it's cool to be able to play your older games and existing library on it, most folks buy new hardware to play new titles.

We know the bulk of Sony's focus is on creating PS5 games, and paving the way for PS6 eventually, so it's hard to imagine that a new PS handheld would be getting strong first party support. Third Party's will always look into more ways they can sell their games to players, so PS Vita 2 ports may still be a thing, unless it's truly compatible with PS4 level titles, at which point maybe they'll just develop for PS5 as base platform, and then scale down to spec for the portable.
 

Omnistalgic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,365
NJ
For sure. I think the Portal is enough for now, but if they do go down that route of making a new handheld, I'll be open minded about it and see what the deal is!

I also forgot to list in the cons of a dedicated handheld being the need for developer support. while it's cool to be able to play your older games and existing library on it, most folks buy new hardware to play new titles.

We know the bulk of Sony's focus is on creating PS5 games, and paving the way for PS6 eventually, so it's hard to imagine that a new PS handheld would be getting strong first party support. Third Party's will always look into more ways they can sell their games to players, so PS Vita 2 ports may still be a thing, unless it's truly compatible with PS4 level titles, at which point maybe they'll just develop for PS5 as base platform, and then scale down to spec for the portable.
I have to imagine that's the plan. Visually games are already at the Pixar level. No doubt teams like ND and Rockstar are going to want to make an epic AAA on new hardware, but IMHO, PS4-level games have already reached the visual threshold. It's why mobile gaming is so popular, it's visually indistinguishable from console gaming now.

When its cheap enough, I think Sony will aim for a PS4-level machine that gets PS5 downgraded ports. The only thing it will miss out on are the AAAA PS6 stuff. That shouldn't be too much of a hassle for devs right?
 

FFNB

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I have to imagine that's the plan. Visually games are already at the Pixar level. No doubt teams like ND and Rockstar are going to want to make an epic AAA on new hardware, but IMHO, PS4-level games have already reached the visual threshold. It's why mobile gaming is so popular, it's visually indistinguishable from console gaming now.

When its cheap enough, I think Sony will aim for a PS4-level machine that gets PS5 downgraded ports. The only thing it will miss out on are the AAAA PS6 stuff. That shouldn't be too much of a hassle for devs right?

honestly, it's all a lot of work, whether it be small or large scale. making games is just a pain in the ass, even at the best of times lol

and graphics can, and will, always be striving to get better. we've certainly reached an incredible level of visual fidelity that i wouldn't mind us sticking with if it helps get costs under control, but i agree that studios like ND and Guerrilla, and Rockstar are always going to be pushing their tech further.

i have a feeling that what Naughty Dog does on the PS5 is going to blow minds.

i still remember seeing that Uncharted 4 teaser for the first time, and what a leap from Uncharted 3 and The Last of Us! i was blown away by the glow up their engine underwent since The Last of Us Remastered.

then The Last of Us Part 2 took those advancements even further. i know it's hard to imagine them going beyond that on the PS5, but i guarantee they will.

The Last of Us Part 1 Remake was them simply getting their engine and tools PS5 ready, but their built from the ground up PS5 game is going to be bonkers, i'm sure.

and yeah, i think that mobile game visuals have reached a truly impressive level, so if Sony were to jump back into the portable game space, they'll want to do it when it's the most cost effective in terms of designing and manufacturing a handheld that isn't overly expensive to produce, and if it's possible for it to run PS5 games, albeit with obvious reductions to certain things, without impacting the dev teams production flow on the primary version of the game, that'd be ideal.

i just don't think mobile tech is at a level where it can produce PS5 level visuals at acceptable performance, but i suspect we'll get there. Steam Deck is a great indicator of progress on that front, i think. a few more Steam Deck revisions, and that's when i think it'd be a good time to truly pursue a PlayStation handheld. The Portal is a good, affordable stop gap for now that serves a good purpose, and appears to be doing rather well for them!
 
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get2sammyb

Editor at Push Square
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Oct 27, 2017
3,226
UK
When its cheap enough, I think Sony will aim for a PS4-level machine that gets PS5 downgraded ports. The only thing it will miss out on are the AAAA PS6 stuff. That shouldn't be too much of a hassle for devs right?

It's too complicated and honestly not as compelling as you think. Given the success of the PS Portal, I expect them to continue to iterate on the idea and have this product as an option moving forwards.

They'll probably be able to incorporate some features into future hardware revisions/PS6 that improve the overall streaming experience.
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,699
It's too complicated and honestly not as compelling as you think. Given the success of the PS Portal, I expect them to continue to iterate on the idea and have this product as an option moving forwards.

They'll probably be able to incorporate some features into future hardware revisions/PS6 that improve the overall streaming experience.
I think the Portal is (at the minute) the more likely path Sony goes forward with as well... getting a powerful handheld is not something I think would be all that possible right now. And even if it is, it'll be incredibly expensive AND have a battery that lasts for 2 hours... if your lucky. Portal being a low key breakout hit suggests that they might just keep going with this path, at least until tech can make a decent (and affordable) handheld.
 

Tobor

Died as he lived: wrong about Doritos
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Oct 25, 2017
30,970
Richmond, VA
I just don't see any scenario whatsoever where Sony will make another handheld that requires native game development. Not happening.

