[New York Times]: In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’

anamika · Jul 3, 2018

hateradio said:
The negative effects it has on the parents and the communities are extremely inappropriate.

What negative effects? The children get free day care and the mothers have more free time on their hands which is always a good thing. Right?

hateradio said:
It also reminds me of this, not that they're necessarily stealing kids away, but, it's just targeted racism ingrained into the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools

Come on now. That's hyperbole. The two situations are not remotely the same.

I was curious about Denmark's day care system:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-38254474

So with three children still all under the age of four, Stine has just started a job working four days a week as a fibre-optics analyst.

In many countries the price of sending three children to daycare would be toe-curlingly expensive, but for Stine and her husband Thomas it's affordable.

This kind of affordable childcare is made possible because the Danish state subsidises it in a big way.

Local authorities are legally required to pay around three-quarters of childcare costs while parents make up the rest.

And it's no accident that this system helps Stine get back into work. State-supported childcare was expanded rapidly during the 1960s in response to a sharp rise in women joining the labour market, creating the distinctive model that survives today.

The result now is a country where a child growing up in Denmark is unusual if they don't go to childcare.

Childcare institutions are everywhere, so it seems fitting that 98% of pre-school children are part of the day care system.

So it seems like
a) pretty much all Danish children go to daycare from ages one onward.
b) This allows for women to enter the work force, earn a salary and become independent
c) This improves quality of life for the family.
d) The family earns and pays taxes to allow for facilities like subsidized day care.

Deleted member 7130 · Jul 3, 2018

Edit: is the article misleading?

Bob The Skull · Jul 3, 2018

gcwy said:
Me neither, an outlier for Europe I think.

It ident.. it's pretty in to people knowing the traditions of the country if you live there though.

Fanatic · Jul 3, 2018

gcwy said:
Me neither, an outlier for Europe I think.

Denmark isn't "that" into Christianity and isn't an outlier. Maybe an outlier in terms of having very few actually religious people.
People are practicing cultural Christianity here. Very few people literally worship god. I honestly can't think of anybody I know that do and I'm as Danish as it gets.

This NYT articles take on what goes on in the various daycare/childcare systems is misleading to say the least.

At Christmas they'll make Christmas cookies, maybe decorate a Christmas tree. At easter they'll be painting eggs. There'll literally be zero actual interaction with the bible at all.

Televator said:
Edit: is the article misleading?

Yes. Sort of. Kind of.

Lets say it's the bleakest most pessimistic interpretation possible of what's happening.

Calm Waterfall · Jul 3, 2018

Usyren said:
Uh ok I understood teaching young kids at an early age the Danish language so that they can fit in better. But the rest... yeah no.

They have to learn it in high school anyway. Christianity is an obligatory subject in high schools.

Gwenpoolshark · Jul 3, 2018

CrashFaster said:
That is rich, Yanks calling us racist. lmao. I'm done here, ban me for all I care.

My country is racist as shit and I'm not proud of it.

Calm Waterfall · Jul 3, 2018

B.O.O.M. said:
Aaah yes Daycare..the place where we go to develop social skills lol

Man you serious with this?

Yes daycares are very important to start developing these skills at an early age. Kids learn by playing. They have play dates. These social interaction strengthen their language and social skills. Your laugh about documented studies shows your ignorance about the subject.

Calm Waterfall · Jul 3, 2018

Moff said:
Nothing in the article suggest that this is about the indoctrination of religion, it simply explains the two biggest holidays in the country, Easter and Christmas, that's it.

We don't even explain what Christmas and Easter are. All we do with on Christmas and Easter is drawing or clipping Christmas tree clips and Easter bunny clips to decorate the room. Also celebrate danish Halloween.
Daycares are very important for children to learn social skills, language and motor skills. Americans /others in this thread have no damn clue about daycares here they just come mouth off some garbage they don't know anything about. Well the article is poorly written anyway.

Primal Sage · Jul 3, 2018

gcwy said:
Me neither, an outlier for Europe I think.

Not at all. Denmark is one of the least Christian countries in Europe. Rightwing politicians can spout nonsense about Christian values all they want but that doesn't change that:

-The church has zero power.
-The only time anyone goes to church is funerals, Christmas, Easter, and sometimes weddings. Even a lot of weddings aren't done in church for religious reasons. The rest of the year they are pretty much deserted.
-More children believe in Santa Claus than Jesus.
-We have no religious lobby.

