WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,953
Canada
When director Sam Raimi's Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness arrives in theaters on May 5, audiences will meet America Chavez, the Marvel comic book character brought to life by young actor Xochitl Gomez. Ahead of its release, the fan-favorite hero's addition has already received praise, with her inclusion seen as a win for representation, as she is the rare Latina superhero in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. The film will also acknowledge the character is gay, as she is in the comics, according to sources.

For comic book writer Joe Casey, seeing Chavez soar to new heights is bittersweet. Casey is proud of his work on America Chavez and what she represents. Yet, like many comic book writers before him, Casey feels a tinge of regret watching his creation take off without being meaningfully compensated for it. Casey has not received payment for America Chavez, outside the page rates he got when working for Marvel as a writer, when he and artist Nick Dragotta introduced the character in 2011. (Casey rejected what he describes as a "pittance" of an offer ahead of her Multiverse of Madness appearance.)
Now, as Casey speaks out for the first time about his compensation, he is cautious not to sound aggrieved. The writer says he hopes going public will help other creators receive better terms when their work is turned into films, streaming series and action figures.
"The fact is Marvel owns America Chavez. That's not in dispute on any level, but there are still systemic flaws in the way that creators are neither respected nor rewarded," Casey tells The Hollywood Reporter.

Marvel publishing declined to comment, noting it does not speak out on individual creator agreements. During his time at Marvel, Casey never signed any paperwork regarding the character, though he understood Marvel owned anything he created there.
Several years ago, when Casey learned Marvel intended to include America Chavez in the Doctor Strange sequel, he contacted the publisher to request paperwork that would also cover her previous appearances in animated TV episodes and video games.

Marvel publishing sent over a special character agreement for him to sign that included a cash offering. Casey ultimately declined to sign the special character agreement, and his lawyers expressed his dissatisfaction with the offer. Though Casey declined to say how much Marvel offered, the sums for other creator agreements is said to be in the $5,000 range, though a source on the Marvel side disputes that figure, saying they are generally higher. Marvel is not legally obligated to pay creators when their work is adapted, however it is customary for them to invite creators to movie premieres and give them cash compensation for appearances.

To date, Casey has not received a counter offer, though the Marvel source notes that conversations are ongoing. The writer, however, feels the company is stonewalling him. He also is frustrated that there was no transparency as to how Marvel arrived at the offer number.

"Marvel has paid me nothing for America Chavez, not only for appearing in the Doctor Strange sequel, but in numerous animated TV episodes, for the numerous action figures they've made of her, for video games she's appeared in," says Casey. "They seem to be fine with that."
www.hollywoodreporter.com

America Chavez Co-Creator Declines Marvel’s “Insult of an Offer” for ‘Doctor Strange 2’

Writer Joe Casey, who says he was offered a "pittance" ahead of his character's big-screen debut, is speaking out in hopes it could help other creators: "There are still systemic flaws in the way that creators are neither respected nor rewarded."
 

Kard8p3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,408
That's fucking rough and I definitely think creators should be better compensated. I'm also now curious, since Marvel owns the characters completely are creators' insights on their characters appearing in films ever listened to, or does Marvel do their own thing?
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
42,904
Greater Vancouver
It's no secret how creators are given jack fucking shit for the characters and stories that go on to make billions via these movies. It's gross as fuck.

This isn't your outsourced idea factory, it's the people you owe everything to. Acouple dozen Stan Lee cameos is not "respecting the material"
 

Loxley

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,207
Shit like this goes all the way back to Seigel, Schuster, and Superman. For decades they didn't see a dime from the character they created despite DC raking in countless millions from the various movies, serials and merchandise they'd slapped his face on.

Siegel and Schuster would've died in near poverty if - when both men were in their freaking 60s - Neil Adams hadn't gone to bat for them and finally got DC to provide them with a pension and healthcare until they both eventually passed away. He also got DC to officially credit them as the creators of Superman in the comics and movies from that point on.

It's a shame more of the writers and artists who invent these characters for Marvel and DC don't get special name recognition in the credits of these movies and TV shows. At most it's just the general "Based on characters from Marvel/DC Comics".
 

Mugenhunt

Member
Oct 17, 2019
506
Yeah. DC traditionally has been a bit better about film royalties for creators, but even then only in comparison to Marvel. That these multi-million dollar blockbuster films make tons of money, and the original comic creators who made the stories and characters those films adapt get next to nothing is depressing.
 

BWoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,211
Yeah Disney's really strapped for cash....

For fuck sake, give creators like $100K at least for characters they made becoming big time movie heroes.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
58,392
This is by far the fucking worst thing about Marvel. All the movies, shows, video games, etc. generate hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars but the actual people who created and crafted these characters and concepts don't get shit.
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
I get why they're not giving the creators anything -- I can't think of any other structure where it would work like the way creators hope it would. Especially since Marvel wasn't always bankrolled by Disney. You'd be giving the creators individual rights, and legally who knows what that means?