The Portal makes perfect sense. If they can make a model that can play older PS4 games, that would be cool, but it's an outside chance.
 

Omnistalgic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,365
NJ
honestly, it's all a lot of work, whether it be small or large scale. making games is just a pain in the ass, even at the best of times lol

and graphics can, and will, always be striving to get better. we've certainly reached an incredible level of visual fidelity that i wouldn't mind us sticking with if it helps get costs under control, but i agree that studios like ND and Guerrilla, and Rockstar are always going to be pushing their tech further.

i have a feeling that what Naughty Dog does on the PS5 is going to blow minds.

i still remember seeing that Uncharted 4 teaser for the first time, and what a leap from Uncharted 3 and The Last of Us! i was blown away by the glow up their engine underwent since The Last of Us Remastered.

then The Last of Us Part 2 took those advancements even further. i know it's hard to imagine them going beyond that on the PS5, but i guarantee they will.

The Last of Us Part 1 Remake was them simply getting their engine and tools PS5 ready, but their built from the ground up PS5 game is going to be bonkers, i'm sure.

and yeah, i think that mobile game visuals have reached a truly impressive level, so if Sony were to jump back into the portable game space, they'll want to do it when it's the most cost effective in terms of designing and manufacturing a handheld that isn't overly expensive to produce, and if it's possible for it to run PS5 games, albeit with obvious reductions to certain things, without impacting the dev teams production flow on the primary version of the game, that'd be idea.

i just don't think mobile tech is at a level where it can produce PS5 level visuals at acceptable performance, but i suspect we'll get there. Steam Deck is a great indicator of progress on that front, i think. a few more Steam Deck revisions, and that's when i think it'd be a good time to truly pursue a PlayStation handheld. The Portal is a good, affordable stop gap for now that serves a good purpose, and appears to be doing rather well for them!
I see...man something has to be done in the development space with tools/engineering. I want to get to the point where games are like books/films and the technical aspects fall by the wayside of creativity and innovation. It's a different, interactive format, but I would love if devs visions could be realized in 2-3 years and not 5-7, it's so lame only getting 1-2 games a gen from my favorite studios.

But, i gues we are still a ways off from PS5-level games being any type of portable, I will reassess next year when we see what Switch 2 is capable of, but I would bet on Portal 2 versus Vita 2 at this point.
 

Templeusox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,415
I just don't see any scenario whatsoever where Sony will make another handheld that requires native game development. Not happening.

The Portal makes perfect sense. If they can make a model that can play older PS4 games, that would be cool, but it's an outside chance.
Is there really a market of people clamoring to play their PS4 games that would warrant a new handheld? And that's such a weird non-Sony move to step backwards and service an old platform. Especially when people who have figured their network situation out can do that with the portal anyway.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
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Oct 25, 2017
6,901
Los Angeles, CA
I see...man something has to be done in the development space with tools/engineering. I want to get to the point where games are like books/films and the technical aspects fall by the wayside of creativity and innovation. It's a different, interactive format, but I would love if devs visions could be realized in 2-3 years and not 5-7, it's so lame only getting 1-2 games a gen from my favorite studios.

But, i gues we are still a ways off from PS5-level games being any type of portable, I will reassess next year when we see what Switch 2 is capable of, but I would bet on Portal 2 versus Vita 2 at this point.

better, more efficient tools are always welcome, and many studios have engineers that put in a lot of work to develop tools that will assist production, but at the end of the day, most of this stuff still requires human work. and that takes time.

games are also becoming more complex, and not just in the visual department, but designing the game and executing on it itself.

the days of 2-3 year development are, for better or worse, behind us. it's just not really very feasible anymore.

let's take Naughty Dog again as an example.

i imagine the first year or so of development is simply figuring out what the game is going to be. there's almost always an idea leadership may want to pursue, but some very long, serious, and involved conversations have to happen to determine if said idea is not only viable for a good video game, but viable for the market by the time it actually releases. the industry is constantly shifting, and what's hot in 2024, may not be hot in 2028 or later.

it's easy to spend at least a year just brainstorming and ideating on concepts both in terms of genre, themes, game mechanics, overall design stuff.

then, when all of that has finally been locked down, you're going to spend a lot of time on a few things concurrently (spoilering for length, and feel free to skip right to the TLDR, because this shit is long lol):

art. lots and lots of art. i have the art books for both The Last of Us, and The Last of Us Part 2, and there is so, so much art, and I know from experience having worked on the art book for our game, so much art didn't make the cut for the art book (for our book, i was specifically in charge of capturing environmental shots, while others on the book chose various pieces of art from across development to include). because art isn't a one and done kind of thing, a lot of time will be spent working with the various character and environmental artists to hone in and nail down on the look of the game. that kind of thing is either going to happen during the back half of year 1, and carry into year 2 of development, and it takes time with the back and forth until the art design is locked down.

once that's done, you can start bringing in 3D modelers for characters, environments, weapons, props, vehicles, etc, etc, and creating those assets takes a very long time, especially if you need a lot of them. We all know how dense and detailed Naughty Dog character models and environments are. All that shit has to be modeled, rigged for animation or physics, and then, working with the game design, level design, art directors, etc, then placed into the environments that are being worked on by the environmental modelers.

