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Oct 27, 2017
787
I'm personally grateful to him that he has done so. "Saying anything bad about the people one used to work with reflects badly to the highest degree on the person saying it" is horseshit. It is silence, and acceptance of incompetence, mediocrity, and malevolence that is the true cancer infesting any and all societal constructs (such as a workplace).
Malevolence, such as the way Chris acted, but doing what he's done, 4 days before Obsidian's new game launches?

And yes, doing what he did reflects badly on him. If I worked on another company, and was thinking about hiring Chris, this would surely make me think twice about it. If he pulled this with a past employer, he can do it with another employer as well.

And I must say, with your logic, burning bridges, you're very likely to go far professionally.
I can tell you that I worked with people, stopped working with them due to whatever reasons, and years later they came knocking on my door to work with me again, to our mutual benefit.
I'm sure that would happen if I decided to go on the internet, and badmouth them, with reason or not.
 

hobblygobbly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,573
NORDFRIESLAND, DEUTSCHLAND
Hiring people on the internet to attack Bethesda and Bioware made games for example.
Bethesda and Bioware have been making shit RPGs for a decade, I guess I'm a paid Obsidian shill now.

Do you have any evidence/sources about your claims or is this just fanboy nonsense because Obsidian made better RPGs than the former two i.e FNV and KOTOR2?

Because you posting unsubstantiated bullshit combined with what you have said in the past:

"New Vegas and Witcher 3 are trash garbage games with an unoriginal and poorly implemented storyline, weak gameplay, boring characters, catastrophically bad endings, and zero good sequences in the entire game" and "Fallout 3 is more memorable and more fun to play than New Vegas. Fallout 4 is a better game than Witcher 3."

... makes it pretty apparent you're shit posting here.
 

Fou-Lu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,339
I feel like the answer is going to be weird because the Codex is a messed up place, but why do they call Chris Avellone MCA on the RPG Codex forums?
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
Biased or bitter, I would advise not being overly relativistic (when it comes to most things in life, actually). Pointing out the obvious, namely that the account is from his perspective, and thus limited, establishes absolutely nothing.

What he said is not only quite likely true, but knowing his track record, the way he has spoken about things before having been in the business for more than 15 years, we can say with certitude he is shining a very accurate light on what went on behind closed doors.

I'm personally grateful to him that he has done so. "Saying anything bad about the people one used to work with reflects badly to the highest degree on the person saying it" is horseshit. It is silence, and acceptance of incompetence, mediocrity, and malevolence that is the true cancer infesting any and all societal constructs (such as a workplace).

More people should be like him.

His narrative has massive and obvious gaps even without considering the responses of other people, is wildly self-serving, and is delivered to an audience of internet trolls egging him on. He also goes out of his way to shit-talk about people and projects he, according to his own narrative, had little to no involvement in. The notion that it should be considered very accurate with any certitude is ridiculous.

That's not to say it should be totally discounted. That's to say that we should probably either wait for other sides of the story or for the investigation of someone who is not obviously and severely biased and does not have conflicts of interest.
 

EternalMushroom

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
24
Bethesda and Bioware have been making shit RPGs for a decade, I guess I'm a paid Obsidian shill now.

Do you have any evidence/sources about your claims or is this just fanboy nonsense because Obsidian made better RPGs than the former two i.e FNV and KOTOR2?

Because you posting unsubstantiated bullshit combined with what you have said in the past:

"New Vegas and Witcher 3 are trash garbage games with an unoriginal and poorly implemented storyline, weak gameplay, boring characters, catastrophically bad endings, and zero good sequences in the entire game" and "Fallout 3 is more memorable and more fun to play than New Vegas. Fallout 4 is a better game than Witcher 3."

... makes it pretty apparent you're shit posting here.

Nah, you are just shit posting and mad that Obsidian doesn't know how to make good RPG
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
Bethesda and Bioware have been making shit RPGs for a decade, I guess I'm a paid Obsidian shill now.

Do you have any evidence/sources about your claims or is this just fanboy nonsense because Obsidian made better RPGs than the former two i.e FNV and KOTOR2?

Because you posting unsubstantiated bullshit combined with what you have said in the past:

"New Vegas and Witcher 3 are trash garbage games with an unoriginal and poorly implemented storyline, weak gameplay, boring characters, catastrophically bad endings, and zero good sequences in the entire game" and "Fallout 3 is more memorable and more fun to play than New Vegas. Fallout 4 is a better game than Witcher 3."

... makes it pretty apparent you're shit posting here.

Amazing lol.
 

