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Can other countries criticize U.S. race relations when they have much less diversity? (READ OP!)
- Thread starter BossAttack
- Start date
In France, we define Racism as the false belief that there are races and that they as a consequence can somehow be ranked. The basic Ideal of the French Revolution : all men are created equal.
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Boy, you got any straw left after that big ol' straw-man you just constructed?
By all means, let them name and shame. There is nothing wrong with pointing out problems that need to be addressed.
I think the more disgusting habit than being a hypocrite (that is pointing out a problem someone has that they themselves also likely have) is using that hypocrisy to justify not fixing an issue.
"They can't say shit about our problems because they have the same ones and because of that we don't need to fix it."
I think the more disgusting habit than being a hypocrite (that is pointing out a problem someone has that they themselves also likely have) is using that hypocrisy to justify not fixing an issue.
"They can't say shit about our problems because they have the same ones and because of that we don't need to fix it."
there was a controversy a few decades past in the US where the Census Bureau polled Portuguese-Americans if they were okay being classified as Hispanics.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Portuguese-Americans rejected that almost unanimously.
Portuguese (linguistically) are Lusitanic (Portuguese speaker) not Hispanic (Spanish/Castilian Speaker)
Even the name Hispania raises confusion since it was the name used by the Roman Empire for the Peninsula.
The people who lived there only use that word for the Geographical location of the entire Peninsula.
Present day Kingdom of Spain appropriated that name after the unification of Castile & Leon with Aragon and then proceed to do a name change of the language from Castilian to Spanish.
Discrimination happens even though the race ideology isn't recognized and is criminalized.
I don't see why you would equate the state not recognizing the race theory and a land free of discrimination.
It's not like the UK pretend it doesn't have problems of its own. An annual Stephen Lawrence Day was just established yesterday.
But that belief isn't totally false in the sense that people from different areas of the world are different from one another both culturally and genetically. There may not really be definable "races", but that doesn't mean there aren't legitimate differences for a government to measure. Speaking for my own "race", black people are more prone to hypertension. I'm glad the government is tracking that, so that I can be aware of it and adjust my lifestyle accordingly.
Perhaps if you're a member of the culture in question. It's not actually that easy to distinguish certain Southern Europeans from North Africans or Turks.
There is plenty diversity in Europe, but I suppose for Americans all 'white Europeans' (whatever that means; see above) are the same -- even though if you put a Bulgarian next to a Swede not only do they look entirely different, they will have come from entirely different social, cultural, religious, and economic backgrounds. How is labeling them both 'white' and calling it a day useful at all?
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It's not bad to criticize. I think you mean it's bad when someone from Europe tries to say they don't have racism in their country "like America does" (implying there's no racism in their country) despite black and other colored individuals in those same countries saying the opposite.
Ethnicity is important, yes, but it's become very obvious that people in many different parts of Europe are treating people worse based on the color of their skin.
Ethnicity is important, yes, but it's become very obvious that people in many different parts of Europe are treating people worse based on the color of their skin.
Sure, but in many cases that would just lead to both being discriminated against in a racist government scenario, especially if there's no way to have an idea of which is which
Racism in Europe isn't simply based around the Black/White/Hispanic/Asian paradigm that Americans use, so as a metric it isn't appropriate for judging Europe
Ethnicity and nationality play a much large part here, for example there is a huge amount of intra-white racism that's impossible for Americans to understand. If you look at an event like Brexit and the fallout following it, there were people being targeted by racists for Slavic or Mediterranean roots.
You started this thread asking that Europeans use an American lens when judging American issues then used an American lens to judge European issues.
I'm not saying that there isn't value to be had in this topic but that no valuable discourse is going to be generated when the conversation is started with a hypocritical attack.
EDIT:
Obviously not to say that there isn't the same kind of skin-colour based racism, just that the numbers you are using don't really tell the whole story in the context of what racism means here.
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Yes - because nobody's got it "right" and different countries excel in different areas and ultimately we're all trying to work it out and constructive criticism is how we get there and that goes across countries whether they're technically better or worse.
Denying this is encouraging insularity and lack of awareness beyond borders and ignoring that like it or not we are increasingly operating in a global society beyond borders where access and information is more available than ever as do platforms to voice views.
That said dumb criticism and stereotypes should be frowned on of course - there's a difference between "hey looking in from the outside we can see you've got a clear issue here" with "y'all are irremediable racists half wits".
