Deleted member 1849

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Yikes, just ...yikes. How on earth would ANYONE learn to code in this kind of environment? If you have to pay an enterprise fee to get that level of access to the hardware surely only people who already know how to code would be able to continue.
It would essentially kill off all hobbyist development. Indie gaming as we know it would not exist, the vast majority of all professional programmers would not exist (even those who aren't part of the gaming industry). People like me who learnt to program growing up so I could learn to make games. "Yeah, you need an enterprise fee for that, too bad kiddo".

It's mindbogglingly idiotic to support such an idea.
 

Linde

Banned
Sep 2, 2018
3,983
How can you be so passionate about software yet be so ignorant about proper release practices
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
I think it's hilarious that he's talking about freedom when his own software he's developed to work with this game costs money.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,986
I think it's hilarious that he's talking about freedom when his own software he's developed to work with this game costs money.
Freedom in terms increasing what you can do with the hardware you own is not the same as something being "free" to download. Although in the case of this game, it's not really anything.

Even FOSS software can sometimes cost money (although this is somewhat uncommon).
 
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Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
"Free" is a complicated topic with open source software. (of course this game isn't free or open source lol)

Maybe it got deleted or something cuz I could've sworn that on the Mastodon thread he was strawmaning people by claiming that people who wanted some Ruby tool he made to be open source just don't want to pay for software.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
The worst part is, if his goal really was to make people discover programming, there's legit ways to do it.

The 3DS has a small code editor game where you can program small things without potentially affecting the system. And I believe one for Switch is coming out soon.

I think it's called fuze.

How much even was this game? People can get a raspberry pi for like $10-$30 for coding.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,627
Well, I guess sneaking unwanted software into people's devices is no longer a bad thing, judging by some of the posts here!


Hope he never gets to publish on the Switch again. This isn't cool at all.
 

Hailinel

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Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Well, I guess sneaking unwanted software into people's devices is no longer a bad thing, judging by some of the posts here!


Hope he never gets to publish on the Switch again. This isn't cool at all.
He's opened the door to getting blacklisted by Nintendo and the other console platforms in addition to potentially having action brought against him by Circle.
 

Ganado

▲ Legend ▲
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Oct 25, 2017
2,210
I really REALLY don't get people saying that this would've spelled the doom for Switch with all the piracy coming from this. While I don't agree with what he did, are people really this scared of people pirating games? I mean, wouldn't PC gaming be dead since long?

Well, I guess sneaking unwanted software into people's devices is no longer a bad thing, judging by some of the posts here!

It's part of the package, it's not like he can remotely hack your Switch and make it explode you know. Developers hid these kinds of things in games all the time (though, certified of course). It's kinda like saying fuck Deep Silver for sneaking in unwanted software (TimeSplitters 2) into Homefront The Revolution or Geometry Wars into Project Gotham Racing.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,627
It's part of the package, it's not like he can remotely hack your Switch and make it explode you know. Developers hid these kinds of things in games all the time (though, certified of course). It's kinda like saying fuck Deep Silver for sneaking in unwanted software (TimeSplitters 2) into Homefront The Revolution or Geometry Wars into Project Gotham Racing.
It's not the same thing at all if those were vetted by the platform holder, which they probably were. I'm well aware that he can't do anything to damage the Switch with an interpreter alone. But who's to say he can't add code via patches that could then be run without the user's approval?
It's obvious that this wasn't his intent (or else he would've never told the internet about it) and I'm not 100% in the know about this, by the way, but my initial reaction to sneaking software completely unrelated to what the user wanted is a no-no.
 

Hailinel

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Oct 27, 2017
35,527
I really REALLY don't get people saying that this would've spelled the doom for Switch with all the piracy coming from this. While I don't agree with what he did, are people really this scared of people pirating games? I mean, wouldn't PC gaming be dead since long?



It's part of the package, it's not like he can remotely hack your Switch and make it explode you know. Developers hid these kinds of things in games all the time (though, certified of course). It's kinda like saying fuck Deep Silver for sneaking in unwanted software (TimeSplitters 2) into Homefront The Revolution or Geometry Wars into Project Gotham Racing.
In this case, the dev snuck coding tools (not an old game ROM) into his game without informing his publisher. Certification and publishing requires the game follow specific standards and rules, which the dev flaunted brazenly. Now the publisher is busy with a mess they never asked for or expected because of a lone wolf thinking he could stick it to The Man with an Easter egg made redundant by elementary coding tools readily accessible elsewhere.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,194
It's part of the package, it's not like he can remotely hack your Switch and make it explode you know. Developers hid these kinds of things in games all the time (though, certified of course). It's kinda like saying fuck Deep Silver for sneaking in unwanted software (TimeSplitters 2) into Homefront The Revolution or Geometry Wars into Project Gotham Racing.
As far as everyone else knew, it wasn't. The publisher didn't know either. If he had it certified then none of this would matter for conversation.

