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Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
I saw that after I made the post and it's incredibly disheartening. Didn't they fucking learn from the last election?

Only 55% of citizens who had the right to vote did in 2016.

I understand the political narrative of blaming the fraction of a fraction that Bernie or bust people represent in the overall us population, but I don't buy it at all.

That's cool an all, with the Supreme Court in the balance (AA,women's and LGBT rights with it), and kids in cages, it's bullshit. Bernie or bust voters come from a position of immense privilege. They know their lives won'e be affected.

Can't disagree with this though!
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
so what exactly would you do with these people if you're not willing to try and change them? Shoot them into the sun?
If the goal is to change them why is the Sanders campaign's response to this just a victory lap for an endorsement?

Why not use it as a chance to actually discuss the problems with Rogan's history to better educate he and his viewers?

Or is it simply that if they'll vote Bernie it really doesn't matter what else they believe.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
If the goal is to change them why is the Sanders campaign's response to this just a victory lap for an endorsement?

Why not use it as a chance to actually discuss the problems with Rogan's history to better educate he and his viewers?

Or is it simply that if they'll vote Bernie it really doesn't matter what else they believe.

I'm assuming this is rhetorical. You know full well what the answer to this question is.
 

BIG JODY

Member
Nov 21, 2018
20
"Vote for my candidate or I'm staying home, we have to beat Trump!"

Compelling.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I personally will vote for whoever the Dem nom is. But, logically, if you believe these numbers to be true. And you believe a large percentage of Sanders supporters will not vote for the Dem nom if it isn't Sanders, the left will lose the election again to Trump. So, if all above is true, you should hope Sanders wins. Because that's the only chance the left has according to this poll (and 2016).

Or you can hope enough of the 47% in this poll begrudgingly vote for the Democratic candidate to win the election. I don't have faith that will happen.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
Only 55% of citizens who had the right to vote did in 2016.

I understand the political narrative of blaming the fraction of a fraction that Bernie or bust people represent in the overall us population, but I don't buy it at all.
Sanders' core supporters not showing up isn't where he did real damage to Clinton in the 2016 election. Him running around the rust belt railing against NAFTA and TPP as the Democratic establishment sending jobs overseas for corporate gains was the real blow. Come the election there was massive drop in white working class support for the Dem party in the rust belt, and union voting block powers are weaker than they've ever been.

That damage will take literally decades for the Dem party to come back from and is likely one of the main reasons why Ohio really isn't even close to a swing state anymore.

I'm assuming this is rhetorical. You know full well what the answer to this question is.
Of course, though I'd love for a Sanders die hard to actually give a response. Threads like these are when the Sanders base lets you know what their strongest convictions really are.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,810
If the goal is to change them why is the Sanders campaign's response to this just a victory lap for an endorsement?

Why not use it as a chance to actually discuss the problems with Rogan's history to better educate he and his viewers?

Or is it simply that if they'll vote Bernie it really doesn't matter what else they believe.
If the point of going on the podcast is to spread his platform to more people and possibly earn new supporters, plugging the interview by calling the podcast host and all of the listeners ignorant bigots is a terrible idea. Yeah, it would be rad, but counterintuitive to why he went on there in the first place. He didn't go on the podcast so he can now have an important discussion about casual racism in our culture, he went on the podcast to campaign.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,848
If the point of going on the podcast is to spread his platform to more people and possibly earn new supporters, plugging the interview by calling the podcast host and all of the listeners ignorant bigots is a terrible idea. Yeah, it would be rad, but counterintuitive to why he went on there in the first place. He didn't go on the podcast so he can now have an important discussion about casual racism in our culture, he went on the podcast to campaign.

he already had visibility to Joe Rogan's viewers. Rogan's endorsement is on his podcast. This ad instead exposes Bernie's supporters who did not watch Joe Rogan to Rogan's podcast.
 

bill crystals

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,079
Gotta laugh at people trying to bend themselves into pretzels finding a reason why Bernie is the reason Hillary lost in 2016. Trump didn't win in 2016, Hillary lost.
 

MassiveNights

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,444
I fish for guests, but his association with these right wing figures is much stronger than with any left wing figures. Joe's a pretty big conspiracy theory guy, and that lends itself more to right wing nutters. Additionally, he's out there regularly defending guys like Stephen Crowder and bitching about censorship of right wing figures. Fuck, he was complaining about James O'Keefe getting demonetized not long ago.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he is a certified good guy. But I also don't think he is a He Who Shall Not Be Named type, especially with regards to this whole Bernie thing.

I'm not American so it's not my fight, but I would suggest the worst thing about the Joe Rogan bubble is actually his guests and not him, so if more of those guests are people like Bernie and less like right wing youtube crazies, that's a good thing for me.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
If the point of going on the podcast is to spread his platform to more people and possibly earn new supporters, plugging the interview by calling the podcast host and all of the listeners ignorant bigots is a terrible idea. Yeah, it would be rad, but counterintuitive to why he went on there in the first place. He didn't go on the podcast so he can now have an important discussion about casual racism in our culture, he went on the podcast to campaign.
So what is he campaigning for?