The cultural clashes all over Europe regarding the influx of immigrants from primarily Muslim countries aren't the same here compared to southern Europe. In Spain it's Catholicism clashing with Islam. In Denmark it's agnosticism/atheism clashing with Islam. We generally don't care about religion.

Jpop · Jul 3, 2018

B.O.O.M. said:
Aaah yes Daycare..the place where we go to develop social skills lol

Man you serious with this?

Daycare or social interaction at a young age is incredibly important and healthy for a child's development. I'm not sure why that sounds so controversial to you

ishan · Jul 3, 2018

I guess I can agree with the main aspects of this but why the Christmas thing ? Is Denmark a Christian country (I mean legally ) . If not promote just holidays for all during any religion or none etc . Also kinda why I like Frances approach

joecanada · Jul 3, 2018

Jpop said:
Daycare or social interaction at a young age is incredibly important and healthy for a child's development. I'm not sure why that sounds so controversial to you

That's not a reason to force people to attend. Parents can fill this need absolutely . Children don't need school prior to kindergarten it can be a bonus.

RastaMentality · Jul 3, 2018

Crazy how these countries don't even have as many non white people as America yet and they're still melting down. Can the West handle brown and black people?

Fanatic · Jul 3, 2018

ishan said:
I guess I can agree with the main aspects of this but why the Christmas thing ? Is Denmark a Christian country (I mean legally ) . If not promote just holidays for all during any religion or none etc . Also kinda why I like Frances approach

Christmas is pretty much all about Danish culture and have very little to do with religion.

And yes the Church of Denmark is the only state-sponsored religion here. Big surprise when we've been Christian for +1000 years and have been a pretty much completely homogeneous society.

But unless you're baptized you're not enrolled in the faith, and even if you do get baptized you can opt-out of supporting the church when you turn 18.

AntoneM · Jul 3, 2018

I just want to say as an American, it is completely weird to me that a child should be forced by the government to know any particular language before going to school.

Fanatic · Jul 3, 2018

AntoneM said:
I just want to say as an American, it is completely weird to me that a child should be forced by the government to know any particular language before going to school.

??? The teachers in danish schools speak danish. How is the kids supposed to learn and socialize if they don't master the host language?

Nuzzle · Jul 3, 2018

AntoneM said:
I just want to say as an American, it is completely weird to me that a child should be forced by the government to know any particular language before going to school.

So how do you expect them to follow in school? Do you expect teachers to know dozens of languages? Lol.

Icarus · Jul 3, 2018

Not sure why this is branded as racist. It's targeting foreign people who could be of any colour.

Yes the way that article is written can be seen as strict but additionally the best way for foreign people to integrate in to society is through language and socialising which at its core is what they're trying to achieve.

Religion is a topic I never like to talk about but the more expansive and broaden people know of other religions in my opinion can only be seen as a good thing.

Psoelberg · Jul 3, 2018

B.O.O.M. said:
Aaah yes Daycare..the place where we go to develop social skills lol

Man you serious with this?

I by no means supports the new laws, but boy, do you have a lot of sociological and psychological studies to read up on if you feel the need to mock the quoted comment with an extremely ignorant reply.

Jpop · Jul 3, 2018

joecanada said:
That's not a reason to force people to attend. Parents can fill this need absolutely . Children don't need school prior to kindergarten it can be a bonus.

Read what I am responding too?

Primal Sage · Jul 3, 2018

joecanada said:
That's not a reason to force people to attend. Parents can fill this need absolutely . Children don't need school prior to kindergarten it can be a bonus.

First of all, this is not school.
Second, how do you propose the parents teach the child to speak a language they don't even speak themselves?

TwinBahamut · Jul 3, 2018

Nuzzle said:
So how do you expect them to follow in school? Do you expect teachers to know dozens of languages? Lol.

A sufficient subset of teachers, sure. It can be combined with specialized instruction for Danish as a second language, not unlike ESL classes here in the US.

A country doesn't need either an official language or to force all of its residents to speak a single language in order to function. It is perfectly feasible to have a society where multiple languages are spoken.

Interested Observer · Jul 3, 2018

TwinBahamut said:
A sufficient subset of teachers, sure. It can be combined with specialized instruction for Danish as a second language, not unlike ESL classes here in the US.

A country doesn't need either an official language or to force all of its residents to speak a single language in order to function. It is perfectly feasible to have a society where multiple languages are spoken.

This is ridiculous. Nothing is stopping multiple languages being spoken.

If the kids entering school don't speak Danish they are going to be moving at a different pace than everyone else, this is obvious. There are only so many hours in the day. We'd probably then have complaints of racist Danes leaving immigrant children behind in school.

