Why so much projection onto a kid's shirt? This isn't excusing horrible acts made by adults, but more like "Ethan's been running around in circles for an hour after eating some Oreos and stomping on his toys like if he was Godzilla"
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Sleepwear brand removes kids "Boys Will Be Boys" pyjamas after complaint
- Thread starter Eduardo Corrochio
- Start date
This is also what I get from the phrase. Boys will be boys, as I heard it from my parents, is playing all day in dirt, no matter the weather and place and such. Never has it been linked to boys getting exused for bullying, sexism or other.
Jesus, how hard is it to get that the same should happen with Jane? No-one has a problem with kids will be kids. Why is it so hard for people to realize that changing one easy word can clarify what you "really mean"? Or do you really mean that only boys are allowed to get hopped up on Oreos and stomp on toys?
There are two examples just one click away if you go back a page.
Hmmm my initial reaction was outrage at the oversensitivity too. But having thought about it, I have rarely ever heard it used in the parental context of a kid running around dressed like Superman and mostly heard it used in the context of dismissing repugnant behavior from shitty adults.
So yeah, fuck it. Burn it down. I dont care.
So yeah, fuck it. Burn it down. I dont care.
I'm not really sure how you could possibly prove a negative for something like this but in any case we have anecdotal cases in this very thread.
They could also Google it and find lots of other examples.
I guess I am too old and 'mediocre white' to understand why people get upset about stuff like this.
Read the page you replied on and you might get some sense of it.
Try to imagine going to school every day of your life only to be bullied. You get pushed into walls and windows, elbowed in the hallway, outright sucker punched on the way back from recess. You get harassed waiting for the bus stop so much you time it to get there right as the bus arrives every day to minimize it.
Now imagine that about 90% of adults that ever interact with that situation dismiss it as "boys will be boys."
Yeah...
In the worst possible context, it is used to handwave problematic behavior.
I get the deplatforming argument for people who want to spew terrible hate.
But I generally don't care to see a piece of apparel go away that upsets some people. Not everything needs to be seen through the lens of trying to beat back on behaviors we don't like. Unless it's actually advocating violence or racism, I don't think a shirt that says that is so vile that it needs to be pulled from shelves.
I get the deplatforming argument for people who want to spew terrible hate.
But I generally don't care to see a piece of apparel go away that upsets some people. Not everything needs to be seen through the lens of trying to beat back on behaviors we don't like. Unless it's actually advocating violence or racism, I don't think a shirt that says that is so vile that it needs to be pulled from shelves.
Ah, but next time you'll think of both because of this thread!
And, if you read the thread fully, you'll remember all the good examples of why this phrase is harmful, so you'll remember it wasn't just the PC crowd making a fuss.
We absolutely DO need to look at everything through this lens.
It might feel exhausting for YOU to have to think so much about the things you say, the phrases you use, but that little sacrifice of yours could go a long way to make someone else (probably a marginalized person) feel better and help steer social convention in a just direction.
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Funny how everyone quote this post from the first page but nobody quotes the one with the article with examples and links to when it was used to excuse harassment, bad behavior and even the RAPE OF A CHILD.
And that is ignoring that dude who raped an unconscious woman and the asshole olympic swimmer that were already mentioned
And everyone being in favor of it still ignores that AT BEST it is a sexist sentence for not being "kids will be kids"
I just wanted to highlight this post again for the people who think it always means "kids will be kids"
It would be if the quote wasn't referencing him and it being a bait post.
I'm not saying it isn't used in that way. I'm just saying that I personally have never seen it being used in that way. Maybe it's a US thing or maybe I just haven't been exposed to that usage of the term.
That was sarcasm, it was badly done.
Some kind of case in point?
Fuck this thread.
My bad, didn't pick up on it. In which case yeh, I had the same sentiment upon reading it.
Did you have anything to offer to any of the points I made or are you content with just trolling? I've been having a discussion in good faith and you've been offering me one-line non-responses. It's fine if we disagree on stuff but I can't really work with what you're giving here.
I got it!
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Because parents might think it's cuter for their son than just having "Kids Will Be Kids"??? This is not even close to the only gender-specific clothing for babies no???
There are loads of gender specific clothes for children.
This item just happens to include a phrase that's helped design toxic masculinity and that's been co-opted by bigots.
You're purposefully removing the context. If you think this is about just the word "boy" then you don't understand the conversation.
I was merely responding to a post explaining why the shirt is not gender-neutral. Further proving my point, there are dozens of "Girls Will Be Girls" shirts online after doing a simple Google shirt. It's an overreaction IMO.
Interesting...your google must be better than mine. I only saw a couple, and they were for adults, not kids. And it's not really cuter seeing a boy stomp on his toys than a girl. As a dad of two boys I'm really done with hearing about how boys are just expected to be little shits and "oh well, boys will be boys". So cute!
Who are these people that complain about stuff like this? Where do they come from? Are there really that many of them that they can exert so much pressure on a company to change their practices? I'm glad I don't know anyone like this
Only if you ignore all the people ITT who've explained why it's not...
Google "Girls Will Be Girls" shirt and the 2nd link is from a shop called "Peek Kids"
Since in my life and world, the phrase is still used for boys doing things like ruining their clothes with mud. I recognize the difference between a cute catch phrase on a shirt for little kids and the societal dismissal of toxic masculinity and misogyny so it's hard for me to be as outraged as you. I'll bow gracefully now out.
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If a girl came home with her clothes ruined with mud, would you still say "boys will be boys!"? The catch phrase just isn't cute, and pretty much unneeded.