but there's also a majorly important step that i should have put before the art and 3d modeling paragraph: prototyping. once your concept and design/mechanics are figured out, you're going to want to prototype those things as quickly as possible before you put your art department to work on creating assets. you want to make sure that your gameplay designs are actually worth building on. prototyping, and noodling with that prototype until it feels right (and game feel is one of the single most important things to truly nail in your game). prototyping requires a lot of collaboration between the designers, creative directors, engineers, and programmers, and maybe a 3D modeler and animator that can whip up some janky as stand ins for characters and enemies.

depending on the complexity of your game, prototyping can take a long time. there's a benefit to working on sequels of established, and successful IP, because you have a strong foundation to build on, so you may be able to roll over into producing the necessary assets once the concept, game design and game flow is decided. For a new IP, though, if it's going to be different from your previous projects (if you are an established studio like ND), you're more than likely building all of those things from the ground up, with perhaps the game engine being the one thing you can carry over, and upgrade and optimize for the needs of the new project.

with prototyping done, and the concept being greenlit by leadership as being viable, you can in earnest start directing the team on creating all the various components of the game that need to be worked on. Script, full level design, audio design, UI concepts/iteration (this often changes a lot as a project develops, and more mechanics that may need some kind of UI element are nailed down), engine tuning and optimization for the specific project, programmers writing and implementing code based off of the design doc/plan, etc, etc. by the time the game reaches this stage, you're probably already at year 3 of dev, and it might feel like you barely started, though the game has already had a lot of significant work put into it thus far.

so your year 3 is largely spent building on the foundation established by the prototype, and the various departments are now working very, very closely to start putting it all together. the more complex the game (like an open world title, or an RPG), is going to require a lot more time, simply because of the scope of the game, and making sure that all of the planned systems and mechanics are taking shape as intended. this is such a critical stage for the game, because by this point, the team has already invested a shit ton of time, resources, and budget to get this far. having to pivot or drastically alter the design of the game in some way could be disastrous for the team, and if the project is ultimately seen as unworkable, they'll have to start the process all over again with a new concept.

the point is, making games at the level that a studio like Naughty Dog or Guerrilla Games work at, is going to take way more time these days than it did in the past, and for a combination of factors, one of the largest being asset generation, as well as implementation of the various gameplay systems.

the "fun" part of game development, ie, the time where your game starts looking and feeling like a "proper" game, doesn't usually happen until much later in the development process, as more assets and systems start to be implemented (ie, combat systems, enemy AI systems, weapon functionality, etc, etc), which also tends to excite and fire up the team as things slowly start coming together.

even with development tools getting better, most of them aren't able to solve the myriad of things that can, and will, go wrong during game development.

the reason why so many big publishers are salivating at the prospect of AI tech advancements is because of the potential to reduce dev times, but also costs. meaning, the better these tools get at doing what human's do, the less need to keep so many humans employeed, so more layoffs and incredibly talented people desperately looking for work.

it's a double edged sword, i think. better tools could make our jobs "easier," but it also runs the risk of making our jobs obsolete, or only needing to be done by a small number of people, when before, it may have required many. and a smaller team with more efficient tools isn't a guarantee that development will be any shorter than it already is.

i know i've brought it up before, but Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown, a rather straightforward 2.5D Metroidvania game still took Ubisoft Montpelier 4 years to develop (a likely reason for the $40-50 price tag it had at launch; the credits for that game took me almost 10 minutes to get through, that's how many people worked on that game). It's not some AAA mega blockbuster tentpole. it's not 100 hours long. it's not pushing the graphical envelope (though it's still a very nice looking game in my opinion), yet it still took 4 years, and hundreds of people working on it to complete.

something of the caliber of The Last of Us Part 2, or Horizon: Forbidden West, is going to take much longer, even with better dev tools, even if it was another entry in those series.

it's just really challenging to make games, and even moreso these days, when there is so much competition for player's time, energy, and money. if your game doesn't stand out, whether it be visually, some interesting gameplay or narrative hook, or, ideally for many gamers, all of the above, it's going to be hard to be successful.

higher fidelity graphics are certainly one way to get attention, but like you were saying before, graphics have reached a really, really satisfying level of fidelity. So then it boils down to content. But thanks to the PS3 era, and the PS4 era putting a strong emphasis on "value for your dollar," most games are trying to cram in as much content as possible so they aren't seen as not having enough value for your money, but creating and implementing that content takes time.

One of the things that impressed me the most about Horizon Forbidden West was that aside from the gorgeous visuals (easily one of the best looking games of the generation), was how so much of the side and extra content was more than just filler. Like, the side quests were so in depth they could have easily been mistaken for parts of the critical path. From dialogue, to cinematics, to narrative beats, etc, it was more than just, "Side quest: kill X enemies. Okay, you're done with that? Cool. Check box marked off." and there were so many side quests that were that in depth. that required so much work from GG, and was such a step up from Zero Dawn that I couldn't help but be blown away by it. The Witcher 3 (which is what I think Forbidden West reminds me the most of), is another example of that depth of content beyond just quantity of content.

sorry for the tangent, but, yeah, the competition to stand out enough to sell enough copies of your game to continue to make more games is a large part of what's driving these teams to pursue grander and grander scopes for their games, which is, in turn, increasing dev times. and, unfortunately, a lot of gamers aren't eager to spend $70 on a more streamlined, focused experience, even if it did boast the most impressive visuals in the world (i'm not sure how well Hellblade 2 sold, but man, is it a stunning game). Hell, even if the smaller, more streamlined game actually does release at a lower price (like Hellblade 2, or Spider-Man: Miles Morales), many gamers still don't see it as "value for dollar."

