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Antrax

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Oct 25, 2017
13,758
Lets be clear, no deal is not the default and its not something that happens due to inaction.

It most definitely is. Once A50 was passed, the UK jumped out of the plane. No Deal is the ground. Parliament passing a bunch of acts saying "we've ruled out the ground" is pointless without them actively picking a parachute.

They had referendums on the EU membership for years now. There was even a period of time before the referendum results came out and UK activating it. If this was such a serious consideration for anyone involved they would have at minimum discussed this long before we reached this point considering how big of an issue it is.

We didn't reach this point by chance.

The EU didn't think it was a loophole. In fact, A50 is pretty blatantly written to never be used because it's crazy.

Remember, the UK went to court for that right to unilateral revocation. IE it wasn't something the EU just allowed. The EU didn't want the court to rule that way. The UK did (who are still in and can do whatever to block any rewriting of A50 as well).

Make no mistake: A50 is getting changed in the same week the UK leaves. The EU will be closing that loophole. And if the UK does pull the "revoke and re-pass" trick to extend their time, the EU will end all negotiations with the UK and the UK can get eviscerated on trade by the US and China (and the EU lol) since the UK will certainly not have access to any large market at that point.

EU leaders have been mostly cards down for the past 3 years, but I'd wager their private thoughts on the UK are a lot closer to Macron's than not. None of them are going to be falling over themselves to help the UK with a mess they unilaterally (pun intended) created.
 

brain_stew

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,385
Remember, the UK went to court for that right to unilateral revocation. IE it wasn't something the EU just allowed. The EU didn't want the court to rule that way. The UK did (who are still in and can do whatever to block any rewriting of A50 as well).

The UK government argued against unilateral revocation of article 50 not for it.
 

correojon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,410
It most definitely is. Once A50 was passed, the UK jumped out of the plane. No Deal is the ground. Parliament passing a bunch of acts saying "we've ruled out the ground" is pointless without them actively picking a parachute.



The EU didn't think it was a loophole. In fact, A50 is pretty blatantly written to never be used because it's crazy.

Remember, the UK went to court for that right to unilateral revocation. IE it wasn't something the EU just allowed. The EU didn't want the court to rule that way. The UK did (who are still in and can do whatever to block any rewriting of A50 as well).

Make no mistake: A50 is getting changed in the same week the UK leaves. The EU will be closing that loophole. And if the UK does pull the "revoke and re-pass" trick to extend their time, the EU will end all negotiations with the UK and the UK can get eviscerated on trade by the US and China (and the EU lol) since the UK will certainly not have access to any large market at that point.

EU leaders have been mostly cards down for the past 3 years, but I'd wager their private thoughts on the UK are a lot closer to Macron's than not. None of them are going to be falling over themselves to help the UK with a mess they unilaterally (pun intended) created.
When the the court established that UK could unilaterally revoke article 50 it was also said that it could do so only in good faith, meaning that retriggering article 50 was not possible:
ECJ said:
The ruling said revocation should be "unequivocal and unconditional", suggesting that the UK could not simply revoke Article 50 in order to buy more time and then resubmit it at a later date.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,758
The UK government argued against unilateral revocation of article 50 not for it.

This isn't quite correct. The UK argued that the Court should just not rule on it at all (as they argued it was all hypothetical). That's not arguing against it.

When the the court established that UK could unilaterally revoke article 50 it was also said that it could do so only in good faith, meaning that retriggering article 50 was not possible:

This is true. Though I agree with a lot of legal arguments that this ultimately doesn't mean much. I don't see how, if the UK withdrew A50, they wouldn't have the right to invoke it again. The court would certainly never rule that the UK had lost its right to A50 forever, so then it comes down to what period of time must the UK wait to invoke again if it wanted.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,715
Is he gambling on winning an election? Last timne that worked they ended up in teh current situation. Problem also is, there is no real time for elections before the due date (87 days left), and he would absolutely lose if he extends Brexit (and their chances of winning are even worse once reality hits in case of no deal).

Edit: edited wording.

Boris Johnson is more than willing to gamble on such things, and realistically the path forward for the Conservatives is enormously risky:

Fail to get Brexit done > they get annihilated by BXP
Somehow get No Deal through and Brexit goes badly > they get annihilated LD/Lab
Somehow get WA through and Brexit goes badly > they get annihilated from both sides

The Conservatives are fucked if Brexit doesn't happen AND if Brexit doesn't go well. That's an extremely risky position to be in given all of the analysis about Brexit.

In terms of timing, there is plenty of time technically, but MPs are currently on recess. By the end of the recess, there is still time, but it would be tight. I would think Boris' ideal is to be forced into the general election, which is one of the possible conclusions of a vote of no confidence. It gives him the perfect platform to get BXP voters on side which is all he things he needs to do.
 
