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[New York Times]: In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’
- Thread starter Thisman
- Start date
Oh wow, really? REALLY?!
Are those "foreign people" just magical creatures our concepts of race do not apply to? Did you just tell me if you "don't see race" racism just vanishes?!
What are you talking about? Me a UK person would be classified as a foreigner in Denmark....I'm failing to see your point here and I would also be liable to this treatment if I lived in Denmark. All I see is humans to be blunt, I could not give a shit what colour anybody is which is why I refrain from ever using race as way to segregate people.
Also you were quick to point out this was a "wealthier white" decision....you have absolutely zero proof of any of this and throwing around racial terms like that is simply just not going to help anyone.
I mean, america is still melting down so time isn't really helping there.
It's just forced free daycare for people who can't afford it. Something 98% of the population does willingly and pays for. This enables the moms to attend language classes and get a job. It also makes sure the children aren't at a disadvantage compared to Danish children when they start school as they will have learned Danish by then through daycare.
The ghetto zones the government is designating are predominately poor and non-white. "Wealthier white" is exactly the right term for the opposite of those areas.
You can refrain all you want from using race to "segregate people," but the fact of the matter is, reality around you does, and your attitude simply enables the racists.
Opt-in is fine. This isn't Opt-in. And 25 hours seems a lot. There is no flexibility in this law. Its totally racist/classist. Fucking poor people.
It's "just" forced daycare? I hope you are being sarcastic. If this were a choice, I could maybe buy into this crap. But it fucking isn't - These parents get punished if they don't oblige. It should at least be a choice! What about the parents who want to raise their own kids? No matter their financial circumstance. And this goddamn crap about "danish values"... As if to say "your culture lacks values and isn't in line with what we believe in, therefore you can't raise your own child". FUCK THIS SHIT!!
If the state is enforcing education on these areas for children I can only see it benefiting them in the long run then.
So my attitude of only seeing everyone as a human being enables racists to do what exactly? To roam free? I realise the world is torn racially and I don't have my head in the sand about it but everyone quoting its a racial thing is simply not true.
Lastly you skirt over my points of the whole targeting non-whites..tell me where EXACTLY does it state it's targeting non-white people?
I can't be bothered to try to rationalise anymore given this is the internet it's either 100% bad or 100% good.
Yes because forget about your own relegion and culture values let me force mine down your 1 year olds throat.
There are many ways to help immigrants intergrate into society but labeling them a ghetto parents and ghetto children then making Christian values a most seems like ethnocide to me.
They do raise their own kids. It's daycare, not a boarding school. What are you talking about?
And school basically all over the world is FORCED. I was FORCED away from my parents to go to school as well, and they could have gotten in trouble if I didn't go.
"Ghetto" classification is based on these criteria:
The measures only apply to people living in those areas. Who, again are mostly non-white.
That sure is one hell of a way to interpret it. But then again this article is shit.
Sounds like the state knows better than some parents, who would have thought!
I'll say it until it sticks. It's NOT regular daycare. It's forced upon on 1-year olds. This is forced upon a certian demographic of people. It's clearly race-based, as it is enforced upon on majority-muslim areas and it could easily escalate. If "regular" Danes have the choice to wait until their children are six, everyone should have that option. If this doesn't apply to everyone, it's shouldn't apply to anyone! And please don't ignore the other points I was making. Having the right to raise your kids the same way as anyone else, that's what I'm arguing for. Otherwise you create second-class citizens who don't have the same rights as "regular" Danes. And again, FUCK THIS SHIT!!
But is still very relevant when analyzing racial/cultural tensions and immigration. It takes generations for any two peoples to succesfully merge.
Did you know there are quite a few countries with compulsory education? Homeschooling isn't a thing there either. If you don't send your children to school, you can get in serious trouble. There's usually different types of schools, but you can't just refuse all of them because you think you know better than everyone else. And it's not like day-care facilities are boarding schools. You'll still have your children with you most of the time.
