“Developers have been sitting in meetings for the past year desperately trying to get Series S launch requirements dropped”

[OCD Guy]

So recently Ian Maclure (VFX artist at Bossa Games) replied to a tweet by Jeff Gerstmann commenting on whether Series S was holding back next gen.

There are a lot of developers, and people in the industry on these forums. What are your views on this? Is there any truth to how many developers have brought this up in meetings?

Should Microsoft have only released one hardware specification?

Could Microsoft ever just drop the Series S release requirement and leave it in the past like Kinect?

I think the chances of Microsoft allowing developers to release series X only games is extremely slim. Can you imagine the backlash?!

Credit to BlackheartVinyl for finding and posting this tweet in the Microsoft thread


View: https://twitter.com/jeffgerstmann/status/1583017446633484289?s=46&t=-ASFfU0qb5Y_BGv4K5kyog


View: https://twitter.com/fearian/status/1583024250281418753?s=46&t=-ASFfU0qb5Y_BGv4K5kyog


View: https://twitter.com/fearian/status/1583025030539005953?s=46&t=-ASFfU0qb5Y_BGv4K5kyog

 

[Mung]

This is going to get much worse mid to late gen.

 

[Macija]

But, arent low specs PC less advanced than Xbox Series S? I am genuinely asking.

 

[jroc74]

This is gonna be a fun thread.

Regardless, like with PC games that have minimum requirements, the higher they are ppl usually infer what that means about the game.

You can see it starting to happen with recently revealed PC games.

 

[Edward850]

The Series S has been a very smart consumer console for this new gen with it's affordable price, and honestly I haven't been having any issue with it at all, and actually finding it to have plenty of headroom. Even when I made it run 4K120, our most expensive thing was an unoptimized anti-aliasing shader and it still had maybe 30% GPU time left. It's well above what some low end PCs are being used which we have to still account for anyway (well that and the Switch).

Though then again I'm not the one trying to cram 8K textures on to it, so maybe I'm just not getting what the problem is.

 

[Toumari]

That's quite a big claim, however not too surprising given what another developer at Rocksteady said about a week ago referring to the Series S as a potato.

I wonder if any other developer will go out their way to confirm whether it's true.

 

[Jarmel]

Bruh, how many next gen only games have we even gotten? Get back to me when we're actually getting more than like 2 a year.

 

[modiz]

But, arent low specs PC less advanced than Xbox Series S? I am genuinely asking.

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He is specifically talking about how developers are now attempting to transition to current generation only development, which we haven't seen much of so far. We are already seeing with Silent Hill 2 that the minimum requirements are noticeably higher than the Series S's capabiltiies

 

[mattyhochs]

Microsoft cannot drop the Series S anytime soon, even in the next couple of years. It was sold as a next-gen console, regardless of its tech. People were told it would last and bought it on that promise.

I'd love to know the Series S's sales. Can current-gen exclusive developers afford to ignore that audience? Or is it a small fraction of the X?

 

[Ombala]

But, arent low specs PC less advanced than Xbox Series S? I am genuinely asking.

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These games prob also runs horrible on low PC specs, people demand more from a console.

I mean we can just start too see games that are 60fps on Series X and PS5 be 30 on Series S and start too see sub 1080p resolutions.
If developers don't feel it worth it too try and optimize a game for Series S.

 

[currytan]

Surprised that they are complaining about it, when this has been an "issue" for a long time within PC space. And it was similar in these last years with having to target base/pro consoles in the past gen, so... I have my doubts.

 

[Aurora]

The biggest issue is the comparative lack of memory compared to the X, right?

 

[NuclearCake]

Series S?

I would be happy if they just dropped the original Xbox One/ One X and PS4/Pro for a start.

 

[Toumari]

I'd love to know the Series S's sales. Can current-gen exclusive developers afford to ignore that audience? Or is it a small fraction of the X?

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I'm pretty certain Series S has outsold the Series X, mainly due to its price point. It's probably close though and varies across countries.

So dropping it would mean dropping around half of the Xbox console audience.

 

[Lyriell]

I mean, yes but no... right? If Cyberpunk can run okay on the S.. then surely 'I am fish' shouldn't have too many problems?