EternalMushroom

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
24
User banned (3 days): Hostility towards other users, accusing others of being paid shills, thread derailment
He did/does good work and I respect that , but all the public drama he stirred up since he left Obsidian has soured me a bit on him. If a kickstarter says "We'll get Avellone!!!", I'm like "that's cool, but eh".
Too bad all the drama Obsidian fanboys stir up can't sour the Obsidian games since Obsidian doesn't know how to make good games anyway.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
I'm actually curious what game studios would qualify as "functional" for Chris if the requirement is everyone works only 40 hours a week. Are there any studios that can actually accomplish that?
 
Oct 27, 2017
787
I think people are now bombing Steam reviews/ratings/scores to defend Chris.

That's not how this works.
No, that is exactly how it works. And that is why Chris did what it did.

Sadly, apparently all it takes now is for someone to say something, without any proof, and people get judged on social media, and internet forums, and engage on these sad campaigns.
Even if things turn out to be false, and demonstrated as such, you can be sure you'll get people repeating this from now on.

See EternalMushroom, and what he posted about Obsidian paying for internet users to attack Bethesda and Bioware.
Something as ridiculous as that is obviously false. But, either he heard that before, and is repeating it, no matter how unfounded that is, or, what probably happened is that due to an apparent personal dislike for the company (especially since he didn't post anything to support that, and searching around I see no mention of that), he made that up, and I have no doubt someone will assume that is true, and repeat this info.

It's like people stopped thinking for themselves. Someone says something on social media (even something as ridiculous as a politician is running a pedophilia ring from the basement of a pizzaria), and people just buy into that.
I don't get it.
 

BDubsLegend

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
1,027
It may be impossible to ever know the truth behind any of this, and the truth probably lies somewhere amid all the different perspectives and representations and distortions.

But honestly, and I say this as someone who has been skeptical of Obsidian in the past, and almost unthinkingly supportive of Avellone, this is not a good look for the latter. These posts are long and rambling and a little bit unhinged. The other voices who have weighed in all seem more reasonable and nuanced; many of Avellone's criticisms seem spiteful, and there's a degree of muckraking around individuals and individual relationships that just feels ... icky.

Throw in the fact that his chosen venue for this is the RPG Codex, and it just doesn't sit right with me. Like, I'm sure Fergus is a bad business man and quite possibly terrible to work with or for; there's plenty to support that! But everything else ... I don't know.
We really should stop taking sides in industry drama. It's hard to know what the exact truth is and as a professional, even if it's all true this is not the way to handle it. Future employers see this as if some disagreement were to happen, who's to say this person wouldn't try to air all dirty laundry. I not saying don't speak up is something is wrong, but often times, innocuous things can seem evil from just one perspective.
 

Deleted member 11262

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,459
Nah, you are just shit posting and mad that Obsidian doesn't know how to make good RPG
Too bad all the drama Obsidian fanboys stir up can't sour the Obsidian games since Obsidian doesn't know how to make good games anyway.
Dude, what?
How about some proof for your ridiculous claims? I'm also one of those Bethesda haters btw...their games are shit or mediocre most of the time.
 

EternalMushroom

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
24
I mean just look at a few of the games Obsidian has made and it's very obvious how they have to pay their fans to praise their mediocre products while trashing on other good devs such as Bethesda and Bioware:

Kotor 2
Significant downgrade to Kotor 1, worse story, worse character, filled with bugs, unfinished, universally agreed by critics to be worse than Kotor 1

New Vegas
Somehow looks worse than Fallout 3, Map feels empty/flat and uninspired, location of interest in New Vegas map = a small shack. No sense of exploration whatsoever, filled with bugs, unfinished, universally agreed by critics to be worse than Fallout 3

POE
Worse than Baldurs Gate in every way possible. Broken magic system, broken stat system at launch. Map lag. Huge amount of filler content with actual fanfic level writings. Graphics from 1995

Tyranny
Dumped by Microsoft for good reasons since this game is so bad. There is a reason why Obsidian has trouble finding publishers.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
No, that is exactly how it works. And that is why Chris did what it did.