Could a character's creator stop a movie or other content from going forward? Could they stop rights sales to other companies (like Marvel properties to Fox & Sony)? Merch sales?

That said, I think it would be a nice thing to do to set up some royalties agreement with existing writers if nothing else. Or just send a nice check as a "thank-you," even without a long-term payment agreement.
 

MadLaughter

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,939
I wonder if this will come to a head with a lot of the (relatively) more recent x-men characters when they reach the MCU
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,138
That's why it's important to keep your best ideas to yourself until you can get enough acclaim with your other stuff to make higher compensation demands.

Whatever you create for a company while employed with that company is the property of that company.

Also helps to have a union of some sort, like the writer's union.
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,777
It amazes me when creators make new characters for Marvel and/or DC, especially if they're not direct legacy heroes

Mark Millar been writing comics directly for Hollywood adaptations for like two decades.


Why create anything "new" for Marvel when you know they'll own it?
 

Kinketsu

Member
Nov 17, 2017
2,047
I mean, you know what you are doing with Marvel, it kind of makes me scratch my head when people give off about it. Everyone should watch the recent Cartoonist Kayfabe episodes going over Marc Wolfman in court about Blade.
 
Oct 30, 2017
999
I wonder if Shavley gets anything for Mr. Knight lately.

He definitely hadn't in January.
FJZFvBmXoAId90x
 

Tathanen

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,560
I mean... are these artists not being paid for their work when they first create it? If you're literally going to be a creator for hire, what do you expect?

"We will pay you to create characters and stories for us."

"Okay."

?????

When you create work for some place like marvel you have to acknowledge that much of the notoriety your work achieves is on the back of that brand in the first place. You can do great, elevating work but you can't discount the immense value of what came before you there when calculating the worth of what you put together, and the reason why it has an audience.

I empathize to a point because I'm a human being, sure, but you're working a job. I think the argument is different for foundational characters like Superman that are literally the reason the brand achieved any notoriety in the first place, but characters created in the more modern era on top of that brand can hardly make a similar claim.
 
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Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
The workaround is to feature creators in cameos and pay them a salary to be an extra/small role.
Some of them have done this, others have not.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,513
Pennsylvania
Shit like this goes all the way back to Seigel, Schuster, and Superman. For decades they didn't see a dime from the character they created despite DC raking in countless millions from the various movies, serials and merchandise they'd slapped his face on.

Siegel and Schuster would've died in near poverty if - when both men were in their freaking 60s - Neil Adams hadn't gone to bat for them and finally got DC to provide them with a pension and healthcare until they both eventually passed away. He also got DC to officially credit them as the creators of Superman in the comics and movies from that point on.

It's a shame more of the writers and artists who invent these characters for Marvel and DC don't get special name recognition in the credits of these movies and TV shows. At most it's just the general "Based on characters from Marvel/DC Comics".
Bill Finger too, the one who did like 98% of everything about Batman we still know today
 

mattiewheels

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,158
Makes you wonder what those contracts look like today. Like how far are they from building movie money into them as standard.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,988
Yeah Disney's really strapped for cash....

For fuck sake, give creators like $100K at least for characters they made becoming big time movie heroes.
$100k? lmao that's cute

These movies would be too cost prohibitive if the creators were compensated like how independent creators have hit the jackpot from time time.

DON'T WORK FOR MARVEL OR DC, PERIOD.
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
33,639
Chicago
Marvel has never been shy about shortchanging the artists responsible for their comics, and unfortunately, this is yet another example.

When Chavez becomes a household name, they'll have no problem reaping the financial rewards and giving Casey zip.
 

JiyuuTenshi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
913
To be honest, I don't really get the problem here. If you're employed by a company and are paid for the work you do, the company owns whatever you create while they pay you.

It's not like I get royalties for any of the software I write based on how much it gets sold to customers. Why should it be any different for comic books made for hire?

Maybe we should change this whole system fundamentally, but this is pretty much the reality in every industry, isn't it?
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,740
It's so shitty. Just in rounding up the decimal point in their marketing budget they would have enough money to compensate creators well.

Doing so is justifiable. You want the people who made the things you're putting on the screen to be enthusiastic about its inclusion. They're supplying the fuel for your gas-guzzling billion dollar franchise - you're drawing on characters that appeared in comics a decade ago. Marvel Studios should want to encourage creativity in this space, and not encourage creators to hold back their best ideas for the work they fully own.
 

Qvoth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,619
Somewhat off topic but how's the contract situation in the Japanese manga scene for mangakas?
Does Oda own OP or Shueisha?
Afaik Oda is one of the richest man in Japan no?
 