Nuzzle · Jul 3, 2018

TwinBahamut said:
A sufficient subset of teachers, sure. It can be combined with specialized instruction for Danish as a second language, not unlike ESL classes here in the US.

A country doesn't need either an official language or to force all of its residents to speak a single language in order to function. It is perfectly feasible to have a society where multiple languages are spoken.

I strongly disagree. Denmark is a very small country with the population of a big American city. We can't have 10 wildly different languages, the country wouldn't function.

The Archon · Jul 3, 2018

As a Christian I feel this is wrong, no one should be drafted in to Christianity or any other religion if their family has no interest in said religion. This is discrimination disguised as education.

AntoneM · Jul 3, 2018

Fanatic said:
??? The teachers in danish schools speak danish. How is the kids supposed to learn and socialize if they don't master the host language?

Nuzzle said:
So how do you expect them to follow in school? Do you expect teachers to know dozens of languages? Lol.

Here in Arizona, on the Mexican border, we deal with it all the time. We have English as a second language classes, and not just for Spanish speakers.

I never knew other Western countries didn't do that. That partially explains why your public education scores are so high.

TwinBahamut · Jul 3, 2018

Interested Observer said:
This is ridiculous. Nothing is stopping multiple languages being spoken.

If the kids entering school don't speak Danish they are going to be moving at a different pace than everyone else, this is obvious. There are only so many hours in the day. We'd probably then have complaints of racist Danes leaving immigrant children behind in school.

I never said anything about stopping multiple languages from being spoken?

Look, where I live English may be the dominant language, but it is totally possible to live life as a normal member of society without speaking English. Everything from schooling to voting can be handled 100% in other languages like Spanish or Chinese, and most important things make as many accommodations as possible. If you look at something like a list of local doctors, pretty much every one offers services in four different languages.

It is not a problem for someone to not know a language, it is a problem if society doesn't make accomodations for that person. That is the mdntality here, and it works out quite well.

Nuzzle · Jul 3, 2018

The Archon said:
As a Christian I feel this is wrong, no one should be drafted in to Christianity or any other religion if their family has no interest in said religion. This is discrimination disguised as education.

And they aren't. The article is plain wrong. The children will be attending normal daycare, where they play, learn motor skills, develop language and social skills. Around easter they paint eggs, and around christmas they bake cookies.

There is NO religious indoctrination. Frankly people here in Denmark couldn't give a rats ass about religion.

Urban Scholar · Jul 3, 2018

After looking through...

I would say I'm surprised but I'm really not at the caping going on in this thread.

How this sounds OK to anyone...is something else

Cryptosporidium · Jul 3, 2018

signal said:
I guess they REALLY want to get children integrated. Reads like some Canadian Residential Schools tier stuff though.

Basically my first thought

Youd think theyd look towards programs in the past to see how theyve turned out

British Canada has tried twice to forcefully culturally assimilate nations, first with the French and then with the Aboriginals

Neither worked and weve since devised much better methods of assimilation

However I also understand that our closed borders and location have allowed us these opportunies.

Ghettoization is a major European problem which has directly led to things like the Paris attacks etc.

zoukka · Jul 3, 2018

RastaMentality said:
Crazy how these countries don't even have as many non white people as America yet and they're still melting down. Can the West handle brown and black people?

I think you are missing the key difference between america and the current immigrant waves in europe: centuries of time.

SkyOdin · Jul 3, 2018

Nuzzle said:
And they aren't. The article is plain wrong. The children will be attending normal daycare, where they play, learn motor skills, develop language and social skills. Around easter they paint eggs, and around christmas they bake cookies.

There is NO religious indoctrination. Frankly people here in Denmark couldn't give a rats ass about religion.

Why do they need to celebrate Christmas and Easter though? What harm comes from some people simply not celebrating those holidays?

Deleted member 1041 · Jul 3, 2018

Nuzzle said:
And they aren't. The article is plain wrong. The children will be attending normal daycare, where they play, learn motor skills, develop language and social skills. Around easter they paint eggs, and around christmas they bake cookies.

There is NO religious indoctrination. Frankly people here in Denmark couldn't give a rats ass about religion.

yeah it's actually amazing the thread title hasn't been changed.

If the kids are learning the language and what not, that's fine tbh. They're not being indoctrinated at all. Assimilation is good, people.

ishan · Jul 3, 2018

Nuzzle said:
I strongly disagree. Denmark is a very small country with the population of a big American city. We can't have 10 wildly different languages, the country wouldn't function.