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Feb 19, 2018
2,146
Boris Johnson is more than willing to gamble on such things, and realistically the path forward for the Conservatives is enormously risky:

Fail to get Brexit done > they get annihilated by BXP
Somehow get No Deal through and Brexit goes badly > they get annihilated LD/Lab
Somehow get WA through and Brexit goes badly > they get annihilated from both sides

The Conservatives are fucked if Brexit doesn't happen AND if Brexit doesn't go well. That's an extremely risky position to be in given all of the analysis about Brexit.

In terms of timing, there is plenty of time technically, but MPs are currently on recess. By the end of the recess, there is still time, but it would be tight. I would think Boris' ideal is to be forced into the general election, which is one of the possible conclusions of a vote of no confidence. It gives him the perfect platform to get BXP voters on side which is all he things he needs to do.
I think Boris is totally aware no deal is going to be a shitshow but he's banking on an election in the near future so he has time to "turn things around" and can pretend he had democracy legitimacy for it off 30% of the vote.
 

Deleted member 5028

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Oct 25, 2017
9,724
Boris Johnson is more than willing to gamble on such things, and realistically the path forward for the Conservatives is enormously risky:

Fail to get Brexit done > they get annihilated by BXP
Somehow get No Deal through and Brexit goes badly > they get annihilated LD/Lab
Somehow get WA through and Brexit goes badly > they get annihilated from both sides

The Conservatives are fucked if Brexit doesn't happen AND if Brexit doesn't go well. That's an extremely risky position to be in given all of the analysis about Brexit.

In terms of timing, there is plenty of time technically, but MPs are currently on recess. By the end of the recess, there is still time, but it would be tight. I would think Boris' ideal is to be forced into the general election, which is one of the possible conclusions of a vote of no confidence. It gives him the perfect platform to get BXP voters on side which is all he things he needs to do.
They want to ship Brexit then hand off the disaster to Labour. That way they delivered on the promise but it's not their fault for the shitshow that follows
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,337
They want to ship Brexit then hand off the disaster to Labour. That way they delivered on the promise but it's not their fault for the shitshow that follows

From my experience with many politicians, they never, *ever* want to hand away power. Ever. No matter the circumstances and shit show, no matter how strategically beneficial it would be. They would always prefer to hold on.
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,776
Yeah I feel like that's a ready identifier for how fucking weird/different politicians can be: I can't think of anything worse than holding this poison chalice, but they want it.
 

gosublime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,673
Yep - imagine wanting to be PM, with a working majority of one and a crisis coming up of entirely your own making. I would want to be as far away as possible, but Boris Johnson still wanted the job.
 

danowat

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,783
Matt Hancock - "I used to think no deal is a bad idea, but I've changed my mind"

Firstly, self serving a-hole, of course he now supports it, it's part of being in the government, and secondly, it seems apparent that you can only change your about no deal being a bad idea it seems....
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,776
Matt Hancock - "I used to think no deal is a bad idea, but I've changed my mind"

Firstly, self serving a-hole, of course he now supports it, it's part of being in the government, and secondly, it seems apparent that you can only change your about no deal being a bad idea it seems....

It's a sick joke how this whole 'No Deal is GREAT!' dance macabre rests on a conceit for honouring democracy, of being principled, of 'doing what is right'... and yet that's expressed by utter cowardness, utter deceit, utter mendacity. It couldn't be any other way, obviously. It's a perennial Brexit thing: to be the best Britain we can be, we have to seriously put at risk everything 'we' supposedly hold dear: principles (so free, much sovereignty), the Union, our reputation, our position in history, our economy. Patriotism, innit.

For a population that supposedly hates politicians taking the piss, we haven't half let them make us look like absolute fucking chumps (and I have a suspicion, not unreasonable, that the Leave vote would see a significant proportion of the 'all MPs are shits, all useless, expenses scandal etc etc' crowd, i.e. those who mistrust politicians a priori... and then their saviours are the worst examples we've had for a very long time...)
 
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Deleted member 862

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Oct 25, 2017
8,646
imagine looking at another 52/48 thinking that's a mandate

with Boris and Brexit you would think this would well over 60% if it was serious.
 

Masquerader

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Nov 4, 2017
1,383
52% in favour BEFORE we've actually left the EU is an insanely huge swing. I can only see it increasing over time if things keep going as they are. Besides, the gloves are off when it comes to majorities. If 51.9% is enough for a country to happily throw itself off of a cliff, then 52% for a far more idealistic goal is now a perfectly reasonable percentage to brag about, in 2019 at least.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,715
It's incredible how close we've got to a near future where the United Kingdom is England & Wales outside of the European Union...
 

