C.M. Koseman's and Simon Roy's DINOSAUROIDS - a vision of sapient dinosaurs in an alternate universe

[Sander VF]

So here's some really cool speculative evolution for ERA's dinonerds.

Some of you might be aware of Dale Russel's Dinosauroid from 1982, a postulation of what dinosaurs like Troodons, which are thought by some to have been some of the more intelligent may have evolved into if the asteroid didn't hit.

Nowadays the probability of a hypothetical sapient dinosaur looking like this Reptiloid motherfucker isn't seen as particularly high. In addition to the lac of feathers (anything descending from Maniraptorans, a dinosaur clade which Troodon and friggin BIRDS are a part of would be feathered as fuck ) the idea that anything sapient has to look humanoid is extremely human-centric. It is not really the case and it with how evolutionary process is a series of modifications of pre-existing traits for new purposes, it is really a giant leap to suppose that something with a Troodon body-plan would develop into a humanoid shape and still be remotely close on the evolutionary tree.

As zoologist Darren Naish put it:

"No, post-Cretaceous maniraptorans wouldn't end up looking like scaly tridactyl plantigrade humanoids with erect tailless bodies. They would be decked out with feathers and brightly coloured skin ornaments; have nice normal horizontal bodies and digitigrade feet; long, hard, powerful jaws; stride around on the savannah kicking the shit out of little mammals; and in the evenings they would stand together in the trees, booming out a duet of du du du-du, a deep noise that would reverberate for miles around..."

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This inspired C.M Koseman of the All Tomorrows fame and comic artist Simon Roy to create the vision of theoretical sapient species in-line with the above supposition, greatly inspired by modern, highly intelligent corvid birds.

Birdlike intelligent creatures that use their developed limbs AND beaks to manipulate tools.

The web-page of the project has tons of imaginative artwork, showing these species in stone age to bronze age levels of development (with a couple of concepts of medieval and space age scenes as well). There's tons of further worldbuilding as they detail speculative non-sapient dinosaurs AND mammals the various dinosauroid species share their environment with. They even made the cave paintings these creatures would create, it is really cool.

C. M. Kosemen - Dinosauroids

Here's also a handy video summarizing the artwork and concepts

 

[More_Badass]

Whoa, this is brilliant. I want to see so many stories in this world

 

[jph139]

Ah, that's dope - I'll look at anything by CM Koseman. I really like the idea of how species that aren't traditionally upright, bipedal creatures might develop tools and structures - so much of how we interact with the world is informed by that perspective.

 

[Sander VF]

Those smaller, unarmed and unclothed dinosaurs in the hunting pic are their equivalent of dogs, from what I understand.

 

[Sander VF]

The reservations about tight clothes in the other thread kinda revealed to me why these dinosauroids aren't fully clothed even after they reach Bronze Age.

A good call by Koseman and Roy

The far future sketches of a dinosauroid knight in full armor and an astronaut in a space suit are fully covered, but those are by absolute necessity.

 

[somerandomweirdguy]

Saw this a month or two back. Fucking stunning work. I'd kill to see a movie or series set in this universe.

 

[Sander VF]

Whoa, this is brilliant. I want to see so many stories in this world

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Saw this a month or two back. Fucking stunning work. I'd kill to see a movie or series set in this universe.

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Yeah, this is the kind of shit you'd want your story to Isekai into.

Or perhaps you don't even need humans.

 

[Shemhazai]

Honestly, the claim that they wouldn't look like the upright biped is just as silly as the original claim. In the cretaceous period, humans ancestors were quadrupedal squirrel-like animals. When you're talking over 50m years there's a lot of potential for change.

The art's still cool though.

 

[Mr Paptimus]

Really It's cool. I might just steal some of these for my tabletop game.

 

[Sander VF]

Honestly, the claim that they wouldn't look like the upright biped is just as silly as the original claim. In the cretaceous period, humans ancestors were quadrupedal squirrel-like animals. When you're talking over 50m years there's a lot of potential for change.

The art's still cool though.

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It is not as much about definitive impossibility as much is it is about likelihood.

I don't even think an upright biped with a shortened tail is that far-fetched, but I would still think of something more along the lines of a lankier penguin with hands than Russel's lizard man or even a feathered version of it.

 

[Digital Dinosaur]

Honestly, the claim that they wouldn't look like the upright biped is just as silly as the original claim. In the cretaceous period, humans ancestors were quadrupedal squirrel-like animals. When you're talking over 50m years there's a lot of potential for change.

The art's still cool though.

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Squirrel-like mammals though were moving in a direction that would encourage the path towards tree-climbing primates.

The thing about bipedal but non-humanoid dinosaurs is they were already dominant with their existing morphology. Millions of years later and their descendants have retained the same framework. Even when coming back down from the skies and getting large once more.

These evil sons of bitches:

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... might be rulers of all they survey just as they are, if the primates didn't have bullets.

 

[Shemhazai]

It is not as much about definitive impossibility as much is it is about likelihood.

I don't even think an upright biped with a shortened tail is that far-fetched, but I would still think of something more along the lines of a lankier penguin with hands than Russel's lizard man or even a feathered version of it.

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Yeah, but I mean, 66 million years ago, this was humanity:

There's as much similarity between modern humans and purgatorius as troodons and the imagined humanoid creature. Like, literally, it stands horizontally, has a long tail, and a long pointed skull, much like a troodon.

Evolution be crazy.

 

[Sander VF]

Yeah, but I mean, 66 million years ago, this was humanity:

There's as much similarity between modern humans and purgatorius as troodons and the imagined humanoid creature. Like, literally, it stands horizontally, has a long tail, and a long pointed skull, much like a troodon.

Evolution be crazy.

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Indeed, given enough time and right pressures and selection, evolution can shape anything into anything, as long as it is within the realm of physics.

However, Russel's lizard-man (or an alternative birdman, I guess) is such a massive leap for Troodon. With the original reasoning of "this is how a big-brained sapient dinosaur would naturally have to be shaped like" discarded, you have to follow a very specific, presumably primate-like evolutionary history to arrive at a man-shaped dinosaur. Quite a few mammals were already all up in them trees during the times of dinosaurs. For Troodon in particular, I imagine you'd have to force it up the trees, then have its tree-dwelling descendants undergo some specific pressures that would force primate-like body plans that would then be primed to go through human-like evolution after coming down from the trees.

It is such a funky evolutionary history, especially for something like a Troodon or a Dromeosaur. There were actually some tree-dwelling dinosaurs among the Maniraptorans it would make more sense for, like Scansoripteryx

Like, the convergent dinoman certainly ain't impossible, but I find these huge handy corvids so much more probable. Even for upright bipedalism I'd still look at something like a penguin (a real-life upright bipedal dinosaur) for pointers than a human.

 

[Dice]

I wanted to believe.