But I'm not a game developer and it's all magic to me. I would just presume we'd hear this from the team working on the next assassins creed or something. S doesn't seem so bad, just down the assets and the resolution? Cut a few corners?

 

[gothi]

The videos Microsoft put out around launch were very clear, to me at least, that to get the most out of the Series S you really need to be taking advantage of SFS (and possibly mesh shaders but their message on SFS was loud and clear).

I'm not sure we've seen any games take advantage of SFS yet have we? And if so, I'd love to hear how it performed behind the scenes in real-world scenarios rather than the MS demo scene (which showed a huge reduction in memory usage).

 

[Bodhi]

Yeah no.

 

[Mikch85]

This guy has a game on Game Pass, so please don't accuse him of any bias on this one.

 

[Raigor]

That's quite a big claim, however not too surprising given recent news.

Click to shrink...

Which news? Like Requiem running just as better as XSX and PS5 with lower res?

 

[oni-link]

Series S?

I would be happy if they just dropped the original Xbox One/ One X and PS4/Pro for a start.

Click to shrink...

The fact a lot of games are being made to run on PS4/XB1 is why we're able to get 60fps versions on current gen

I know a lot of people disagree but 60fps being the standard for the last 2 years has been more "next gen" to me than an extra nudge towards photorealism will be

If Series S means that we at least get 60fps first party Series X games this gen, then to me, that's a plus

 

[Symphony]

Given that most games appearing on Xbox platforms are also on PC, and how consoles are essentially just PC hardware nowadays, how exactly is supporting the Series S any different than supporting a lower end gaming PC? It's 1 extra SKU to test, they already need to check hundreds of hardware combinations as is. Like, even if the Series S was killed off (which would be a really poor move) games would still be made with people playing on 1060s in mind.

 

[Shirkelton]

I mean, yes but no... right? If Cyberpunk can run okay on the S.. then surely 'I am fish' shouldn't have too many problems?

But I'm not a game developer and it's all magic to me. I would just presume we'd hear this from the team working on the next assassins creed or something. S doesn't seem so bad, just down the assets and the resolution? Cut a few corners?

Click to shrink...

Team working on the next Assassin's Creed (as if there's only one team) probably has almost infinitely more resources than the team working on 'I am fish'.

 

[Heynongman!]

Seems suspect to me. Spending a year in meetings to get requirements dropped vs using that time for something else like, I dunno, making sure more people can play and purchase your game seems like a much better use of dev time.

 

[supercommodore]

Microsoft cannot drop the Series S anytime soon, even in the next couple of years.

Click to shrink...

Microsoft won't drop the Series S at all this generation.

It's here to stay and they won't allow devs that publish on Xbox to release Series X only games. Talk of them doing otherwise is just nonsense to me.

 

[OCD Guy]

I'm wondering whether developers will feel the same if PS5 Pros and more powerful Xbox release.

Surely the same logic will apply to the Series X and PS5?

Infact if I remember rightly were there not similar concerns at the time, the possible fragmentation, the negative effect on additional dev resources etc.

 

[SCUMMbag]

From memory Bossa's games ran horribly on the Series X so I'm sure that the S was a bottleneck for them. They seem quite intensive physics simulations.

From what I know of the Series S (and it's not a lot to be fair), I think most of the compromises which will have to made going forward are regarding fidelity rather than design. I think we could get some real fugly games by the end of the generation which run like shit but I don't think the market will necessarily care or that Microsoft will drop the mandate.

 

[Yahsper]

Series S has been good for consumers and thus, developers should limit their ambitions to what's possible on the Series S.

The whole 'holding back next-gen' is ridiculous. We decide what 'next-gen' is. Too bad this means that developes can't do what's theoretically possible on current premium consoles, but the popularity of the Switch and Series S shows that it's not all about what developers want to accomplish. The audience has to want to follow.

 

[Vexii]

Not a developer.

However I'd be inclined to think that considering the CPU's in these things are identical, why are devs not able to shave down on resolution and some effects and call it a day?

There is a RAM difference of about 6GB though. Is that enough for this to be this big of a thorn in the side of the development process?

 

[Toumari]

Which news? Like Requiem running just as better as XSX and PS5 with lower res?