Because that's such an arbitrary, subjective measure, it's hard for devs to strike that balance. Spider-Man 2 has less content than Spider-Man 2018, but the content that's there is more in depth than in SM2018 (especially the side quests, but even activities like the enemy base camps have more meaning and meat to them narratively, providing further context for the overarching narratives), yet some folks were still disappointed that it was a shorter game compared to the original. Miles Morales sold less than Spider-Man 2018, despite being cheaper, more polished, but shorter than SM2018. point is, it's very unfortunate that in the gaming industry, price, visuals, and amount of content have all been wrapped up in a way that it's hard to balance all of that with rising dev costs, and longer dev times.

it's a tough nut to crack.

i know i personally don't mind shorter games that look and play well, but i don't speak for the gaming community as a whole, and definitely not the millions of gamers that don't frequent enthusiast gaming forums, and largely just see a cool ad online or in a movie theater, and decide it looks interesting enough for them to buy. unless a review happens to mention the short game length, or not feeling like there's enough content for your money. then they're more inclined to be like, "Eh, i'll wait for a sale then," which doesn't really help the devs much in an industry where more and more importance is put on how well these games do out the gate, and not necessarily how long the legs are for non-live service games. especially new IP that desperately need to build an audience as quickly as possible up front compared to an existing IP that has a built in audience, where a sequel will likely perform very well out the gate, but also have legs.

Like Ghost of Tsushima is a nice example of a new IP that managed to find its audience on PS4 (thanks to the healthy install base of the PS4 in 2020), was well received critically, and then got new life breathed into it when it released on PC 4 years after release. i'm also sure that outside gaming industry factors like the popularity of Shogun also gave a little boost of interest in Ghost and Rise of the Ronin, so, great timing on Sony/Nixes, and Sony/Team Ninja's part with the releases of those lol

i'm so sorry for the novel i just wrote, and i completely lost the plot of what i was rambling about, but to try and steer it back, , but the tldr is; i think as gamers, we're going to have to come to terms with longer dev times for some of our favorite devs, especially the ones that are known to really push the hardware with each release. the upside is that there are still so many amazing games releasing month in and month out, that it's not like it's a drought of games to play while we wait.

i'm a huge fan of the vast majority of PS Studio's studios, so i can't wait to see what they're working on, but on the other hand, i kind of can, since i'm very much occupied by all the other games releasing in the meantime lol

Is there really a market of people clamoring to play their PS4 games that would warrant a new handheld? And that's such a weird non-Sony move to step backwards and service an old platform. Especially when people who have figured their network situation out can do that with the portal anyway.

that's probably my biggest "concern" with Sony making a dedicated handheld that is largely just a PS4 portable. aside from it being cool to have a portable PS4, i just don't see why they'd want to go backward, when they, as well as many third parties, are focused more on going forward with the latest tech.

the Portal really does seem like it makes the most sense for me there.

like, i have to say, it was really cool to be able to play Stellar Blade and Dragon's Dogma 2 on my Portal while hanging out at a friend's house. i don't know if i'd have felt that way if i was playing Dragon's Dogma 2: PS4 Portable Edition instead. Sure, it'd have been native, but how compromised would the experience have been on a dedicated platform, compared to just directly streaming the PS5 version to my Portal thanks to a strong wi fi connection?

and I didn't have to spend $400-500 to get that experience either. that's always a nice plus. lol
 
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Tobor

Died as he lived: wrong about Doritos
Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,970
Richmond, VA
Is there really a market of people clamoring to play their PS4 games that would warrant a new handheld? And that's such a weird non-Sony move to step backwards and service an old platform. Especially when people who have figured their network situation out can do that with the portal anyway.

🤷‍♂️ I would buy it? But I'm hardly representative.

I only see it as a real possibility If it requires nothing on developers part, and Sony would only need to worry about system updates.

My main point is any kind of device that's reliant on new games and new development would be a no go. PSVR 2 is the nail in the coffin on that one.
 

Tobor

Died as he lived: wrong about Doritos
Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,970
Richmond, VA
that's probably my biggest "concern" with Sony making a dedicated handheld that is largely just a PS4 portable. aside from it being cool to have a portable PS4, i just don't see why they'd want to go backward, when they, as well as many third parties, are focused more on going forward with the latest tech.

the Portal really does seem like it makes the most sense for me there.

like, i have to say, it was really cool to be able to play Stellar Blade and Dragon's Dogma 2 on my Portal while hanging out at a friend's house. i don't know if i'd have felt that way if i was playing Dragon's Dogma 2: PS4 Portable Edition instead. Sure, it'd have been native, but how compromised would the experience have been on a dedicated platform, compared to just directly streaming the PS5 version to my Portal thanks to a strong wi fi connection?

and I didn't have to spend $400-500 to get that experience either. that's always a nice plus. lol

Let's say…for the sake of argument…it's called PS Portal Pro.

It works just like a Portal, but is beefier and can play older games natively. New games still need to stream.