JiyuuTenshi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
913
Somewhat off topic but how's the contract situation in the Japanese manga scene for mangakas?
Does Oda own OP or Shueisha?
Afaik Oda is one of the richest man in Japan no?
Afaik mangakas are not employed by the publishers, they only get paid by delivered page or something like that.
 

LauraLaMer

Banned
Dec 5, 2021
1,170
Somewhat off topic but how's the contract situation in the Japanese manga scene for mangakas?
Does Oda own OP or Shueisha?
Afaik Oda is one of the richest man in Japan no?

Manga creators are better compensated and can take their toy with them and leave if they feel like it (Hiroyuki Takei with Shaman King and Masami Kurumada with Saint Seiya both left Shueisha alongside their creations), but Shueisha still gets the most money from the manga they publish.
 

fallengorn

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,064
New York City
Unfortunately, nothing's really going to change unless there's a dearth of creators willing to work for the big two or people start unionizing. There's really no reason for Marvel (or DC) to change their contracts currently.
 

uuddrlrl

Member
May 30, 2021
876
Mangakas are also usually the sole author/creator of their mangas. American comics' characters have so many different authors and illustrators, I bet finding a fair way to compensate them all is hard.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,152
To be honest, I don't really get the problem here. If you're employed by a company and are paid for the work you do, the company owns whatever you create while they pay you.

It's not like I get royalties for any of the software I write based on how much it gets sold to customers. Why should it be any different for comic books made for hire?

Maybe we should change this whole system fundamentally, but this is pretty much the reality in every industry, isn't it?
Yeah. I'm a graphic designer and that's kind of my thought. If a logo or design I do for a company becomes a cornerstone and makes them a ton I don't really get any more from it. I mean, that's legitimately what I want to happen with my designs. It's the reality of the terms.

But hopefully going forward the reality that the things these creators do could make the company millions and be useful down the road should help them negotiate higher wages / compensation. But that depends on whether someone's willing to do the work for less or not.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,631
This issue becomes really complex when you try to distinguish who was the first person to "create" a character vs who established that character for famous stories.

If the MCU goes straight to adapting the Krakoa era-who created Professor X? Because Hickman's Professor X is a very different character than the one created 60 years ago.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,673
To be honest, I don't really get the problem here. If you're employed by a company and are paid for the work you do, the company owns whatever you create while they pay you.

It's not like I get royalties for any of the software I write based on how much it gets sold to customers. Why should it be any different for comic books made for hire?

Maybe we should change this whole system fundamentally, but this is pretty much the reality in every industry, isn't it?

If creators didn't create new characters and only wrote older ones, Marvel would have a far more limited cave from which to mine. Marvel doesn't pay them to create new characters, they usually pay them to write stories about existing characters, and within them these creators creat new ones. So Marvel owes them (from an ethical standpoint) far more than they paid them to write the initial story.

Royalties are a sign of good faith and a recognition that without the creators, they'd have nothing.

I recall Jim Starlin saying DC gave him more from some no name character he wrote appearing in one of the Snyder movies than Marvel gave him for Thanos, Drax, and Gamora combined across all of the MCU. It just reflects badly on how Marvel treats its creators.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
19,616
To be honest, I don't really get the problem here. If you're employed by a company and are paid for the work you do, the company owns whatever you create while they pay you.

It's not like I get royalties for any of the software I write based on how much it gets sold to customers. Why should it be any different for comic books made for hire?

Maybe we should change this whole system fundamentally, but this is pretty much the reality in every industry, isn't it?

It being reality doesn't make it good. I'd rather workers get paid more for their work than it going to the corporation itself.
 

DanGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,868
Meanwhile, Hollywood kept giving Stan Lee cameos even in projects where he didn't create any of the main characters.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,988
Yeah. I'm a graphic designer and that's kind of my thought. If a logo or design I do for a company becomes a cornerstone and makes them a ton I don't really get any more from it. I mean, that's legitimately what I want to happen with my designs. It's the reality of the terms.

But hopefully going forward the reality that the things these creators do could make the company millions and be useful down the road should help them negotiate higher wages / compensation. But that depends on whether someone's willing to do the work for less or not.
What Marvel and DC are doing is fully legal, and in a lot of creative fields that would be the end of it.

But Marvel and DC spend a whole lot of time bullshitting about equality through their characters. How can they be empowering employees when they're stripping them of rights every time they sign a paycheck?

An independent creator with a fair amount of research can hang onto their success and all the rights to their work. Self-publishing across all media is easier than ever.

People keep posting that video with Stan Lee shitting on Todd Mcfarlane but Mcfarlane can pay himself handsomely while Stan had to fucking sue Marvel.
 