Click to shrink...

Probably not "news" as it was more of a claim from another developer, however there was a Rocksteady dev saying supporting Series S was proving to be difficult.

I've edited my post to clarify.

 

[JJD]

I'd love to know the Series S's sales. Can current-gen exclusive developers afford to ignore that audience? Or is it a small fraction of the X?

Click to shrink...

The problem is that MS won't allow devs to ignore it. If you want to be on the Xbox ecosystem you have to support the S. That is why those discussions are being held.

 

[Polk]

Bruh, how many next gen only games have we even gotten? Get back to me when we're actually getting more than like 2 a year.

Click to shrink...

You know, games takes years to develop. Having to cater to Series S right now makes games released in 3-5 years will be impacted.

 

[Dan Thunder]

No way MS are dropping/letting developers drop the S requirement this generation, the uproar would be ridiculous.

I get the point about PC releases but one of the big advantages about consoles is supposed to be that they're fixed hardware and you only ever have to develop for one specification and, generally, because of that they're able to punch well above their weight in terms of what they can push out compared to their spec.

Look at the likes of how well RDR2 and TLoU2 run on PS4 at 1080p on 9 year old hardware. Would those games have been able to run at the same level on a similar spec PC?

I don't know how much of an issue it actually is for developers to target a lower-spec console but it's undeniable that it will likely be adding to their workload.

it was similar in these last years with having to target base/pro consoles in the past gen, so... I have my doubts.

Click to shrink...

I'd say the difference there is that in the last-gen the base model was always the target to aim for as it was the only device available for years and the pro models just let them beef up certain parts. This generation though devs have a much more powerful machine available from the off but are having to work around much less powerful hardware.

 

[Nekyrrev]

S doesn't seem so bad, just down the assets and the resolution? Cut a few corners?

Click to shrink...

I think that's exactly what some devs are complaining about. They don't want to cut a few more corners for the series S and having it as a baseline.
Plus it's not as simple as "down the assets and resolution", optimisation for a specific hardware is a lot of work if you want your game to look clean and perform steadily on that support.
It's more work for a worst looking result and I understand why some devs could do without that.

 

[Vic20]

I'm wondering whether developers will feel the same if PS5 Pros and more powerful Xbox release.

Surely the same logic will apply to the Series X and PS5?

Click to shrink...

Not really

 

[fiendcode]

I could possibly see Series S phased out (and Series X maintained longer) at some point late cycle, but I wouldn't expect it until the next transition probably. I think Series S is here to stay for the active lifecycle current gen.

And really the baseline might get even lower for most devs once Drake happens.

 

[Bardeh]

All I can say is I hope those meetings aren't successful because I bought a Series S as a next-gen console as promised, have been extremely happy with it, and would not like to see it dropped.

 

[Yorker14]

But, arent low specs PC less advanced than Xbox Series S? I am genuinely asking.

Click to shrink...

Yes, but will that still be the case towards the end of this gen (2026-27ish)? I think that's the issue. Right now it's manageable as Series S is probably above the lower spec PCs those games are already targeting, but GPUs will go through 2 or 3 more generations before the end of this console generation, so "low spec" by 2026-27 will be an RTX 3000 series card.

 

[AndyVirus]

Worst case scenario I guess is some cloud-only games on Series S in a few years?

 

[Jarmel]

You know, games takes years to develop. Having to cater to Series S right now makes games released in 3-5 years will be impacted.

Click to shrink...

In 3-5 years there are going to be Pro versions of both these consoles and a similar thing is going to happen as to last gen where games essentially target the Pro versions anyway.

 

[viral]

I'm not saying he's wrong, but is a VFX artist from an indie studio really reliable when it comes to this? Feels like this thread was just made after seeing a random tweet, there's no other source.

 

[AImalexia]

can we pwease drop half your install base? 😿

sounds like something that's happening a lot for sure!

 

[crazillo]

I am not sure if one tweet is enough to start a conversation like this, TBH.

There's such a wide variety of specs a game has to hit on PC. On consoles, we're still seeing very few next-gen only projects, and still see awesome-looking next gen games such as Horizon, God of War or Forza Horizon 5 although they have PS4/One versions. We also have seen a lot of "impossible" ports to the much lower-powered Switch. Devs will want to get their multi-plat games on the Switch successor and I don't expect it to be as capable as Series S.