Common sense tends to make it clear what's useful criticism and what isn't.
Final point: US never being shy to opinion on other countries pretty much invites it anyway whatever although I suspect that tends to generate negative criticism vs constructive.
Denying this is encouraging insularity and lack of awareness beyond borders and ignoring that like it or not we are increasingly operating in a global society beyond borders where access and information is more available than ever as do platforms to voice views.
That said dumb criticism and stereotypes should be frowned on of course - there's a difference between "hey looking in from the outside we can see you've got a clear issue here" with "y'all are irremediable racists half wits".
Common sense tends to make it clear what's useful criticism and what isn't.
Final point: US never being shy to opinion on other countries pretty much invites it anyway whatever although I suspect that tends to generate negative criticism vs constructive.
again, another over-generalization and blanket ignorance on historical facts.
Sure. The problem exists. It should be discussed. What annoys me is when people from other countries act like there are not race and ethnicity problems outside the US.
Europe, for example, has intense racial and ethnic problems. Just look at how black players can be treated by soccer fans. Or look at the history of genocide and pogroms continuing into the 1990s. Or look at antisemitism on the rise again, including in countries that perpetrated in the holocaust or gladly let it happen on their watch. Consider Europe's attitudes to Muslim immigrants and refugees. Etc. And while it undoubtedly differs from European country to European country, the general picture I have encountered in news stories and what not is one where there are problems across the continent.
And it isn't just the west either, e.g. Japan has race problems.
Europe, for example, has intense racial and ethnic problems. Just look at how black players can be treated by soccer fans. Or look at the history of genocide and pogroms continuing into the 1990s. Or look at antisemitism on the rise again, including in countries that perpetrated in the holocaust or gladly let it happen on their watch. Consider Europe's attitudes to Muslim immigrants and refugees. Etc. And while it undoubtedly differs from European country to European country, the general picture I have encountered in news stories and what not is one where there are problems across the continent.
And it isn't just the west either, e.g. Japan has race problems.
Who are you talking about? There are a lot of threads about issues outside the US.
Yes. Because "race relations" and population diversity are two separate thing. A country with a largely white majority can criticize the US police system for being scum and killing black people for no reason.
Interesting that some of my examples are pretty much not covered. Being from the Asian parts of Russia would be some kind of rule of thumb, I guess.
Like this quote here:
It's like...they know it doesn't make sense, so they don't force it upon anyone, which in turn makes it work.
But couldn't you now say that not tracking this "race" then creates the same problem people see in Europe? There's a lot of Latinos and Hispanics in the US.
I guess self identification is the only thing that works, simply because it's not a science. There's no argument to be won, really.
You didn't answer the question, though. So what is it. Sheer inconvenience?
another reason why we don't like to use the word race in europe is based on language: in many european languages, inlcuding swedish, german and spanish, the word race is also the same word that is used to talk about different breeds of animals
so instead of talking about dog breeds, our terms would be directly translated as dog races
so using the word "race" to talk about humans is dehumanizing. talking about race when talking about black people in many european countries would carry the connotation that you are comparing black people to dogs
so instead of talking about dog breeds, our terms would be directly translated as dog races
so using the word "race" to talk about humans is dehumanizing. talking about race when talking about black people in many european countries would carry the connotation that you are comparing black people to dogs
I live in Germany, I don't buy these numbers.
there are a lot of African and middle eastern people here, when I say a lot I mean A TON.
Just that 2.4% for turkish, that seems too low,
Hopefully it has been mentioned already but race relations are a lot more complicated than just who lives in a country.
Here is the real data from 2017 with a break down by country of origin. Even the refugee metrics are 25 times greater than what you're citing.
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/special-reports/legal-immigration
You're really going to cherry pick refugees for you argument? Then cherry pick Syrian refugees on top of that? Get out of here with that lol.
Here is the real data from 2017 with a break down by country of origin. Even the refugee metrics are 25 times greater than what you're citing.
https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/special-reports/legal-immigration
In the UK and more specifically London, you need to consider class in this conversation as it is often a bigger barrier to entry into politics than race is.
For the relatively low number of BME MPs that there are, a surprising number went to Oxbridge or have a background in finance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Gyimah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Vaz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiona_Onasanya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bim_Afolami
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemi_Badenoch
For the relatively low number of BME MPs that there are, a surprising number went to Oxbridge or have a background in finance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Gyimah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Vaz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiona_Onasanya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bim_Afolami
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemi_Badenoch
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Based on the amount of refugee taken in by Germany as well as living in France for most of my life.