Weirdly enough, in these countries very few people think the Earth is 6000 years old, climate change was invented by Al Gore or the best type of sex education is "Nuh-uh, don't do that!"
So what do you think "integration" should be comprised of? We're just talking about learning the customs and the language of your new home here.
I dunno about that.
I know no country that has mandatory education for 1yo.
Compulsory education where they are taught to observe Christian holidays? At 13 months and up?
NOPE.
Fuck the alt-right apologists in this thread.
Kind of baffled how scoffed people are getting at the idea of learning the language of the country you emigrated to. "The GAL of them!!!" Like seriously? Yes, you want to emigrate to a country, you will learn the language. That's a given, that's like number 1. If I'm living in The Netherlands and I need to ask someone on the street where an address is I should expect them to look me in the eye and point me to the right way in Dutch.
The person I quoted spoke more generally about "parents wanting to raise their own kids", as if that was impossible with day-care. Guess what, you actually have to send children somewhere whether you want to or not.
Also, if parents don't speak Danish, what's exactly bad about making sure their kids do?
Except that's not what's happening. The article is severely misleading. But good for you if you made up your mind without checking the facts first, that's really en vogue currently.
My great-grandparents never learned English. Migrated here during the Weimar Republic when Hitler was taking power, spoke only German until they died decades later.
I personally don't think it's a good idea to never assimilate.
I also think it's a much worse idea to have compulsory Christian holiday training for 13 month olds.
Jesus Christ! How does learning about Christmas and Easter make one forget about their own religion and culture?! Like, what the hell? Is Santa Claus really that scary?
No wonder some societies are so closed off if they are this paranoid about learning about other religions and cultures.
In India, many Hindu children go to convent schools because these schools are really good in terms of education. But they are required to sing Christian prayers and learn about Jesus. Which they do. That in no way takes away from their religion and they are still Hindus.
I would think that getting exposed to other viewpoints at an early age is a good way to be more open minded and have a liberal way of thinking.
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Why does it start at 1YO?
A baby that small can barely understand what's happening around them, to remove them from their mother and main source of food/nutrition (how exactly is breastfeeding dealt with here) and ensuring the bond between family and child isn't as close seems to point towards this law attempting to do something other than integration.
It seems to be enforced assimilation.
I understand the arguments for learning the language and customs of the country, but you're not going to learn shit at 1YO. If the 25 hours starts from the age of 4-5, I'd think it was actually a good law and could help with long term integration, but there's something not quite right with the age it starts.
A baby that small can barely understand what's happening around them, to remove them from their mother and main source of food/nutrition (how exactly is breastfeeding dealt with here) and ensuring the bond between family and child isn't as close seems to point towards this law attempting to do something other than integration.
It seems to be enforced assimilation.
I understand the arguments for learning the language and customs of the country, but you're not going to learn shit at 1YO. If the 25 hours starts from the age of 4-5, I'd think it was actually a good law and could help with long term integration, but there's something not quite right with the age it starts.
If it's just daycare why not let the babies stay at home with the parents until proper schooling age...
Lol, the entitlement.
How dare they not serve their generous master! /s
To make sure the baby isnt neglected by its parents who might be living in a bad environment?
And now the prejudice. Just because they are migrants doesn't mean they are bad parents. Just because they are poor doesn't mean they are bad parents.
All children should be raised by the state is what you are saying?
Keep digging.
They are brown though and don't worship the correct God of Abraham so yeah they are bad parents to white supremacists.
Cause it's good for the parents to have a job or better shot at having one. Most times it will be the mother staying home, which will of course lead to a worse pension and dependency on the husband to provide etc, how is that a good thing to you?
Edit: and it's a good thing to get out there and work and pay some taxes imo.
I like the idea of offering free daycare for poor families.
I don't like the idea of forcing people to send their children to daycare.