Why would anyone want this? So it can function on a plane or places without internet? Is that a market? I don't know, but I vastly prefer playing games on my Steam Deck natively even though I can stream everyhthing to It.

I've put 400 hours into Starfield natively on the Steam Deck, so I fully admit I'm not in the majority on this one.
 

ianpm31

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,865
Maybe the ps4 handheld will be ps4 native with ps5 streaming. Wouldn't be a bad idea then
 

New Donker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,510
I love the idea of a portable PS4 that streams PS5 games, but I also wouldn't fault Sony if they just focused on enhancing the Portal experience. I'd love to know real numbers on how many Portals they've sold
 

Lionheart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,953
Helldivers is the perfect example of why pricing matters. Wish Sony would rethink their price increase and lower FP games back down to 60. I honestly think they'd make even more revenue with FOMO buyers. That $10 increase puts people off, I know because I've held off on a few games I would have otherwise bought waiting for a sale. Instead of getting me at 79 Cad, they will get me at like 60. Helldivers is making more revenue than full price games.

FP games in general used to be discounted, sucks thats no longer the case.

Don't get me started on games in Canada breaching 93 bucks. That 3-4 dollars actually turns people off even more. Companies have to realize how important the initial price is.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
61,771
Helldivers is the perfect example of why pricing matters. Wish Sony would rethink their price increase and lower FP games back down to 60. I honestly think they'd make even more revenue with FOMO buyers. That $10 increase puts people off, I know because I've held off on a few games I would have otherwise bought waiting for a sale. Instead of getting me at 79 Cad, they will get me at like 60. Helldivers is making more revenue than full price games.

FP games in general used to be discounted, sucks thats no longer the case.

Don't get me started on games in Canada breaching 93 bucks. That 3-4 dollars actually turns people off even more. Companies have to realize how important the initial price is.
But Ragnarok, HFW, SM2, GT7, etc, all sold boatloads at $70 a pop. That's a 16% revenue increase over $60. They probably wouldn't sell 20% more copies over a $10 difference and have already set that standard. They will just wait to put it on sale to grab consumers like you that would bite at $60.

Astro Bot is $60 so we'll see how that does. But I think that's a $50 game in the age of $60 games, so now it's $60 in the age of $70 if that makes sense.
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
16,729
Helldivers is the perfect example of why pricing matters. Wish Sony would rethink their price increase and lower FP games back down to 60. I honestly think they'd make even more revenue with FOMO buyers. That $10 increase puts people off, I know because I've held off on a few games I would have otherwise bought waiting for a sale. Instead of getting me at 79 Cad, they will get me at like 60. Helldivers is making more revenue than full price games.

FP games in general used to be discounted, sucks thats no longer the case.

Don't get me started on games in Canada breaching 93 bucks. That 3-4 dollars actually turns people off even more. Companies have to realize how important the initial price is.
You would have to see evidence that full retail price is actually hurting releases. If sales are flat but revenue is up that is a win, even if sales were down somewhat and revenue is up that is still a win.
 

Omnistalgic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,365
NJ
better, more efficient tools are always welcome, and many studios have engineers that put in a lot of work to develop tools that will assist production, but at the end of the day, most of this stuff still requires human work. and that takes time.

games are also becoming more complex, and not just in the visual department, but designing the game and executing on it itself.

the days of 2-3 year development are, for better or worse, behind us. it's just not really very feasible anymore.

let's take Naughty Dog again as an example.

i imagine the first year or so of development is simply figuring out what the game is going to be. there's almost always an idea leadership may want to pursue, but some very long, serious, and involved conversations have to happen to determine if said idea is not only viable for a good video game, but viable for the market by the time it actually releases. the industry is constantly shifting, and what's hot in 2024, may not be hot in 2028 or later.

it's easy to spend at least a year just brainstorming and ideating on concepts both in terms of genre, themes, game mechanics, overall design stuff.

then, when all of that has finally been locked down, you're going to spend a lot of time on a few things concurrently (spoilering for length, and feel free to skip right to the TLDR, because this shit is long lol):

art. lots and lots of art. i have the art books for both The Last of Us, and The Last of Us Part 2, and there is so, so much art, and I know from experience having worked on the art book for our game, so much art didn't make the cut for the art book (for our book, i was specifically in charge of capturing environmental shots, while others on the book chose various pieces of art from across development to include). because art isn't a one and done kind of thing, a lot of time will be spent working with the various character and environmental artists to hone in and nail down on the look of the game. that kind of thing is either going to happen during the back half of year 1, and carry into year 2 of development, and it takes time with the back and forth until the art design is locked down.

once that's done, you can start bringing in 3D modelers for characters, environments, weapons, props, vehicles, etc, etc, and creating those assets takes a very long time, especially if you need a lot of them. We all know how dense and detailed Naughty Dog character models and environments are. All that shit has to be modeled, rigged for animation or physics, and then, working with the game design, level design, art directors, etc, then placed into the environments that are being worked on by the environmental modelers.

but there's also a majorly important step that i should have put before the art and 3d modeling paragraph: prototyping. once your concept and design/mechanics are figured out, you're going to want to prototype those things as quickly as possible before you put your art department to work on creating assets. you want to make sure that your gameplay designs are actually worth building on. prototyping, and noodling with that prototype until it feels right (and game feel is one of the single most important things to truly nail in your game). prototyping requires a lot of collaboration between the designers, creative directors, engineers, and programmers, and maybe a 3D modeler and animator that can whip up some janky as stand ins for characters and enemies.