Those numbers seem a bit to low but that's my opinion.
Also based on this study which I find more in line with what I experienced in France.
But the French constitution recognizes race:
It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion.
Isn't it difficult to ensure racial equality if you don't acknowledge race?
America definitely has major race issues that we need to solve. I really hope our younger generations can pull this off. Things aren't looking great right now. Europe doesn't have the same issues that America has, but really needs to find a way to treat it's ethnic minorities better IMO. Mainly speaking of Muslim, Jewish and the Romani people.
Have there been any studies done that track how the quality of life is for black people in major European countries? Are European blacks far better off than US blacks in regards to salary, political representation, job opportunities...etc.
Have there been any studies done that track how the quality of life is for black people in major European countries? Are European blacks far better off than US blacks in regards to salary, political representation, job opportunities...etc.
I have to admit, we've got issues here in Northern Ireland at least. But our systems don't allow for police to shoot people they don't like without consequences anymore, so we're already several steps ahead of the US in that regard. Most of my fears for the future lie in this place becoming more like the USA, where the corporation and the police reign supreme, and we have no socialised healthcare, no reasonable working hours, and not much actual representation. Our treatment of PoC has major issues that badly need addressed to avoid a disaster. The US' treatment of PoC is a joke.
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Germany only tracks ethnicity and even then its hazy. These statistics are from the German government. 10.4% of German voters have a "migrant background," of that 10.4%, 12.5% are Turkish. Extrapolate from that what you will.
Germany only tracks ethnicity and even then its hazy. These statistics are from the German government. 10.4% of German voters have a "migrant background," of that 10.4%, 12.5% are Turkish. Extrapolate from that what you will.
That would exclude third generation migrants though?
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That report is about Germany and it's about Muslim population increasing which does not necessarily mean non-white.
Not disputing that the demographics may have changed but 1-2% isn't going to suddenly make a mostly white country very diverse.
Had you gone to Berlin or someplace you may have noticed the immigrant population more though due to where immigrants often settle.
pretending that the social and economic stratification you see in France has nothing to do with the color of your skin is just stupid. Is that elaborate enough for you?
anyways, I think citizens of other countries should be able to criticize each other. The US has a different history and our issues / causes are different.
The thread also made me look up the refugee settlement programs and legalized immigration trends.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...things-you-dont-know-about-refugees-in-the-us
Point 1 was a pleasant surprise. But there is no doubt we should be doing more.
Also someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the US also has the highest rates of legalized immigration in the world.
There's a reason the US has a much bigger black population than all those countries and it's not because they tried to diversify. Also, there's more to diversity than how many "non-white" you have. And anyone can criticize anyone. I don't have to be a director to criticize a film and I don't have to be a politician to criticize congress.
This is a lie. RACE just isn't tracked. How is that still not clear lol
Here, have fun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany
Tables for foreigners and population with migrant background.
edit: That whole giant article features the word "black" exactly zero times.
Because outside of Europe, that's how they will be seen and treated. And I think that is the basis for the American conception of race.
It's not who you are, it's how you're seen.
There's no need to cherry pick anything. The EU had 1.2 million applications in just 2016 and 650,000 in 2017. As you can imagine, this is quite difficult to process on a country-by-country basis, cross-reference with applications in other EU countries, and also provide adequate food and shelter.
Whiteness and Blackness as they are used in large parts of the internet are malleable and chiefly American concepts. They simply do not have the same importance or meaning in most of Europe. Instead we have discrimination based on ethnicity, language and culture in general. Saying that Europe doesn't have the same experience as the US when it comes to race relations is a pointless and hilariously out of touch statement. You're gonna have to try harder than some 5 min Wikipedia research. Honestly, not even sure what the point of this question is. Of fucking course others can criticize the US. The United States government sticks their nose in other countries' business all the time.
Every 4th-5th person in Germany has a migrant background.
Every 4th in West Germany and every 16th in East Germany.
The younger you go the greater the amount of people with a migrant background.
In 2016 38.1% of children of age <5 had a migrant background and the number keeps rising.
There are cities where children with a migrant background are already the majority.