Especially since it targets majority PoC and minority's.
What is so hard to understand?
The laws that they impose on the population of the so-called ghettos is setting up one set of rules for PoC and one for majority white peoples.
Daycare as an option is perfectly fine. Being mandatory only for specific areas îs prejudicial and discriminatory.
Quite the contrary... a child learns the most from those early ages, even if they can't succinctly express themselves in a way that would satisfy many.
Prosocial behaviour can be taught early on as part of the implicit structure of interaction.
Honestly given the gulf in the range of parental behaviour... I think this should just apply to everyone not just poor migrant families. But at least for the Dutch, happily enough their society overwhelmingly does bring kids to daycare early on.
I can agree with that, should be mandatory for everyone or you get fuck all from the state.
I think this thread shows that we Europeans are clearly not ready to discuss critical race relations issues and are too set in formal, legal equality. Which is weird, considering we're used to a legal system that absolutely forbids prejudice based on nationality and unnecessary barriers based on country of origin. I really hope, for our future, we can overcome this and become more wary.
Parents send children to the country of their origin to attend koran schools, forced marriage etc. because they think their children are getting too much western influences so they must be re-educated?
Compulsory education is normal in Scandinavia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education#Europe
I'll admit that doing it from 1 and up is very early, but I can see the merit in having it from day-care age rather than elementary school. Having a kid join a class at 7 after not having learned the language well enough can be managed, but if it's widespread it will probably lead to worsened learning.
If you think attending daycare in a liberal western democracy is the same thing as being "raised by the state", then I don't know what to tell you.
I thought it would be good for poor people to get free daycare so they have more time to work. Of course forcing will probably not lead to anything good.
No I didn't say that.
If your second comment is aimed at me and you are calling me a racist you can take that shit else where.
Do you understand between a choice to accept government sposored "daycare"and forced "daycare" with Christian indoctrination?
Because those are very, very different things.
Precisely. And I just posted the link to the BBC article that explains this very thing. For those who skipped over this:
- Her institution looks after 86 kids aged between one and five years old and out of all the parents only two mothers don't go to work.
- "Even if they did not go to work they all have their children here," says Anna. "All around us there are no kids at home in the day, they are in a day care centre."
- Childcare institutions are everywhere, so it seems fitting that 98% of pre-school children are part of the day care system.
- And it's no accident that this system helps Stine get back into work. State-supported childcare was expanded rapidly during the 1960s in response to a sharp rise in women joining the labour market, creating the distinctive model that survives today.
-The result now is a country where a child growing up in Denmark is unusual if they don't go to childcare.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-38254474
So basically they are not forcing these immigrant children to do anything different - just do what 98% of Danish children do including day care for one year olds. This was done to allow woman to go to work and become independent.
This will give immigrant women a chance to do more than sit at home, take care of babies and not be dependent on the husband. She could use the time to go out, learn the language, get a job. Help her family. Improve their life. And get out of the 'Ghetto'.
Yes. Babies start learning language and comprehension right from birth and ages one to five is when their brains are like a sponge that absorbs stuff. I would think this would very helpful in learning tough Nordic languages :) My brother is 35 and had a tough time learning Finnish when he was working for Nokia!
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So I'm a public policy professional and this is the kind of stuff I do for a living. The evidence overwhelmingly shows that the first 1000 days of life are absolutely critical to the long term life outcomes of a person. And I don't mean critical as in it's merely important, I mean critical as in for a majority of people, those first 1000 days are determinative as to the life they will eventually lead.
I'm deferring to the Danes in this thread to explain the situation on the ground, but if children are being held back from socialising and learning the national language until kindergarten age, that is absolutely too late. Age 1 is a perfect age for daycare, especially if these children are being denied other avenues to integrate and socialise.
I have concerns about the punitive aspects of failing to comply, but I suspect that was the price needed to make this program politically sellable. The unfortunate reality is that compromise happens a lot in this practice