depending on the complexity of your game, prototyping can take a long time. there's a benefit to working on sequels of established, and successful IP, because you have a strong foundation to build on, so you may be able to roll over into producing the necessary assets once the concept, game design and game flow is decided. For a new IP, though, if it's going to be different from your previous projects (if you are an established studio like ND), you're more than likely building all of those things from the ground up, with perhaps the game engine being the one thing you can carry over, and upgrade and optimize for the needs of the new project.

with prototyping done, and the concept being greenlit by leadership as being viable, you can in earnest start directing the team on creating all the various components of the game that need to be worked on. Script, full level design, audio design, UI concepts/iteration (this often changes a lot as a project develops, and more mechanics that may need some kind of UI element are nailed down), engine tuning and optimization for the specific project, programmers writing and implementing code based off of the design doc/plan, etc, etc. by the time the game reaches this stage, you're probably already at year 3 of dev, and it might feel like you barely started, though the game has already had a lot of significant work put into it thus far.

so your year 3 is largely spent building on the foundation established by the prototype, and the various departments are now working very, very closely to start putting it all together. the more complex the game (like an open world title, or an RPG), is going to require a lot more time, simply because of the scope of the game, and making sure that all of the planned systems and mechanics are taking shape as intended. this is such a critical stage for the game, because by this point, the team has already invested a shit ton of time, resources, and budget to get this far. having to pivot or drastically alter the design of the game in some way could be disastrous for the team, and if the project is ultimately seen as unworkable, they'll have to start the process all over again with a new concept.

the point is, making games at the level that a studio like Naughty Dog or Guerrilla Games work at, is going to take way more time these days than it did in the past, and for a combination of factors, one of the largest being asset generation, as well as implementation of the various gameplay systems.

the "fun" part of game development, ie, the time where your game starts looking and feeling like a "proper" game, doesn't usually happen until much later in the development process, as more assets and systems start to be implemented (ie, combat systems, enemy AI systems, weapon functionality, etc, etc), which also tends to excite and fire up the team as things slowly start coming together.

even with development tools getting better, most of them aren't able to solve the myriad of things that can, and will, go wrong during game development.

the reason why so many big publishers are salivating at the prospect of AI tech advancements is because of the potential to reduce dev times, but also costs. meaning, the better these tools get at doing what human's do, the less need to keep so many humans employeed, so more layoffs and incredibly talented people desperately looking for work.

it's a double edged sword, i think. better tools could make our jobs "easier," but it also runs the risk of making our jobs obsolete, or only needing to be done by a small number of people, when before, it may have required many. and a smaller team with more efficient tools isn't a guarantee that development will be any shorter than it already is.

i know i've brought it up before, but Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown, a rather straightforward 2.5D Metroidvania game still took Ubisoft Montpelier 4 years to develop (a likely reason for the $40-50 price tag it had at launch; the credits for that game took me almost 10 minutes to get through, that's how many people worked on that game). It's not some AAA mega blockbuster tentpole. it's not 100 hours long. it's not pushing the graphical envelope (though it's still a very nice looking game in my opinion), yet it still took 4 years, and hundreds of people working on it to complete.

something of the caliber of The Last of Us Part 2, or Horizon: Forbidden West, is going to take much longer, even with better dev tools, even if it was another entry in those series.

it's just really challenging to make games, and even moreso these days, when there is so much competition for player's time, energy, and money. if your game doesn't stand out, whether it be visually, some interesting gameplay or narrative hook, or, ideally for many gamers, all of the above, it's going to be hard to be successful.

higher fidelity graphics are certainly one way to get attention, but like you were saying before, graphics have reached a really, really satisfying level of fidelity. So then it boils down to content. But thanks to the PS3 era, and the PS4 era putting a strong emphasis on "value for your dollar," most games are trying to cram in as much content as possible so they aren't seen as not having enough value for your money, but creating and implementing that content takes time.

One of the things that impressed me the most about Horizon Forbidden West was that aside from the gorgeous visuals (easily one of the best looking games of the generation), was how so much of the side and extra content was more than just filler. Like, the side quests were so in depth they could have easily been mistaken for parts of the critical path. From dialogue, to cinematics, to narrative beats, etc, it was more than just, "Side quest: kill X enemies. Okay, you're done with that? Cool. Check box marked off." and there were so many side quests that were that in depth. that required so much work from GG, and was such a step up from Zero Dawn that I couldn't help but be blown away by it. The Witcher 3 (which is what I think Forbidden West reminds me the most of), is another example of that depth of content beyond just quantity of content.

sorry for the tangent, but, yeah, the competition to stand out enough to sell enough copies of your game to continue to make more games is a large part of what's driving these teams to pursue grander and grander scopes for their games, which is, in turn, increasing dev times. and, unfortunately, a lot of gamers aren't eager to spend $70 on a more streamlined, focused experience, even if it did boast the most impressive visuals in the world (i'm not sure how well Hellblade 2 sold, but man, is it a stunning game). Hell, even if the smaller, more streamlined game actually does release at a lower price (like Hellblade 2, or Spider-Man: Miles Morales), many gamers still don't see it as "value for dollar."