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-situation-in-deutschland/61646/migrationshintergrund-i&edit-text=&act=url
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Well, i see it this way, i am not gonna say that my country, Mexico, is a paradise free of prejudice and bigotry, but what i do notice in contrast to America is, even in modern time America there seems to be a huge feeling of segregation between communities, like mixed marriages are still seen as a taboo of sorts and you even see in the pop culture how it's still very portrayed as "[race] should only marry [same race]", it's 2018 and the perception of american society at large is that race mixed unions are "odd" when it shouldn't be so.
I can't speak for canada, but it feels like this "taboo" is less prevalent on the rest of americas, or at least in latin america that's for sure, Mexico might not achieve the same level of diversity, but there is no taboo for race mixing, because race mixing is so ingrained into our history and heritage since, like the days of the revolution for independence.
I can't speak for canada, but it feels like this "taboo" is less prevalent on the rest of americas, or at least in latin america that's for sure, Mexico might not achieve the same level of diversity, but there is no taboo for race mixing, because race mixing is so ingrained into our history and heritage since, like the days of the revolution for independence.
https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFa...AED11BE48BE5406EDFB140.InternetLive1#Tabellen
The idea that the German government doesn't track some differences in their population is false. We just don't use *race*, and most of us, myself included, will fight tooth and nails that it remains that way. And I have good company there, among them the central council of jews in germany. It has a *reason* that religious allegiance as a question in the census was already *highly* controversial here. If you think that it is the *right-wingers* that opposes racial tracking here, you've really got no clue. It's the left, *and* various minorities that in the US would be categorized with different races. Even the *census* itself is controversial here.
But the real reason that the US-race terms are useless here is another:
Europe is highly diverse and extremely fractured. If you leave us alone for 20 years, we'll manufacture 25 categories to seperate other groups in ways to discriminate against them, even if ten years ago there were no stereotypes at all.
Germany alone isn't homogenously German even if you only look at people that in the US would be uniformly German - ask a Bavarian if he's the same as a person from Nordrhein Westphalen, and you'll hear a "no" - and you could spend quite a while examining biases and, yes, racial stereotypes between both groups.
We didn't even need migrants from Africa to find people to have racist prejudice about - polish people ("lazy thieves that steal cars"), russian people ("criminals, violent, brutish"), italians ("lazy slackers that only care for sex and fun"), Sinti and Roma (I'm not even going to post the prejudices against them here, in case someone thinks I actually believe them, because some of that stuff is absolutely abhorrent), jews, several christian minorities (such as the Jehova's Witnesses). I could keep going just listing other *white* minorities that people in Europe have racial biases towards.
All of that would be "white" in the US. This isn't me saying that we have no racism here and that we're all equal. This is me saying that we've got plenty of racism here between whites, BEFORE we even get to various racist opinions against muslims, and their prejudices among themselves, or against blacks and asians. In other words, I'm literally and directly stating that it's quite bad over here, but not in the same way as it is in the US. It's a different continent. Applying the US understanding to it is missing the forest for the trees.
What in US terms is "one race" would often be over 20 different groups over here, meaning you'd miss wide ranges of racist prejudice entirely.
So why track that way, and not look at the actually relevant indicators? Why give legitimacy to "race" as a construct that is inherently meaningless and discredited since 1945?
[And for the person earlier claiming that there's totally no data anywhere, making us super surprised to have blacks here:
http://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/...ilotstudie_Mapping.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
This little report lists african migrant numbers in quite a lot of detail. On page 59, for example, you'll find a graph detailing the home countries of the registered people of african descent living in Bonn, a single City in Germany). You can find a ton of stuff in there - which cities have most people of african descent, which city has most women of african descent (Hamburg), which city has the highest percentage of people from that continent (Darmstadt, with 1.1%), and so on, and so on.
Like, seriously people, we're not surprised about this kind of stuff.]
User has been permanently banned: blatant racism
Can you explain why average heterozygosity in humans is about the same as in Plain Zebras or Wildcats, yet modern taxonomy recognizes different subspecies in them, but not in humans?
I don't think there's any argument to that. It's quite clear that these factors influence life at a variety of levels. However, not quantifying the racial makeup of a country does not necessarily make economic inequalities or disparities in economic mobility and possibilities invisible. Migrant status, country of origin, years of schooling, etc. are all relevant variables that can serve as indicators of the aforementioned in order to make targeted policy decisions.
Are you implying that the humans have subspecies? (hence, subhumans?)
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