I can agree with this. Its not hard especially at a young stage to pick up a new language. I dont see the harm in a child learning danish and say their own tongue at home. being bilingual can only help at a young stage its very easy to learn another language.

Normal · Jul 3, 2018

Calm Waterfall said:
They have to learn it in high school anyway. Christianity is an obligatory subject in high schools.

Man that's so weird to me as someone who lives in the US. Could never see this happening in a public school. Always thought European countries were less religious, guess I shouldn't assume.

Nuzzle · Jul 3, 2018

Usyren said:
Man that's so weird to me as someone who lives in the US. Could never see this happening in a public school. Always thought European countries were less religious, guess I shouldn't assume.

He isn't telling the truth though. We are taught all religions, not christianity. We get to pick the ones we find interesting, and focus on them.

AstralTurfWarrior · Jul 3, 2018

AntoneM said:
Here in Arizona, on the Mexican border, we deal with it all the time. We have English as a second language classes, and not just for Spanish speakers.

I never knew other Western countries didn't do that. That partially explains why your public education scores are so high.

In most European countries, studying at least one other language is mandatory or if not, then practically everyone studies one such anyway. Generally there are multiple options. English especially is studied very heavily.

However, a teacher knowing a language and even being able to speak it fluently, is vastly different than actually having the qualifications to teach with it or even with it.

Besides that, most people being able to speak at least two languages still doesn't mean there are a lot of people for everyone's language.

Moff · Jul 3, 2018

TwinBahamut said:
It is not a problem for someone to not know a language, it is a problem if society doesn't make accomodations for that person. That is the mdntality here, and it works out quite well.

1. You'd need teachers for all classes in dozens languages from all over eastern europe, the middle east and africa. That is obviously not the reasonable solution here.

2. It would literally ruin the kids' lives not to teach them Danish. They could not interact with locals or ever get jobs.

Irminsul · Jul 3, 2018

SkyOdin said:
Why do they need to celebrate Christmas and Easter though? What harm comes from some people simply not celebrating those holidays?

Scenario A: "Hey kids, let's all come together and celebrate Yule (yes, that's what Christmas is called in Denmark) with gifts and decorating and stuff! And once Eid arrives, we can celebrate again!"
Scenario B: "Sorry kids, we won't do what we did for years. Yes, without the three new kids, we wouldn't have any need to change things, but now we can't. Don't take it out on them, though."

Yeah, what could possibly be the harm of not celebrating something you have for years?

Apart from that, I really love "Americans explaining to others how their country should work because they once read an article about it". That really never gets old.

Dr.Phibes · Jul 3, 2018

Irminsul said:
Scenario A: "Hey kids, let's all come together and celebrate Yule (yes, that's what Christmas is called in Denmark) with gifts and decorating and stuff! And once Eid arrives, we can celebrate again!"
Scenario B: "Sorry kids, we won't do what we did for years. Yes, without the three new kids, we wouldn't have any need to change things, but now we can't. Don't take it out on them, though."

Yeah, what could possibly be the harm of not celebrating something you have for years?

Apart from that, I really love "Americans explaining to others how their country should work because they once read an article about it". That really never gets old.

Good luck trying to celebrate non-christian holidays over here without huge backlash. Politicians had meltdowns when some suggested to stop serving pork in school cafeterias.

M.Bluth · Jul 3, 2018

Icarus said:
Not sure why this is branded as racist. It's targeting foreign people who could be of any colour.

Yes the way that article is written can be seen as strict but additionally the best way for foreign people to integrate in to society is through language and socialising which at its core is what they're trying to achieve.

Religion is a topic I never like to talk about but the more expansive and broaden people know of other religions in my opinion can only be seen as a good thing.

I'm going to assume you missed the part of this policy that punishes the "ghetto folk" harder than their wealthier white counterparts.

This is a racist set of laws.

Joni · Jul 3, 2018

Usyren said:
Man that's so weird to me as someone who lives in the US. Could never see this happening in a public school. Always thought European countries were less religious, guess I shouldn't assume.

Religious classes are a bit different though. It is for instance teaching the history of religion, and the important foundation stories.

SkyOdin · Jul 3, 2018

Irminsul said:
Scenario A: "Hey kids, let's all come together and celebrate Yule (yes, that's what Christmas is called in Denmark) with gifts and decorating and stuff! And once Eid arrives, we can celebrate again!"
Scenario B: "Sorry kids, we won't do what we did for years. Yes, without the three new kids, we wouldn't have any need to change things, but now we can't. Don't take it out on them, though."