No phrase is needed, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I've only heard the phrase "boys will be boys" used to excuse awful, punishable behavior like violence, destruction of personal property, bullying, and sexual harassment. I shed no tears seeing it no longer being printed on children's apparel, much like I wouldn't cry if a phrase like "she was asking for it" got dropped from a line of clothing because parents found it inappropriate. If you want to make reference to how precocious your young boy is, use a turn of phrase that hasn't been used to justify toxic masculinity for decades.
You can't borrow just the meaning you WANT from the phrase from the greater context of its general use and history.
You can't borrow just the meaning you WANT from the phrase from the greater context of its general use and history.
It brings attention to gender roles and it's a very uncomfortable quote. Even disregarding the usage of the sentence to excuse bad behavior, there's plenty boys that feel pressured to act a certain 'boyish' way and some parents can be oblivious to that by holding on to these gender norms. Most boys won't have an issue with it, but it'll always be the most intimidating parents that will pick out a shirt like this to pressure their kid into acting a certain way.
This is where I'm at. I understand both arguments and as a father of a young toddler, I hear the statement "boys will be boys" quite often. Especially on play dates and daycare and such.
I guess, like everything else, context and nuance is key.
But I don't see the shirt as being vile enough to pull either. Under the right context, the statement is true. Under the wrong context, the statement is sexist and dismissive. However, the phrase being on the shirt for toddlers doesn't seem like the wrong context to me.
Your anecdote adds nothing to the conversation. So what if you have personally heard it used that way? It gets used that way.
A company chose to remove an item due to feedback from their customers. The only overreaction I'm seeing is the hand wringing in this thread by people who "just don't get it!"
This whole thing reminds me of how Trump got away with admitting to sexual assault by claiming it was locker room talk.
"Girls will be girls" has never been used as a defense for somebody's rape.
That's what my aunt told me when her sons used to beat me up as a kid
Nothing of value is lost here
Nothing of value is lost here
Even if you don't believe the phrase is toxic by default, then why can't you give up using a throwaway playful phrase that helps perpetuate a more toxic version that you acknowledge exists?
I have no problem with this. It's a bad phrase used to excuse and normalize bad behavior with bad reasoning.
Same here. Even if you want to put your head in the sand about the really ugly stuff the phrase is/has been associated with, you're still left with some lingering questions.
Do you believe a child acting like an obnoxious, out-of-control little shit is acceptable, and only acceptable, when they're a boy?
Do you believe boys aged 1-5 are naturally more destructive than girls of the same age?
Does the phrase "kids will be kids" not convey the same general meaning of young children being prone to acting recklessly/destructively without giving one gender an "out" for unruly behavior and the other a wag of the finger?
If you answered "no" to the first two questions and "yes" to the last, then there's no issue. Say "kids will be kids." Why die on a hill for a dumb phrase when a far less warped (again, not even getting into the truly heinous stuff here) alternative phrase is readily available?
It seems a little oversensitive of a reaction... But then again all that phrase is is chalking up bad behavior to being a young man, which lowers their expectations of themselves and paves the way for excusing them from accountability. It's a bad thing to implant in their mind - "sure, I'm a piece of shit, but what do you expect - I'm a boy!" I don't think "kids will be kids" would be any better for the same reason, really. Show them who you want them to be, or just have it look good, or have it be harmless fun. To be honest, that shirt is 0-3, it's ugly, not really harmless, and isn't remotely aspirational.
Why buy them that when they can wear this cool watercolor art shirt that lets them dream about having a bright future pursuing their interests?
(Replace with whatever their interest is, obviously)
But yeah, personally I would've just not bought them the shirt rather than complained and brought in such a dark context (contemporary sexism) that really only tangentially applies. The "princess" this and that wear is out of control and I don't see anybody pulling that shit from the shelves -- not being a whataboutist re: gender, either, because I really think it's actually more of an issue of example-setting and behavioral expectations than "reinforcing gender roles." Telling kids they are princesses and telling them they're pieces of shit expected to behave poorly are both very bad looks.
Why buy them that when they can wear this cool watercolor art shirt that lets them dream about having a bright future pursuing their interests?
(Replace with whatever their interest is, obviously)
But yeah, personally I would've just not bought them the shirt rather than complained and brought in such a dark context (contemporary sexism) that really only tangentially applies. The "princess" this and that wear is out of control and I don't see anybody pulling that shit from the shelves -- not being a whataboutist re: gender, either, because I really think it's actually more of an issue of example-setting and behavioral expectations than "reinforcing gender roles." Telling kids they are princesses and telling them they're pieces of shit expected to behave poorly are both very bad looks.
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Never said I couldn't give it up. I just said I understand both arguments and they both have merit when in context. Your statement in bold is worth discussion and debate because the statement has different definitions depending on the context of which it's used. You have people in this very thread who have never heard it being used as a way to dismiss rape, harassment, etc.
That said, if I just had to give up the term, it'd be okay because it's pretty inconsequential. It's no biggie.
I don't know if you have kids, but it's a different world, being a parent. You learn and hear all sorts of new phrases and terms. Some silly, some throwaway, and some are poignant. I honestly have not heard the phrase as much as when I wasn't a parent and I can't apply the vile connotations of the phrase to children when used innocently. Simply because I know what they're getting at.
Yeah, I'm not understanding how people think this phrase is ok either considering how it's used today. Any phrase excusing shitty behavior in children just because of their age is going to be problematic and give children unhealthy expectations of themselves growing up. It's not an acceptable phrase.