Because per your own response it apparently has zero to do with minorities and gender non-conforming people to be treated equally.

After the interview where he got to run out his bog standard stump and Rogan did the whole endorsement video, instead of cutting clips as a victory lap why not give a polite thank you followed by reasoned criticism?

Or is that not the time and place either?

And if he can't have that discussion without calling Rogan and his listeners ignorant bigots maybe he's simply not qualified to govern a nation that needs to do a lot more than just have that conversation.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,225
Don't get me wrong, I don't think he is a certified good guy. But I also don't think he is a He Who Shall Not Be Named type, especially with regards to this whole Bernie thing.

I'm not American so it's not my fight, but I would suggest the worst thing about the Joe Rogan bubble is actually his guests and not him, so if more of those guests are people like Bernie and less like right wing youtube crazies, that's a good thing for me.

Some of his bigoted guests aren't even this brazen with what they say publicly.

 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
Gotta laugh at people trying to bend themselves into pretzels finding a reason why Bernie is the reason Hillary lost in 2016. Trump didn't win in 2016, Hillary lost.
Sanders has direct culpability in the loss, as does Clinton.

Sanders spent about a year actively poisoning middle class voters against core Democratic policies that do, despite Sanders' dopey ass fucking views, benefit the American people at large.

He's softened that rhetoric now because Trump already dismantled those systems and is conducting a trade war on top of their corpses, but about half of Trump's foreign economic policy to date dovetails perfectly with what Sanders was selling.

The place he sold it the hardest, the place where it polled as most appealing, and the swing states Clinton lost by the narrowest margin when originally polling to win, were the same handful of states.

The whole "he campaigned for her afterwards" narrative isn't effective when he already nuked the fuck out of the party's core economic platforms previously.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,810
So what is he campaigning for?

Because per your own response it apparently has zero to do with minorities and gender non-conforming people to be treated equally.

After the interview where he got to run out his bog standard stump and Rogan did the whole endorsement video, instead of cutting clips as a victory lap why not give a polite thank you followed by reasoned criticism?

Or is that not the time and place either?

And if he can't have that discussion without calling Rogan and his listeners ignorant bigots maybe he's simply not qualified to govern a nation that needs to do a lot more than just have that conversation.
It's fuck Joe Rogan all day, and if I was Bernie I would stay far away from this bullshit, but asking why he isn't out here condemning Joe Rogan and criticizing him seems silly, it's obvious why.

But yes, you're right, Bernie is a sexist misogynist, he's also a massive racist and a white supremacy sympathizer who hates the gay community and doesn't believe trans people should have rights.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,849
Norman, OK
I was in that thread and yes it was frustrating but again the majority of the dem supporters have not even remotely implied they're gonna just vote for Trump or not vote at all if their candidate loses the primary.

Then you're not paying attention. Almost half of Sanders' supporters are already saying they either will flatly not vote for the Dem nominee if it's not him, or that it will depend upon who it is, and we haven't even hit February yet. That's not a normal group of supporters- that's almost cult-ish. You think that's going to get better between now and April?

Your left unity bullshit is you implying that having disagreements over whether we should be welcoming bigots with open arms or not, which is what this currently is about, is tearing the democratic party apart.

Last week it was a handshake. This week it's Joe Rogan. Next week it will be something else. It all feeds the machine. The two people benefiting the most from it: Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump. There's really no arguing it.

You (and others) implying that this is about some altruistic stand against racism and transphobia is the real red herring. That's what it should be about. But that's not what I'm seeing. I'm seeing the same thing I saw in 2016: people jumping into trenches to either attack or defend a candidate damn near to the exclusion of everything else. And, most troubling- the candidates themselves are playing into it...again. Just like 2016.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
Oh you mean like how it's being reported she tried to get on his podcast?
By Rogan himself. As someone else pointed out, do you really think Warren, who won't do interviews with Fox News, and Biden, who basically only deals in perfectly manicured manstream coverage, were seriously courting Rogan?

Also, you have no idea how she would have handled the interview. Maybe she would have challenged him on his previous views. She's challenged plenty of other people for less offensive shit in the past.

All we know for sure is that he had Sanders on, Sanders did nothing to challenge him, and then when he endorsed Sanders the campaign treated it as something worth doing an unqualified victory lap over.

But yes, anything that looks like a misstep/wrong act by Sanders was actually the best, smartest move you could have made and any other candidate would have done far worse.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
22,883
And another goddamn thing.

Even John racist-ass McCain had the testicular fortitude to tell one of his own potential constituents to her face to shut up and sit down in regards to calling Obama a Muslim.