I think Series S might become an issue down the road in 2026+, but that's been the case for base Xbox One and PS4 versions as well. For the time being, Series S was a pretty genius move, because it allows next-gen gaming at an affordable price and also broke a barrier to new markets like Japan where the product fits consumer tastes better. I don't see anything wrong with a 1080p next-gen console. It's undeniable that the console creates more work for developers though.

 

[NuclearCake]

The fact a lot of games are being made to run on PS4/XB1 is why we're able to get 60fps versions on current gen

I know a lot of people disagree but 60fps being the standard for the last 2 years has been more "next gen" to me than an extra nudge towards photorealism will be

If Series S means that we at least get 60fps first party Series X games this gen, then to me, that's a plus

Click to shrink...

They can still target 60FPS and be next-gen only. I mean just look at Ratchet and Clank. It still looks better than pretty much anything out there and it is 60fps.

Having to juggle so many versions during development must be painful and having to design around slow mechanical drives and an ancient underpowered CPU from 2011 is even worse. Make no mistake 60FPS is completely possible with next-gen only. It just feels like higher framerates are a thing now because of cross-gen but these two things are unrelated. Because devs can still choose 60fps while still developing exclusively for next-gen consoles.

 

[Plinkerton]

The fact a lot of games are being made to run on PS4/XB1 is why we're able to get 60fps versions on current gen

I know a lot of people disagree but 60fps being the standard for the last 2 years has been more "next gen" to me than an extra nudge towards photorealism will be

If Series S means that we at least get 60fps first party Series X games this gen, then to me, that's a plus

Click to shrink...

Honestly I kinda feel the same. If Series S forces developers to focus less on cutting-edge visuals and more on games that look "good enough" but perform better on the higher-end systems, then I don't really have a problem with that.

 

[oni-link]

I think that's exactly what some devs are complaining about. They don't want to cut a few more corners for the series S and having it as a baseline.
Plus it's not as simple as "down the assets and resolution", optimisation for a specific hardware is a lot of work if you want your game to look clean and perform steadily on that support.
It's more work for a worst looking result and I understand why some devs could do without that.

Click to shrink...

I'd love to know the sales split between S and X

If it's even 40% S and 60% X that's still a weird thing for devs to ask for

"Please let us make a game we can only sell to 60% of your install base"

Is optimising an S version really so costly that it's worth throwing away a solid percentage of sales for?

 

[OCD Guy]

I'm not saying he's wrong, but is a VFX artist from an indie studio really reliable when it comes to this? Feels like this thread was just made after seeing a random tweet, there's no other source.

Click to shrink...

Other developers have commented on Series S in the past.

Remedy games, and most recently someone from rocksteady (tweet has since been deleted).

 

[raketenrolf]

All that would happen is that some highly demanding games will look like shit on Series S but most people probably already expected that going further into the gen so..

 

[Aurora]

I could possibly see Series S phased out (and Series X maintained longer) at some point late cycle, but I wouldn't expect it until the next transition probably. I think Series S is here to stay for the active lifecycle current gen.

And really the baseline might get even lower for most devs once Drake happens.

Click to shrink...

 

[YozoraXV]

If these devs are struggling I'm sure MS would be willing to educate them on how to scale their games, as most devs have been doing a pretty good job of supporting the XSS.

 

[Yorker14]

I could possibly see Series S phased out (and Series X maintained longer) at some point late cycle, but I wouldn't expect it until the next transition probably. I think Series S is here to stay for the active lifecycle current gen.

Click to shrink...

I don't know. I think that makes sense but then we realistically should have seen the same thing with Xbox One X vs base Xbox One/One S.

The One X is more powerful in some regards than the Series S, but with a weaker CPU and without an SSD. There are plenty of "next gen" games that could launch on One X as well that wouldn't have to sacrifice all that much if that was considered the baseline. But at the moment the situation is that the baseline is the base Xbox One/One S, the weaker of the two major consoles released 9 years ago rather than a console that launched as the most powerful in the world only 5 years ago.