Yes. And to anyone asking why it's relevant that this happened at the Codex, this here can give you a clue as to motivation. Not to mention Chris's gleefully ominous "Paradox isn't happy prepare for more fun accounts than mine soon" stuff. He doesn't want to relay the truth or even what happened to him as he sees it; he could have gone to someone like Jason for that. He wants to damage Obsidian, plain and simple.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
If I had known you could get paid for trashing Bethesda and Bioware for their awful games I would have signed up years ago. No one ever fills me in on this stuff!
 

ak1287

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,935
I mean just look at a few of the games Obsidian has made and it's very obvious how they have to pay their fans to praise their mediocre products while trashing on other good devs such as Bethesda and Bioware:

Kotor 2
Significant downgrade to Kotor 1, worse story, worse character, filled with bugs, unfinished, universally agreed by critics to be worse than Kotor 1

New Vegas
Somehow looks worse than Fallout 3, Map feels empty/flat and uninspired, location of interest in New Vegas map = a small shack. No sense of exploration whatsoever, filled with bugs, unfinished, universally agreed by critics to be worse than Fallout 3

POE
Worse than Baldurs Gate in every way possible. Broken magic system, broken stat system at launch. Map lag. Huge amount of filler content with actual fanfic level writings. Graphics from 1995

Tyranny
Dumped by Microsoft for good reasons since this game is so bad. There is a reason why Obsidian has trouble finding publishers.
This bullshit doesn't fit any kind of definition of proof.
I'm not one to attribute malice where stupidity is more apparent, so...
 

5taquitos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,892
OR
Man, it's almost like their should be a department where employees can bring up disputes with other employees.

I don't know what you'd call it though...
 

jschreier

Press Sneak Fuck
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,095
Thanks guys. It does sound like a complicated situation; that said, on the whole, my perception of Avellone has diminished a bit based on what I am reading. Maybe I am wrong, I hope Jason can shed some light on the issue.
Just to be clear, I've been reporting and talking to people about this but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll turn into an article. It's a complicated one.
 
Oct 27, 2017
787
I mean just look at a few of the games Obsidian has made and it's very obvious how they have to pay their fans to praise their mediocre products while trashing on other good devs such as Bethesda and Bioware
I'm not sure if I find what you posted ridiculous, or just sad.
You sound like a 10 year old kid, arguing that the companies you like are better than the ones other people like.

I honestly don't get people like you. You don't like Obsidian RPGs? Don't buy them. Don't play them. Don't waste your time reading on them. Why this hostility? Why show up on this topic, posting false, ridiculous info? Because people disagree with your tastes?

I don't like Call of Duty games, at all. It doesn't bother me that sequels keep getting made. It doesn't bother me that people keep buying them, it's their money.
I don't like it. I don't buy it. I don't follow them. Simple as that.

I like Obsidian games. I like Bethesda games. I like Bioware games (or at least most of their previous output, before many of the creatives left the company).
Was I paid?
 

Bansai

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,277

giphy.gif



Glad I got to the party a little late since it seems like these accusations quickly got countered with some positive examples from current and ex employees alike. This is one tough nut to crack, wish we got some receipts.
 

Deleted member 249

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,828
Just to be clear, I've been reporting and talking to people about this but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll turn into an article. It's a complicated one.
I understand completely! It could just be some personal disputes and misunderstandings, not everything lends itself well to a story after all :)
 

Mexen

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,930
Conflicting. I just read BS&P and put Tyranny on my wishlist. :(

Just to be clear, I've been reporting and talking to people about this but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll turn into an article. It's a complicated one.

Understandable, but once the record's straight, I would want you to be the one to report it.
 

jerfdr

Member
Dec 14, 2017
702
I think people are now bombing Steam reviews/ratings/scores to defend Chris.

That's not how this works.

Any proof of widespread (or at least any noticeable) bombing of Obsidian Steam reviews? I've just browsed Obsidian's games on Steam and this claim seems to be wildly exaggerated (and some people here have already started to use it as some kind of proof of Chris's malicious intent...).
 
Last edited:

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
Any proof of widespread (or at least any noticeable) bombing of Obsidian Steam reviews? I've just browsed Obsidian's games on Steam and this claim seems to be wildly exaggerated (and some people here has already started to use it as some kind of proof of Chris's malicious intent...).

You don't need review bombing for that. That much is obvious on its own and from his own words. But malice isn't always unearned, and I guess now it's just a matter of trying to figure out whose view holds the most truth to it, if any.
 

OuterLimits

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
987
I would feel nervous to accept someone's word if they got it out there through an interview with Breitbart or Fox News too, so I don't really see the difference.

You do realise Democrats/liberals do interviews on Fox News also? Even Obama did an interview with Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday .
 

