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Brad Bird gives tone deaf response on why we never see Frozone’s wife in the Incredibles
- Thread starter RastaMentality
- Start date
I joined in because it wasn't a decent discussion though. Y'all throwing around harmful stereotypes like it's nothing when we're all supposed to be trying to rid the world of them. Wtf are you talking about.
I thought we're trying to fight stereotypes and rasicm. Not fucking fuel it for fuck sake.
No, the premise of the conversation is that the response is tone deaf because the stereotypical nature of her voice in conjunction with the statement of "she's funnier as a voice" given the representation of black women in media/film/animation.
You're right, people voiced their criticism with the character pretty plainly and were shouted down as being SJWs from the start.
I posted this on page 4, and one person responded to me saying that they understood but thought it was still overblown.
No wait you didn't respond to my comment though!
I feel like that's a reasonable and rational point to bring up that's important to what is being discussed here.
Is it still called white fragility when someone gets up in arms over the media they consume being called out?
This completely ignores the context of the quote I already provided where Brad Bird specifically mentions that Frozone being the first black walk-around character in Disneyland means he feels they've "done ok."
You entire point rests on the idea that context given in the quote combined with the stereotypical portrayal in the first film means absolutely nothing because we haven't seen the character and Bird never specifically states "Honey Best is black." To argue that point completely ignores the rules of language and communication. You're trying to argue a strange variant of correlation isn't causation but to do so you're dismissing key contextual information, some of which comes from the creator themselves.
I would assume any thread where people are saying "Oh, so by that you mean . . . "
or
"Hmm, but I guess that how you view . . . ."
or
"Sorry, but your assumption that all . . . "
If you don't see people putting words in eachothers mouths, assuming and assigning motive I don't know what to say.
That's probably just defending what media you like. If they were white and upset you pointed out something is racist against minorities that would be white fragility.
Nah it started to get better this page with people realizing the issues people had
Again I am going to have to disagree. The artist has every right to defend his work, especially when it comes up 14 years after the films release. As far as her voice, her first response is normal and only escalates after Frozone's tone gets more agitated and hits high gear when she realizes her night out is in jeopardy. In that short period of time they show her change. Her tone was not as one dimensional as 's being portrayed here.
Scrolling from the top of the page to the bottom of the page real fast...
Oh that's actually pretty coo-
Oh.
To be fair, Pixar's track record for PoC barely exists until Coco and The Incredible's' Frozone (and his unseen wife) hardly set a high bar before that.
In terms of 'stealing a voice from black women', though an incredibly concerning issue, I'm not sure really works in this context as a particular strong example since it's going against some of its more comedic aspect.
Article said:
This is just an irksome read; it's really taking Bird's statement to heart in ways that's really hard to explain yourself otherwise without coming off as insulting.
Tons and tooooons of stuff gets left on the cutting room floor for films and Bird went for the comedic effect of an off-screen "threat".
Also from pages ago
My guess was always like...Trinidadian or something. :S
Last edited:
Irksome indeed. And the author even uses the same "but in x it's ok so in y it is too," logic.
On that character it was just nice to see Elizabeth Pena's in something.
Edit: Oh God, I looked to see what she was up to and she died in 2014. What a loss.
Ya cause I'm a racist... because ppl look for racism from anything nowadays. Yes Pixar has a problem with representation. But this is not an issue.im noticing a trend lol
User Warned: Being dismissive towards and misrepresenting other users' concerns on issues related to race. History of similar behaviour.
Yep. Look who it is. Found your story of the day to cry about? Keep looking for racism and you'll find it in anything brother.
His first post in this thread:
sweet insult tho
It's not a great look when it's the only dynamic. A one off joke in the first film... ok sure. To do the same thing for the same joke in the second film though and I don't think it's excessive that some people are disappointed.
Something that a lot of people are missing is that it's not an issue of "I think this is racist." as much as it's "Do better Pixar. Do better Brad Bird."
Fantastic explanation. The underlying issue here isn't Bird's intent, it's how his use of a stereotypical "sassy black wife" style of vocal delivery for a black woman character reinforces a negative stereotype for laughs.
It's likely very under the surface for him, but it's still not a great creative decision given the context and delivery. The core concept is amusing, the execution calls into question just why some think that stereotype (probably without realizing it is one) is funny.
How would you feel if the only female character of your race was just a voice who happened to be a negative stereotype and never fully represented in a Pixar film?
Well, that's an interesting expression, when you consider just how throwaway black characters have been in media for so long. I mean, we all know the trope about "the black guy" in horror films, right?
See, it's the quiet pervasiveness of stereotypes that's so damaging. They get reinforced, even when the people engaging in things that reinforce them would normally never do it intentionally themselves. It makes bad actors out of decent people. Systemic racism, even down to the bedrock of low-level "harmless" stereotypes, is a real thing.
:(
I mean, I feel for this issue, but this is a small bit role for a non-character for the sake of getting one silly joke out (ignoring the sassy black girl talk, which is an issue); the joke could have just as been easily cut or the character could not have existed at all — she exists for this one thing, she's basically an NPC to play off a quick skit with a more vital secondary character.
The Incredibles isn't really about Frozone nor his wife; it does have a lot to say about families, and that's why Frozone's bit was in there as suitable since it examines his family. But, like it or not, this isn't their movie, their roles are only gonna be so big; and Bird ran with a running gag of an 'offscreen foil' which isn't typically affiliated with any one race (and just happened in this one). Rather than break down every possible meaning of something (that's not to say that some posts here aren't concerning with how to casually dismiss an argument), the bigger and better question is the lack of PoC heroes which they might be getting better at as evidenced with Coco.
Isn't the trope more of a 'husband under the thumb' kind of thing, which has been used countless times with couples of all ethnic backgrounds
You know, Honey's lack of screentime doesn't bother me that much either, but the bolded part made me realize I never really gave much thought to that point and it's very true.
Just gonna copy and paste this from my previous post:
How would you feel if the only female character of your race was just a voice who happened to be a negative stereotype and never fully represented in a Pixar film?
Seeing this thread, I was absolutely right when it came to hyper defensiveness toward Bird/The Incredibles. I'll add comedy to it too.
But whew boy, it also tells me what to await when it comes to situations involving microaggressions, namely when aimed at black women. Not a good look Era.
This isn't a major thing, and won't be. Just a small disappointment for a trope carrying over.
In other words...
But whew boy, it also tells me what to await when it comes to situations involving microaggressions, namely when aimed at black women. Not a good look Era.
This isn't a major thing, and won't be. Just a small disappointment for a trope carrying over.
In other words...
Yeah, don't remember any black toys, fish, bugs or rats, not sure about black cars and monsters. The reason might be simple, nobody cared if this might turn into an issue one day. But I can't believe it happened out of any kind of bad intention.
Edit: Think there was a good share of black people on ship in Wall-E
That trope is definitely in use here. Doesn't mean that there also isn't a stereotype at play.
Very few posters if any are alleging that the scene exists just to push that stereotype. It's just disappointing that the only black woman in a Pixar movie is, so far, portrayed that way.