Yeah, what could possibly be the harm of not celebrating something you have for years?

Apart from that, I really love "Americans explaining to others how their country should work because they once read an article about it". That really never gets old.

I never said anything about stopping any official celebration of Christmas or such. But why does the idea of private individuals not celebrating Christmas or Easter become an issue? Why teach preschoolers Christmas or Easter as a matter of state policy?

Calm Waterfall · Jul 3, 2018

Nuzzle said:
He isn't telling the truth though. We are taught all religions, not christianity. We get to pick the ones we find interesting, and focus on them.

Yes i am Christianity is not optional but you can choose to learn about other religions.

Usyren said:
Man that's so weird to me as someone who lives in the US. Could never see this happening in a public school. Always thought European countries were less religious, guess I shouldn't assume.

Denmark is not religious but it´s a cultural thing. Christianity subject is treated more as a historical subject than faith one.

MicH · Jul 3, 2018

Usyren said:
Man that's so weird to me as someone who lives in the US. Could never see this happening in a public school. Always thought European countries were less religious, guess I shouldn't assume.

All major religions are taught in high school in Denmark. It's purely educational lije any other subject in school, it's not meant to indoctrinate students into Christianity

Irminsul · Jul 3, 2018

Dr.Phibes said:
Good luck trying to celebrate non-christian holidays over here without huge backlash. Politicians had meltdowns when some suggested to stop serving pork in school cafeterias.

Yeah, but then that behaviour is to be criticised. You probably wouldn't do that in any "official" or country-wide way but just let day-care children celebrate together. Yes, that won't prevent certain politicians from saying stupid stuff, but, well, then they're politicians saying stupid stuff. I still like the idea of multiculturalism introducing more happy occasions better than it removing them. On lunch, having an non-pork alternative is probably the best way to go, but that's probably more expensive, but again, I think it looks better that way.

SkyOdin said:
I never said anything about stopping any official celebration of Christmas or such. But why does the idea of private individuals not celebrating Christmas or Easter become an issue? Why teach preschoolers Christmas or Easter as a matter of state policy?

I have no idea what you think is happening in day-care or kindergardens. When the time comes, they'll just start colouring eggs or weave wreaths out of fir branches and wrap gifts for each other. That's Easter and Christmas, respectively. Everything else is on the article misrepresenting things.

3bdelilah · Jul 3, 2018

Starting at the age of 1, "ghetto children" must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in "Danish values," including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language.

What in the fucking fuck??? Based on the bold alone this ""law"" is a fucking atrocity and anyone who remotely supports this should get themselves checked at the nearest insane asylum. Surely some nuance is missing in the article and the Danish government isn't this fucked up in the head?

Icarus · Jul 3, 2018

M.Bluth said:
I'm going to assume you missed the part of this policy that punishes the "ghetto folk" harder than their wealthier white counterparts.

This is a racist set of laws.

What exactly is racist about it? Is it targeting a race specifically? From where I stand it's targeting foreign people living in their country.

Secondly I'm not even going to bother to argue on your "wealthier white" comment. By brandishing terms like that is just adding fuel on to the fire, the moment you highlight a race colour is the moment you're allowing racism to exist. Lets just stick with the facts that it's targeting foreign people which it is.

Granted the term "Ghetto" is stupidly dumb but I sincerely doubt that is the official term used by their Government and that this article is designed to label them like that to exactly cause this kind of outcome and ultimately more clicks.

thetrin · Jul 3, 2018

I bet if you ask Looney bin right wingers like Nick Fuentes and Lauren Souther, they'd probably think this is a move in a positive direction to aid in "integration".

You know, because us crazy brown ppl don't know no better!

Interested Observer · Jul 3, 2018

TwinBahamut said:
I never said anything about stopping multiple languages from being spoken?

Look, where I live English may be the dominant language, but it is totally possible to live life as a normal member of society without speaking English. Everything from schooling to voting can be handled 100% in other languages like Spanish or Chinese, and most important things make as many accommodations as possible. If you look at something like a list of local doctors, pretty much every one offers services in four different languages.

It is not a problem for someone to not know a language, it is a problem if society doesn't make accomodations for that person. That is the mdntality here, and it works out quite well.

This isn't about where you live. It doesn't really matter what happens there. In small countries like Denmark or where I live in Ireland it's not feasible to set up little enclaves where the local language isn't spoken.

[New York Times]: In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’

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