Deleted member 4452

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,377
Conflicting. I just read BS&P and put Tyranny on my wishlist. :(
You might want to consider getting it with the Tales from the Tiers DLC and the (mini?) expansion Bastard's Wound if you see them for cheap. Not because they are exceptional content (I haven't bothered getting them myself, as I am not going to replay Tyranny), but because Tyranny by itself will feel like a somewhat barebones game, and the DLC might help the game feel more complete (cut content that should have been in the base game? who can say)
 

Mexen

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,930
You might want to consider getting it with the Tales from the Tiers DLC and the (mini?) expansion Bastard's Wound if you see them for cheap. Not because they are exceptional content (I haven't bothered getting them myself, as I am not going to replay Tyranny), but because Tyranny by itself will feel like a somewhat barebones game, and the DLC might help the game feel more complete (cut content that should have been in the base game? who can say)

Oh, really insightful. I'll keep that in mind, thanks.
 

jerfdr

Member
Dec 14, 2017
702
You don't need review bombing for that. That much is obvious on its own and from his own words. But malice isn't always unearned, and I guess now it's just a matter of trying to figure out whose view holds the most truth to it, if any.
Oh, I didn't say that Chris doesn't have any malicious intent. Cleary he has some serious bad blood with Obsidian's higher management, and probably it's not unearned. I'm just saying that someone has made some completely unfounded claims about review bombings and others have already cited this as part of some evil plan on Chris's part. This is going a bit too far, 'tis all.
 

rakhir

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
104
You might want to consider getting it with the Tales from the Tiers DLC and the (mini?) expansion Bastard's Wound if you see them for cheap. Not because they are exceptional content (I haven't bothered getting them myself, as I am not going to replay Tyranny), but because Tyranny by itself will feel like a somewhat barebones game, and the DLC might help the game feel more complete (cut content that should have been in the base game? who can say)
I'm curious if this opinion is because Tyranny hides content depending on your choices. I completed it twice, and one playthrough is still around 20 hours.
I really enjoyed it quite a bit.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,047
Conflicting. I just read BS&P and put Tyranny on my wishlist. :(



Understandable, but once the record's straight, I would want you to be the one to report it.

Buy whatever you want, I wouldn't let company politics get in the way of games I enjoy.

Yeah, don't let this recent kerfuffle stop you from playing a game you were otherwise interested in. Tyranny in particular isn't GOAT material or anything, but it's a cool, unique world with some interesting gameplay ideas.
 

Deleted member 4452

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,377
I'm curious if this opinion is because Tyranny hides content depending on your choices. I completed it twice, and one playthrough is still around 20 hours.
I really enjoyed it quite a bit.
I really liked the conquest prologue, and in a better game that would have really encouraged me to replay the game to try other things. But, ultimately, I was not very impressed by the whole choice & consequence thing in-game, as it was mostly depending on ONE choice you make in act 1, with very few opportunities to diverge from your (hack & slash for the most part) linear path once you made that decision.

I enjoyed it quite a bit too. Especially the worldbuilding. It just feels like it was made with a shoestring budget. I would be singing its praises if act 2 really opened up and felt like a full RPG instead of doubling down on linearity.

Don't read if you didn't play the game:
I 'sided' with the Disfavored, then later felt sick by the railroading and went the chaos/assassin path (but that was basically just a different 'kill everything' linear path). I had considered replaying as the rebels but didn't feel like there was enough to the game to motivate myself to
 

hemtae

Member
Oct 25, 2017
110
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...rarchies-and-more.121588/page-93#post-5596666

Speaking of Boyarsky, how come he leaves cozy high level position at fucking Blizzard of all places, and goes to Obsidian if its such a horrible place to work?
Leonard would probably tell you if asked, but I will say that he likely would have more creative voice at Obsidian and for all the company's problems, they would probably give him more control over his own work. For example, I believe the company specifically asked the Design Director not to interfere (beyond advice) for their project, which I don't know would be true of every company where you might have many, many people weighing in and changing your work – having a "cozy" job isn't usually something a real creative wants.

Creative freedom is a powerful motivator. Still, Leonard and Tim did leave Feargus/Black Isle once already and may have concluded over time the experience with Feargus/BIS wasn't as bad as they remember – although memory can fade over time, and I wouldn't be surprised if many of the issues that led to the initial departure are starting to resurface as they are reminded of practices they had forgotten about, and the closer you get to the top, the more you see.

There was some mention that Leonard's story for their upcoming game was attacked unfairly by the Obsidian owners as being lacking, when, in fact, PoE2's story had all the same "problems" that were being raised except at a much higher level - but PoE2 got a pass for it. This kind of disparity can get increasingly frustrating over time because it can come across as favoritism. Me, every design and quest arc I've read from Leonard in the past was pretty good, so I'm dubious that there would be anything wrong with his story proposals, and the Obsidian owners are probably the last people I would listen to when it comes to game story critiques.
 
Nov 3, 2017
651
I do so wish that I could go to Avellone right now, take his arm and say: "Chris, it is not wise to wash your dirty laundry in this filthy river". But what got said on the internet stays said.