Deleted member 8579

Oct 26, 2017
33,843
You never know how high it will get once people see more of the incoming shit show if it continues but still, for independence doesn't mean you are for the EU but they may just punch the ticket anyway. Will be interesting to see.
 

plagiarize

Khive rise up
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Oct 25, 2017
28,384
Cape Cod, MA
One thing that's going to discourage people, that they probably aren't thinking about, is while it would have been one thing to go independent if the expectation was both countries would ultimately still be in the EU, the England / Scottish border is going to make the EIRE/NI border issue look insignificant if Scotland exits the UK.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,261
One thing that's going to discourage people, that they probably aren't thinking about, is while it would have been one thing to go independent if the expectation was both countries would ultimately still be in the EU, the England / Scottish border is going to make the EIRE/NI border issue look insignificant if Scotland exits the UK.

uhh is it? Is it really? Must have missed the Scottish/Northumbrian troubles.
 

Kanhir

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,938
Let's say Boris continues to refuse Scottish independence, the SNP do an advisory referendum anyway and it's objectively in favour of independence.

What then?

Will Scotland be able to unilaterally leave the union? Will Spain hold back its EU veto considering the circumstances, or will they do it anyway because of Catalonia?

One thing that's going to discourage people, that they probably aren't thinking about, is while it would have been one thing to go independent if the expectation was both countries would ultimately still be in the EU, the England / Scottish border is going to make the EIRE/NI border issue look insignificant if Scotland exits the UK.
The Ireland/NI border is over three times the length and has significantly more crossing points than the England/Scotland border. Plus, Scotland doesn't have a storied history of terrorist attacks on border crossings. In theory it'll be far easier.

(Also, please don't say "Eire" in English, it has negative historical baggage associated with it.)
 

Deleted member 8579

Oct 26, 2017
33,843
One thing that's going to discourage people, that they probably aren't thinking about, is while it would have been one thing to go independent if the expectation was both countries would ultimately still be in the EU, the England / Scottish border is going to make the EIRE/NI border issue look insignificant if Scotland exits the UK.

Apparently there is only around 5 major crossings into Scotland, maybe about 20 or so otherwise compared to over a hundred in Ireland which surprised me and actually means it wouldn't be on that level. Still a shit show though as single market and not if things go that way but I thought like you it would be off the scale but less crossing than I imagined.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Scottish_border

96 miles.
 

plagiarize

Khive rise up
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Oct 25, 2017
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The Ireland/NI border is over three times the length and has significantly more crossing points than the England/Scotland border. Plus, Scotland doesn't have a storied history of terrorist attacks on border crossings. In theory it'll be far easier.
To your first point I'm under the belief that there is far more traffic of people, services and goods across the border between England and Scotland border day in and day out, but I can't find figures to confirm this. If I'm wrong, I'm always happy to be put straight. It hasn't been a real border for a much longer period of time than in other case, which also speaks to your second point that violence hasn't been happening there recently, and I believe making it a real border introduces much greater challenges.

But then I believe the issue in Ireland has a simple and probable solution. Reunification.

(Also, please don't say "Eire" in English, it has negative historical baggage associated with it.)
I'll take your word on this either way and act accordingly, but I'd still like to read more on this. I've studied the history of the formation of NI. Most of my family still live in the Republic and are unionists. A quick googling surfaced nothing.
 

Deleted member 31104

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2,572
One thing that's going to discourage people, that they probably aren't thinking about, is while it would have been one thing to go independent if the expectation was both countries would ultimately still be in the EU, the England / Scottish border is going to make the EIRE/NI border issue look insignificant if Scotland exits the UK.

Logistically a Scottish border is a piece of piss. It's largely defined by geographical barriers, there's only 1 motorway crossing and only 24 other crossing points each of which is largely surrounded by undeveloped farm land which could be easily used for the technological border Brexiters have up their sleeve. There's probably more crossings than between ROI and NI (although you'd be surprised as one of the major roads in Ireland crosses the border 3 times in 2 miles.
 
OP
OP
Uzzy

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
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Oct 25, 2017
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Hull, UK
Boris Johnson has no intention of renegotiating Brexit deal, EU told.

Boris Johnson has no intention of renegotiating the withdrawal agreement and a no-deal Brexit is his "central scenario", EU diplomats have been briefed following a meeting between the prime minister's chief envoy and officials in Brussels.

David Frost, who replaced Olly Robbins as the government's chief Europe adviser, was said to have instead sought to discuss how negotiations could be reset after the UK crashes out on 31 October, during his recent talks with senior EU figures.

The lack of any proposal on how to deal with the controversial Irish backstop was felt to be significant by the EU officials.

Frost was said to have told the officials that a technological solution to the Irish border was the UK's preferred option before admitting that "it would not be ready now for Brexit".

"Even if EU gave up the backstop there is no alternative," a diplomat concluded of the discussion.