Like this isn't the same level of Hey the publisher decided to add a game in this game and they're cool oh my god. This is a dude putting in something behind his publisher's back, announced it to the world, and now his publisher has to deal with it.
 
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pronk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,821
How is it a fake ruby interpreter? Surely its either a ruby interpreter or it isn't? It sounds like it has some functionality so..
 

Hailinel

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Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Whether or not the Ruby interpreter is "fake" (I'm not sure how a functioning interpreter could be considered fake?), it doesn't make the situation any better for him.
 

Vena

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,854
The fact that he did this to an unawares publisher is a real-cherry on top dick move from a self-absorbed asshole.

Whether or not the Ruby interpreter is "fake" (I'm not sure how a functioning interpreter could be considered fake?), it doesn't make the situation any better for him.

It doesn't matter if its fake. It took me all of two minutes to make this thing go into a pseudo-overflow loop within the interpreter itself by feeding it garbage. That's already a critical problem from an unaccounted for piece of code in the game that has access to the file save system.

This dude is a fucking moron for including this. If I were Circle, I'd seek punitive damages and if I were Nintendo, I'd nuke this thing from their CDN and issue refunds and scorch it from the earth.
 

Hailinel

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Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
The fact that he did this to an unawares publisher is a real-cherry on top dick move from a self-absorbed asshole.



It doesn't matter if its fake. It took me all of two minutes to make this thing go into a pseudo-overflow loop within the interpreter itself by feeding it garbage. That's already a critical problem from an unaccounted for piece of code in the game that has access to the file save system.

This dude is a fucking moron for including this. If I were Circle, I'd seek punitive damages and if I were Nintendo, I'd nuke this thing from their CDN and issue refunds and scorch it from the earth.
God damn. Thanks for highlighting how fucked this is.
 

Vena

Community Resettler
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Oct 25, 2017
7,854
God damn. Thanks for highlighting how fucked this is.

He's lucky it was taken down fast and the damage is going to be minimal if any at all, since the only people who actually really noted this as interesting were people with bootrom flawed units to begin with and the number of people downloading it in the few hours it was up was minimal.

But he's 100% getting blacklisted from everything. He lied to his publisher and he lied to the platform holder. This is real royal flush for how to fuck your career for forever.

No publisher will ever trust him, because he's willing to deceive a publisher as shown.
No platform holder will ever trust him, because he ships a fucking bug riddled interpreter in his game, as shown.

I haven't seen such a cavalcade of stupidity in a while.
 
May 9, 2018
3,600
It doesn't matter if its fake. It took me all of two minutes to make this thing go into a pseudo-overflow loop within the interpreter itself by feeding it garbage. That's already a critical problem from an unaccounted for piece of code in the game that has access to the file save system.
What are the hypothetical consequences of that? File system corruption?
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,951
Someone was clearly drinking a bit too much of the Stallman Kool-Aid. That's a pretty efficient way to trash your reputation as a game developer.
 

Vena

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Oct 25, 2017
7,854
What are the hypothetical consequences of that? File system corruption?

Generally circumvents Nintendo's rock-solid kernel, and would allow for a hypothetical escalation down to TruztZone. One of the big things with the top-down attacks on the Switch was that the kernel was basically an iron wall, and anything getting through was using side-channel attacks through nVidia's nvservices to get down to TrustZone compromises.

They finally fixed all of nVidia's stupid spaghetti code in 8.0.0 and closed down the nvservices chain of escalation, but this just invites another possible hole if something can be found to turn a save file into a point of exploitation. There's even a bounty on "save game exploit".

There's a long way from Ruby interpreter to exploited save but its a possibility given its permissions and the fact that its signed by Nintendo's key.

Nintendo has a real good reason to wipe this from their CDN.

This dude is a real fucking dumbass.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,951
What are the hypothetical consequences of that? File system corruption?
If it's a fully functional Ruby interpreter, then you could do literally anything the game is allowed to do (and probably a few things it isn't if you can find some OS bugs). Exactly how bad this can get depends on how many foot-guns the Switch OS leaves lying around.
 