Because that's such an arbitrary, subjective measure, it's hard for devs to strike that balance. Spider-Man 2 has less content than Spider-Man 2018, but the content that's there is more in depth than in SM2018 (especially the side quests, but even activities like the enemy base camps have more meaning and meat to them narratively, providing further context for the overarching narratives), yet some folks were still disappointed that it was a shorter game compared to the original. Miles Morales sold less than Spider-Man 2018, despite being cheaper, more polished, but shorter than SM2018. point is, it's very unfortunate that in the gaming industry, price, visuals, and amount of content have all been wrapped up in a way that it's hard to balance all of that with rising dev costs, and longer dev times.

it's a tough nut to crack.

i know i personally don't mind shorter games that look and play well, but i don't speak for the gaming community as a whole, and definitely not the millions of gamers that don't frequent enthusiast gaming forums, and largely just see a cool ad online or in a movie theater, and decide it looks interesting enough for them to buy. unless a review happens to mention the short game length, or not feeling like there's enough content for your money. then they're more inclined to be like, "Eh, i'll wait for a sale then," which doesn't really help the devs much in an industry where more and more importance is put on how well these games do out the gate, and not necessarily how long the legs are for non-live service games. especially new IP that desperately need to build an audience as quickly as possible up front compared to an existing IP that has a built in audience, where a sequel will likely perform very well out the gate, but also have legs.

Like Ghost of Tsushima is a nice example of a new IP that managed to find its audience on PS4 (thanks to the healthy install base of the PS4 in 2020), was well received critically, and then got new life breathed into it when it released on PC 4 years after release. i'm also sure that outside gaming industry factors like the popularity of Shogun also gave a little boost of interest in Ghost and Rise of the Ronin, so, great timing on Sony/Nixes, and Sony/Team Ninja's part with the releases of those lol

i'm so sorry for the novel i just wrote, and i completely lost the plot of what i was rambling about, but to try and steer it back, , but the tldr is; i think as gamers, we're going to have to come to terms with longer dev times for some of our favorite devs, especially the ones that are known to really push the hardware with each release. the upside is that there are still so many amazing games releasing month in and month out, that it's not like it's a drought of games to play while we wait.

i'm a huge fan of the vast majority of PS Studio's studios, so i can't wait to see what they're working on, but on the other hand, i kind of can, since i'm very much occupied by all the other games releasing in the meantime lol



that's probably my biggest "concern" with Sony making a dedicated handheld that is largely just a PS4 portable. aside from it being cool to have a portable PS4, i just don't see why they'd want to go backward, when they, as well as many third parties, are focused more on going forward with the latest tech.

the Portal really does seem like it makes the most sense for me there.

like, i have to say, it was really cool to be able to play Stellar Blade and Dragon's Dogma 2 on my Portal while hanging out at a friend's house. i don't know if i'd have felt that way if i was playing Dragon's Dogma 2: PS4 Portable Edition instead. Sure, it'd have been native, but how compromised would the experience have been on a dedicated platform, compared to just directly streaming the PS5 version to my Portal thanks to a strong wi fi connection?

and I didn't have to spend $400-500 to get that experience either. that's always a nice plus. lol
Great post, that was enlightening and a nice window into the development process...when you break it down like that yeah, I guess we have to just let the studios cook, because in reality, we do want to see ND push some aspect of the industry forward when they release. I know I do. Indy devs have pretty much replaced the AA space and we have a ton of forever games you get years of play out of. No shortage of games and content whatsoever I agree. I guess I wish a few more Sony studios were like Team Asobi and Housemarquee then? Just focused on pushing the gameplay experience further. I'd imagine something like Astrobot, while still taking years to develop, has so much less going on than TLOU or Ghost. The script is shorter, waay less voice actors, the tech is different and uses less motion capture etc...I think Sony could use 1-2 more evergreen studios (seriously make a fighter and an animal crossing/sims game), but despite what I see online, PS5 is probably already my favorite PS. There was nothing like turning on PS1 for the first time, that'll always be special. But hardware-wise, it's my favorite. It feels like games are instant again like back on SNES and Genesis and unique weird titles are back, couch co-op, literally everything. It's just hard to get all those genres from your favorite popular studios for obvious reasons, but yeah, I think PS5 will likely go down as Sony best platform. Without the pandemic, it would probably already be at 70M right now. I think the gen is quite literally just get started, with more tech innovative games like MHW and GTA6 on the way.

It's only behind PS2 for me, this early into the gen. I think we'll settle into longer development time just fine. I don't need anything more until 2030 but a Pro.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,901
Los Angeles, CA
Let's say…for the sake of argument…it's called PS Portal Pro.

It works just like a Portal, but is beefier and can play older games natively. New games still need to stream.

Why would anyone want this? So it can function on a plane or places without internet? Is that a market? I don't know, but I vastly prefer playing games on my Steam Deck natively even though I can stream everyhthing to It.

I've put 400 hours into Starfield natively on the Steam Deck, so I fully admit I'm not in the majority on this one.

I honestly have no idea if there'd be a market for it. But I also didn't think there'd be a market for a device that is streaming only for PlayStation games!