John-fucking-McCain.

He is the standard y'all are insisting Democrats cannot and should not live up to.

It is clown shoes for real.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
It's fuck Joe Rogan all day, and if I was Bernie I would stay far away from this bullshit, but asking why he isn't out here condemning Joe Rogan and criticizing him seems silly, it's obvious why.

But yes, you're right, Bernie is a sexist misogynist, he's also a massive racist and a white supremacy sympathizer who hates the gay community and doesn't believe trans people should have rights.
Hyperbole and straw men are not the debate tactics of someone with a firm footing on rational ground. Its the response of the indoctrinated when the evidence at hand conflicts with blind faith.

As for what Sanders is: He's an intellectually lazy narcissist who is ok with having racists, misogynists, and other bigots support him, and in turn signal boosting them to his supporters, if he finds it politically expedient.

In short, he's a politician like all the rest, but with less ability to actually work with fellow politicians, which ends up being a useful narrative when the average voter is a fucking dope looking for populist red meat to assuage their feelings of inadequacy.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
Hyperbole and straw men are not the debate tactics of someone with a firm footing on rational ground. Its the response of the indoctrinated when the evidence at hand conflicts with blind faith.

As for what Sanders is: He's an intellectually lazy narcissist who is ok with having racists, misogynists, and other bigots support him, and in turn signal boosting them to his supporters, if he finds it politically expedient.

In short, he's a politician like all the rest, but with less ability to actually work with fellow politicians, which ends up being a useful narrative when the average voter is a fucking dope looking for populist red meat to assuage their feelings of inadequacy.

I like how you decry hyperbole and strawmanning and then do 2 paragraphs of it.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,810
Hyperbole and straw men are not the debate tactics of someone with a firm footing on rational ground. Its the response of the indoctrinated when the evidence at hand conflicts with blind faith.

As for what Sanders is: He's an intellectually lazy narcissist who is ok with having racists, misogynists, and other bigots support him, and in turn signal boosting them to his supporters, if he finds it politically expedient.

In short, he's a politician like all the rest, but with less ability to actually work with fellow politicians, which ends up being a useful narrative when the average voter is a fucking dope looking for populist red meat to assuage their feelings of inadequacy.
Indoctrinated? What are you even talking about, I agree with you about Bernie, I don't particularly like any of the candidates as people tbh.

The policies of Warren and Sanders are the only things progressive about the entire race though, and I would be ecstatic to have either of them replace 45.
 

tsampikos

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,613
There's a difference between supporting something and courting somebody's influence who peddles that ideology to likeminded listeners. That's all. That's it.

As for the Democratic party, since you brought it up, do you think that racism and bigotry is unique to conservative people? There are plenty of cis white people who consider themselves progressive who are bigots too and the Democratic party has numerous failings when it comes to its track record on tolerance while at the same time taking certain demographics for granted. So yes, there is a portion of the democratic party that is ideologically aligned with right wing bigots on certain issues.

Anyway, you're weirdly defensive here.
lol you really are incapable with dealing with the words people actually say

thats wildly unproductive
 
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seat

Banned
Mar 14, 2018
756
I hate Rogan but this purity test bullshit is so transparent now that Sanders is doing well in the polls. Why not condemn all Democrats that go on Fox News? Why not attack Warren for accepting the NYT endorsement? Both of those organizations are inarguably more destructive than some entertainment podcast. The cognitive dissonance in this thread is astounding.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,848
It's Bernie's voters that we should be concerned about.



whats interesting is this basically says what was already known about Yang and Bernie. It's not about the policy. It's about the person. Bernie and Yang are unlikely to have any effect down ballot unless Bernie and Yang supporters see congressmen and congresswomen bend the knee to their preferred candidate which isn't ideal when going a 50 state solution. Though maybe Bernie's comments about Mississippi white Republicans not being racist is a signal that he'll allow state control over restrictions and Dems can lean into racist conditional policies so long as they pass his progressive legislation much like he's willing to be conditional on gun legislation. Vermont guns are not the same as Chicago guns and all that.
 
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Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,225
And another goddamn thing.

Even John racist-ass McCain had the testicular fortitude to tell one of his own potential constituents to her face to shut up and sit down in regards to calling Obama a Muslim.

John-fucking-McCain.

He is the standard y'all are insisting Democrats cannot and should not live up to.

It is clown shoes for real.

The bigoted woman referred to Obama as an Arab (not a Muslim, just to correct you there), and McCain responded with "no ma'am, he's a decent family man."



Arabs and Middle Easterners aren't decent people to him.

"Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran!"
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,186
Chile
Sanders' core supporters not showing up isn't where he did real damage to Clinton in the 2016 election. Him running around the rust belt railing against NAFTA and TPP as the Democratic establishment sending jobs overseas for corporate gains was the real blow. Come the election there was massive drop in white working class support for the Dem party in the rust belt, and union voting block powers are weaker than they've ever been.