RedStep

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,872
It's a tough one (for us laypeople). There are the creators, there are the people that piggybacked on that and gave us iconic runs (ie Punisher Max for me), producers, etc that can cascade down the line for 50+ years so I get how it's tricky…

…but Marvel also has absolute Fuck You Money so I feel like if they erred on the side of generosity nobody would lose. I understand that my work belongs to my company but I'm not in the arts so I know it's different. Hopefully they work it out and at the very least provide motivation for the people that will be writing comic stories today for MCU holo-films in 20 years.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
58,392
This issue becomes really complex when you try to distinguish who was the first person to "create" a character vs who established that character for famous stories.

If the MCU goes straight to adapting the Krakoa era-who created Professor X? Because Hickman's Professor X is a very different character than the one created 60 years ago.

In the case of America Chavez, you could make a good argument that Kieron Gillen and Jaime McKelvie did more to establish who she is than Joe Casey and Nick Dragotta. (This is without getting into the fact that America Chavez isn't even the first Miss America.)

That being said, I am in favor of creators being fairly compensated. Particularly with companies as big as Disney/Marvel involved. So in the case of America Chavez, I would support Casey, Dragotta, Gillen, and McKelvie being fairly compensated.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,933
It amazes me when creators make new characters for Marvel and/or DC, especially if they're not direct legacy heroes

Mark Millar been writing comics directly for Hollywood adaptations for like two decades.


Why create anything "new" for Marvel when you know they'll own it?

Creating something outside the Marvel/DC space is probably not going to pay off, like at all. Even runs backed by those companies can fail but you at least draw a salary for the work you put in. If you go for a smaller publication or publish independently, you could have made the next Minecraft, sure. But you're far more likely to end up in debt
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,631
In the case of America Chavez, you could make a good argument that Kieron Gillen and Jaime McKelvie did more to establish who she is than Joe Casey and Nick Dragotta. (This is without getting into the fact that America Chavez isn't even the first Miss America.)

That being said, I am in favor of creators being fairly compensated. Particularly with companies as big as Disney/Marvel involved. So in the case of America Chavez, I would support Casey, Dragotta, Gillen, and McKelvie being fairly compensated.
Exactly. When I think of America I think of Gillen's Young Avengers.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,988
Creating something outside the Marvel/DC space is probably not going to pay off, like at all. Even runs backed by those companies can fail but you at least draw a salary for the work you put in. If you go for a smaller publication or publish independently, you could have made the next Minecraft, sure. But you're far more likely to end up in debt
I'm not saying it happens all the time but phenomenons ranging from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to The Walking Dead do exist.

They are BILLION dollar properties, and the creators get paid whether or not they sell.

Forget the money for a moment. You could also self-publish for something as simple as self-respect too.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,933
I'm not saying it happens all the time but phenomenons ranging from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to The Walking Dead do exist.

They are BILLION dollar properties, and the creators get paid whether or not they sell.

Forget the money for a moment. You could also self-publish for something as simple as self-respect too.

Self-respect doesn't feed your kids. And anomalies are not how people make decisions about their livelihoods
 

Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,103
I'm not saying it happens all the time but phenomenons ranging from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to The Walking Dead do exist.

They are BILLION dollar properties, and the creators get paid whether or not they sell.

Forget the money for a moment. You could also self-publish for something as simple as self-respect too.
That barely happens, and when it happens it's usually writers/artists that already made their name on Marvel/DC.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,988
Self-respect doesn't feed your kids. And anomalies are not how people make decisions about their livelihoods
All this means is that what Marvel and DC are doing is extra scummy, taking people trying to get by for all they are worth.

And by no means should anyone do something just for the money. It's neat when self-fulfillment and success intersect though.
 

hodayathink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,148
It's work for hire and you knew that coming into the work. And now you're mad about the effects of it being work for hire. Like, I get it, but really, I don't. If you don't like the terms, don't work for Marvel or DC. It's been long enough that people should know this.

And has been said earlier, you also start getting into who you should pay/credit when adapting certain stories. Like, for Love and Thunder, of course you're gonna give money to the creators of Thor and Valkyrie and etc., but what about Jane? Do you to the original creator? Do you give it to Aaron for making the Jane Thor run that the movie looks like it's taking from? It's not as simple as people like to make it out to be. (Unless your answer is just pay everyone, which then gets into what's fair to pay everyone).
 

Crashman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,749
Creators should be properly compensated, and hopefully Casey receives that. That being said, I feel America Chavez is quite a different character between her first appearance in Vengeance and later depictions. As noted here, Kieron Gillen and Jaime McKelvie are probably more influential to her character as it will be shown in Strange 2, though I may be wrong in some regards here, as it's been a while since I've read Vengeance.