Mejilan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,852
Circle's a good pub.
They've been putting out small, indie gems since at least the DSiWare days, to my recollection.
I've got a decent number of Circle-published DSi, 3DS, Wii U, and Switch titles in my purchase history.
Not sure if they were around for the WiiWare days though.

They don't deserve this.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Generally circumvents Nintendo's rock-solid kernel, and would allow for a hypothetical escalation down to TruztZone. One of the big things with the top-down attacks on the Switch was that the kernel was basically an iron wall, and anything getting through was using side-channel attacks through nVidia's nvservices to get down to TrustZone compromises.

They finally fixed all of nVidia's stupid spaghetti code in 8.0.0 and closed down the nvservices chain of escalation, but this just invites another possible hole if something can be found to turn a save file into a point of exploitation. There's even a bounty on "save game exploit".

There's a long way from Ruby interpreter to exploited save but its a possibility given its permissions and the fact that its signed by Nintendo's key.

Nintendo has a real good reason to wipe this from their CDN.

This dude is a real fucking dumbass.
I wonder if part of the discussions Circle is having with Nintendo is over the logistics of nuking the CDN and refunding.
 

Lord Error

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,703
What a stupid and pointless hill to die on.
Shame. It's actually a decent game.
At least, I enjoyed the browser version enough to clear it twice.
Just to point out: Rajan is not the developer of the original browser game. That was Michael Townsend. Rajan ported / enhanced the game for iOS (and now Switch).
I dunno, from reading their game notes, they both sounded like cool and kind people. I think he just goofed out here not realizing how strict console platform holders are with this kind of stuff. For him, this must be like a totally harmless toy, no different than leaving a C64 basic interpreter accessible from an emulated game, for example.
 

Eolz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,601
FR
I feel really bad for Circle, hopefully Nintendo will be understanding.

What an asshole, and apparently he's still putting the blame on others rather than himself...
 

Mejilan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,852
Just to point out: Rajan is not the developer of the original browser game. That was Michael Townsend. Rajan ported / enhanced the game for iOS (and now Switch).
I dunno, from reading their game notes, they both sounded like cool and kind people. I think he just goofed out here not realizing how strict console platform holders are with this kind of stuff. For him, this must be like a totally harmless toy, no different than leaving a C64 basic interpreter accessible from an emulated game, for example.

Yes, I know Rajan's the moron here, not Townsend. Rajan's spoken up enough about the matter that I don't see this so much as a mistake or goof, just him being intentionally contrarian. Especially if it hurts relations between Circle and Nintendo? Fuck him. It's not just his selfish ass that's on the line.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,494
SciresM (the main developer behind Atmosphere, the CFW for Switch) has shared his thoughts on the matter:

As someone quite involved in this stuff (I am the primary developer for an open source custom firmware project for the Switch): the ruby interpreter the dev included has security vulnerabilities. This is a legitimate (and correct) move on Nintendo's part.

Even if the dude whose job is to crack the Switch's security is telling you that your stuff is too vulnerable... yeah.
 

Vena

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,854
SciresM (the main developer behind Atmosphere, the CFW for Switch) has shared his thoughts on the matter:

Even if the dude whose job is to crack the Switch's security is telling you that your stuff is too vulnerable... yeah.

SciresM and ReSwitched have already found memory corruption vulnerabilities in the interpreter and that's bad, very bad. Its basically the first ever non-webkit userland exploit chain with unknown ramifications.

Raja is a moron. He backported fixes thinking he'd "fixed" his distribution as if that made the inclusion "okay" and yet left a fuckton of bugs in any way.

Who even knows the amount of shit he's going to force other devs/Circle to go through because he's a fuckwit.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
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Just to point out: Rajan is not the developer of the original browser game. That was Michael Townsend. Rajan ported / enhanced the game for iOS (and now Switch).
I dunno, from reading their game notes, they both sounded like cool and kind people. I think he just goofed out here not realizing how strict console platform holders are with this kind of stuff. For him, this must be like a totally harmless toy, no different than leaving a C64 basic interpreter accessible from an emulated game, for example.
Thanks. Updated the main post to refer to him as such
 

Gaardus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,704
My Switch automatically downloaded an update for A Dark Room, but it's still unavailable on the eShop. Any word on what the update does? (I can guess, but...)
 

-shadow-

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
I figure it'll remove that part of the game. Can't imagine they'll just leave it in for those that have it.