That damage will take literally decades for the Dem party to come back from and is likely one of the main reasons why Ohio really isn't even close to a swing state anymore.

So it's the voter's (and Bernie's) fault that the Democratic party has policies that people don't want?
 

CrazyDude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,023
I hate Rogan but this purity test bullshit is so transparent now that Sanders is doing well in the polls. Why not condemn all Democrats that go on Fox News? Why not attack Warren for accepting the NYT endorsement? Both of those organizations are inarguably more destructive than some entertainment podcast. The cognitive dissonance in this thread is astounding.
Bernie supporters complaining about purity tests, lol.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,885
I'm not disagreeing with you. I personally will vote for whoever the Dem nom is. But, logically, if you believe these numbers to be true. And you believe a large percentage of Sanders supporters will not vote for the Dem nom if it isn't Sanders, the left will lose the election again to Trump. So, if all above is true, you should hope Sanders wins. Because that's the only chance the left has according to this poll (and 2016).

Or you can hope enough of the 47% in this poll begrudgingly vote for the Democratic candidate to win the election. I don't have faith that will happen.

If you're extorting people to agree with your position, you aren't an ally, and I doubt he would be any better than Trump when shit gets hard while in office.
 

Deleted member 8644

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
975
And another goddamn thing.

Even John racist-ass McCain had the testicular fortitude to tell one of his own potential constituents to her face to shut up and sit down in regards to calling Obama a Muslim.

John-fucking-McCain.

He is the standard y'all are insisting Democrats cannot and should not live up to.

It is clown shoes for real.
What are you talking about? How does this have anything to do with what is being discussed?

Also a lot of Sanders supporters have criticized this move, even in this thread, I would appreciate less generalization in lumping everyone together like they're some Rogan lover
 

Deleted member 11046

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
942
Then you're not paying attention. Almost half of Sanders' supporters are already saying they either will flatly not vote for the Dem nominee if it's not him, or that it will depend upon who it is, and we haven't even hit February yet. That's not a normal group of supporters- that's almost cult-ish. You think that's going to get better between now and April?



Last week it was a handshake. This week it's Joe Rogan. Next week it will be something else. It all feeds the machine. The two people benefiting the most from it: Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump. There's really no arguing it.

You (and others) implying that this is about some altruistic stand against racism and transphobia is the real red herring. That's what it should be about. But that's not what I'm seeing. I'm seeing the same thing I saw in 2016: people jumping into trenches to either attack or defend a candidate damn near to the exclusion of everything else. And, most troubling- the candidates themselves are playing into it...again. Just like 2016.
Co-signed. The same behaviors are repeating, as if no one learned the last time we all played this game.
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
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Sep 20, 2019
1,295
Then you're not paying attention. Almost half of Sanders' supporters are already saying they either will flatly not vote for the Dem nominee if it's not him, or that it will depend upon who it is, and we haven't even hit February yet. That's not a normal group of supporters- that's almost cult-ish. You think that's going to get better between now and April?
Yes and thats because Sanders attracts people who aren't dem voters whether they be people further to the left who have been burned by moderates too many times or people who usually don't vote. Like it still sucks that this is the case but its not a case of the democratic party being broken from within or anything, most of these people wouldn't have voted dem if he hadn't made them decide otherwise.
Last week it was a handshake. This week it's Joe Rogan. Next week it will be something else. It all feeds the machine. The two people benefiting the most from it: Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump. There's really no arguing it.

You (and others) implying that this is about some altruistic stand against racism and transphobia is the real red herring. That's what it should be about. But that's not what I'm seeing. I'm seeing the same thing I saw in 2016: people jumping into trenches to either attack or defend a candidate damn near to the exclusion of everything else. And, most troubling- the candidates themselves are playing into it...again. Just like 2016.
If its just about people "jumping into the trenches" why am I, someone who hopes Bernie wins, in here criticising him? Don't get me wrong, he has supporters in here who don't get why its not okay but that is less because its a cult or something, they just don't care about marginalised groups when anyone they like does something bad. This is also why Rogan himself is getting defended in here and not just Bernie.
Also that wasn't what lost the last election. Hillary actively avoiding certain states and expecting others such as Bernie to do the campaigning there for her plus the fact that she and her husband are detestable human beings is what lost her the last election.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,354
Gordita Beach
User Banned (3 Weeks): Inflammatory Accusations, Hostility, and Concern Trolling
Lol.

So, just so we're clear, what's the meaning of "centrist" here? Anyone not in the tank for Sanders and someone who's critical of Sanders snuggling up to racist transphobes? Or is it something else?
I'm talking about you.

trans People have every right to be annoyed by this, centrists using this to push their agenda under the guise of being an ally should fuck off
 
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