At the end of the day, these business will create products they think may sell, and if they hit that mark, they'll continue to service that market, and if they don't, they'll stop support for it.

The Portal is a really interesting device to me, because it's not something I thought I'd ever find use for or have an interest in, and yet, here I am now, owning a Portal, and while I don't use it constantly, I use it enough, and it was worth the purchase.

Like, if there was a dedicated portable that could play, say, PS4 games, how good would those games run on that hardware?

On the flip side, if I boot up a PS4 game like, say, Days Gone, and stream it through my Portal, I'm getting the performance benefits of my PS5. A native portable version of Days Gone probably wouldn't hit 60fps, or be at a nice resolution. I'm not sure how Days Gone runs on the Steam Deck, but is it running at 60fps at least? and looking sharp and crisp on the Steam Deck screen? I assume it's Steam Deck certified, but I don't know lol

Great post, that was enlightening and a nice window into the development process...when you break it down like that yeah, I guess we have to just let the studios cook, because in reality, we do want to see ND push some aspect of the industry forward when they release. I know I do. Indy devs have pretty much replaced the AA space and we have a ton of forever games you get years of play out of. No shortage of games and content whatsoever I agree. I guess I wish a few more Sony studios were like Team Asobi and Housemarquee then? Just focused on pushing the gameplay experience further. I'd imagine something like Astrobot, while still taking years to develop, has so much less going on than TLOU or Ghost. The script is shorter, waay less voice actors, the tech is different and uses less motion capture etc...I think Sony could use 1-2 more evergreen studios (seriously make a fighter and an animal crossing/sims game), but despite what I see online, PS5 is probably already my favorite PS. There was nothing like turning on PS1 for the first time, that'll always be special. But hardware-wise, it's my favorite. It feels like games are instant again like back on SNES and Genesis and unique weird titles are back, couch co-op, literally everything. It's just hard to get all those genres from your favorite popular studios for obvious reasons, but yeah, I think PS5 will likely go down as Sony best platform. Without the pandemic, it would probably already be at 70M right now. I think the gen is quite literally just get started, with more tech innovative games like MHW and GTA6 on the way.

It's only behind PS2 for me, this early into the gen. I think we'll settle into longer development time just fine. I don't need anything more until 2030 but a Pro.

Thank you so much! Game development, especially modern game development, has so many moving parts, even with smaller games. Anything that's really pushing things forward, and aiming for success at launch, is going to take a lot more time than it did in the past. It's unfortunate, but it makes sense as trying to balance the capabilities of the tech with the resources of the studio, and the expectations of gamers is very, very tricky these days. Gamers expect their shiny new million teraflop boxes to do some impressive shit, but that takes time. Some folks were disappointed that GoW Ragnarok, or Spider-Man 2 didn't look light years ahead of their PS4 predecessors (I disagree, but whatever lol), so I can't imagine them being too pleased if back half PS5 titles only look marginally better than first half of the generation PS5 titles. And there's no way they'd be happy with PS6 titles looking only slightly better, or at the same level as PS5 titles, despite how incredible some of these PS5 games look (like Horizon: Forbidden West, for example).

And yeah, we have a lot of indie devs and smaller studios that are filling that A-AA game space, but for some folks, unless it's first party, it doesn't seem to count, or interest them.

Sony's First Party studios have evolved. They've reached a place where they're able to really go big on their ambitions as developers, so I just don't expect them to have much interest in exploring A or AA style gaming.

Housemarque was in danger of shutting down had Sony not bought them, but even then, their first title was their attempt at marrying their classic Housemarque style design philosophy with higher, AAA budget production values. Who knows what their next game is, but I imagine it's going to be in the same vein as Returnal in terms of increasing the ambition of the project relative to the previous title.

I often see folks here and elsewhere wanting more A-AA style games coming from Sony, but I just don't understand why when it's already being filled by so many talented and creative third party and indie studios. Is it really that important that the games have a "PS Studios" logo slapped onto them? For me, personally, no, no it's not important to me. I'm just glad to see that those types of games still exist and are being made. I just wish they sold more and were talked about more than they are lol

The PS5 is definitely my favorite PS console in terms of just the hardware. The only thing that would make it better would be if I could just pop in my PS1 and PS2 discs and play those on my system, instead of having to wait for PS+ additions that may never come because it's a dead IP, or from a shuttered studio, or was too niche to ever really have a Remaster or Re-release be a feasible option.

The PlayStation console that allows me to do that is easily going to be my favorite. Man, it'd have been so amazing if the PS5 could play PS1, PS2, PS3, PSP, PS Vita, PS4, and PS5 titles natively. If the PS6 is capable of that, it'd be perfection for me lol
 

ArchLector

Member
Apr 10, 2020
7,869
I don't understand what's this mythical market for a console handheld for people who also don't want to own a Switch/2 on principle.
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,051
The only way I can see a modern PS portable work is with the following:

  • they release their own version of a cutdown budget console a gen prior while continuing that same strategy so dev's don't have to worry about downporting too much if the handheld can run a similar profile as the cutdown console
  • The PC handheld space remains forever niche and Sony doesn't invest in optimizations targeting those
  • REAALY competitive pricing, like 300 bucks or lower
Otherwise, I do agree that their interest is only going to rely on streaming handhelds going forward.