"That message has now gone loud and clear to capitals, it was useful to hear it from the horse's mouth," the EU source said. "Reality is sinking in."

The chances of a No Deal Brexit coming to the UK are a million to one, he said.
But still, it comes.
 
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newline

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
475
London, United Kingdom
Boris Johnson has no intention of renegotiating Brexit deal, EU told
At least the charade has been dropped, we're in endgame now.

Frost was said to have told the officials that a technological solution to the Irish border was the UK's preferred option before admitting that "it would not be ready now for Brexit".

"Even if EU gave up the backstop there is no alternative," a diplomat concluded of the discussion.

"That message has now gone loud and clear to capitals, it was useful to hear it form horse's mouth," the EU source said. "Reality is sinking in."
Pretty fucking hilarious to read about insanity finally meeting reality.
 
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plagiarize

Khive rise up
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Oct 25, 2017
28,384
Cape Cod, MA
How long until parliament come back again? Cause I don't think we can know for sure what we're looking at even short term until then. I'm still not convinced whether or not Boris is bluffing. It'll become clear soon, but until people start making actual moves, it's too hard for me to make my mind up.
 

Deleted member 862

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Rudd is a true believe now.

Boris is lazy and incompetent so none of this comes as a surprise. The goal has always been to stop them because after May was forced out after she met with Labour there's never been the chance of a better deal.

I do wonder if they'll try and collapse the government and go for an election or actually try and put it to a second ref. Maybe the second ref is better option for the opposition right now (even if it's a massive risk) because it concentrates their efforts.
 

Benjamin1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
623
Parliament comes together September 3rd. Take your time and enjoy your holiday. No urgent matters to deal with right now.
 

Geeker

Member
May 11, 2019
632
What an absolute shitshow. Pretty much time to book a flight and bolt out of here on oct 30th.

Any hope that financial markets will knock some sense into them? I suppose not if they have all shorted everything in any case. Riots and sensible MPs is the only hope pretty much
 

Deleted member 34788

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3,545
Is he gambling on winning an election? Last timne that worked they ended up in teh current situation. Problem also is, there is no real time for elections before the due date (87 days left), and he would absolutely lose if he extends Brexit (and their chances of winning are even worse once reality hits in case of no deal).

Edit: edited wording.



Nah, he'll try and ram tons of shit through parliament try and fail, try for no deal and fail, tory rebels will try and put amendments in and fail on the ones they need most to pass, until a VoNC is called at the last minute, planned by lab, and the handful of rebels vote against BoJo and it comes crashing down for him.

The rebels know full well that a no deal by BoJo will nuke the party. So they'll do everything to protect that, and may and co will give them golden handshakes for doing so.

Cummings misfired with his bullshit remarks about BoJo staying on even after a no deal and/or a VonC is passed. The team he has have not paid a fucking dime to what killed may and are intent or repeating it quickfast.

HoC is a shit show but one thing they will not tolerate is a no deal brexit and the perceived authority being fucked off by a PM. Arguably may was better liked then BoJo and even she could not get her outcome agreed to.


Boris Johnson is more than willing to gamble on such things, and realistically the path forward for the Conservatives is enormously risky:

Fail to get Brexit done > they get annihilated by BXP
Somehow get No Deal through and Brexit goes badly > they get annihilated LD/Lab
Somehow get WA through and Brexit goes badly > they get annihilated from both sides

The Conservatives are fucked if Brexit doesn't happen AND if Brexit doesn't go well. That's an extremely risky position to be in given all of the analysis about Brexit.

In terms of timing, there is plenty of time technically, but MPs are currently on recess. By the end of the recess, there is still time, but it would be tight. I would think Boris' ideal is to be forced into the general election, which is one of the possible conclusions of a vote of no confidence. It gives him the perfect platform to get BXP voters on side which is all he things he needs to do.

The BXP voters won't come back en masse, the no dealers have thier BXP foil on farage. He is busy in the US getting his millions in dark money to fight the Tories in a GE. Sure the wider public do not like him, but he can cause enough havoc and damage then split in the right wing vote that they win seats in an GE and play the looong game with the Tories. They can afford to lose an election, 2 even, as long as they slowly infiltrate the Tories more and more.

Cummings not breifing about a election and rather the shit coming out of his mouth is a bad, bad move. Sure arrogance is one thing, as evidenced by May, but the hubris the cabinet is showing is not good for them.
 
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FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
10,136
Metro Detroit
What an absolute shitshow. Pretty much time to book a flight and bolt out of here on oct 30th.

Any hope that financial markets will knock some sense into them? I suppose not if they have all shorted everything in any case. Riots and sensible MPs is the only hope pretty much
It hasn't been an economic issue for a long time, it's an identity issue. The stock market and experts wont put a dent in it.
 
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