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Cow Mengde

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,706
Lobby based games aren't MMOs.

You can call it Intergalactic Titty Touching Sim for all I care. I just want another game online with combat like this.

Which reminds me! Imagine a MOBA/Battle Royale with combat like Vindictus! Action combat for super competitive games! Yeah, shooters are very action packed, but I want to Sword and Fist action, not guns.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
Wow is a decade past its prime and no one raves about ff14 for its combat. The mmo genre is on life support compared to what it used to be like. Western devs dont even really make new ones anymore

Hard disagree. As someone who has put an upwards of 5000 hours into FFXIV the raid encounters are by far the content that keeps me coming back. Figuring out how to push myself and make improvements from week to week is exactly what engages me in FFXIV.

And the MMO genre isn't "on life support" FFXIV, WoW and even ESO all have really healthy player bases while many other games like TERA and Black Desert Online have smaller but dedicated player bases.

The MMO genre is very much still alive and well.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
It is because WoW is Michael Jordan or something.


Guess what, he got his wish and now are starting to see an abundance of MMO lite/MP type titles, that are all about "Emergent" gameplay. Yet have nowhere near enough systems, content or gameplay to support the type of "make your own narrative" type experiences as they promise. We replaced one kind of weakness, with another. It's also given the ability to have the excuse of creating a framework title, and releasing it under the guise of "Emergent gameplay".

Something along the lines of what I wrote in the past during the rise of titles like the Division/Destiny etc.

https://www./threads/content-light-releases-and-the-devaluation-of-physical-games.1203892/

I know this is not what he envisioned either, but the reality is it ends somewhere in the middle. And honestly, a return to the themepark looks more appealing every day. There's a reason almost every MMO player eventually returns to WoW.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,768
Hard disagree. As someone who has put an upwards of 5000 hours into FFXIV the raid encounters are by far the content that keeps me coming back. Figuring out how to push myself and make improvements from week to week is exactly what engages me in FFXIV.

And the MMO genre isn't "on life support" FFXIV, WoW and even ESO all have really healthy player bases while many other games like TERA and Black Desert Online have smaller but dedicated player bases.

The MMO genre is very much still alive and well.

I think he's talking about new releases which is why he said "what it used to be like". New MMOs nowadays seem to be moving towards mobile. There aren't any new high quality/profile releases on the horizon. If anything you just have updates to existing games and that's probably going to be the case for a long time.
 

Deleted member 7450

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,842
giphy.gif


Sort of, but is kind of out of the pan into the fire, going from formulaic to formulaic.

I thought the same when DayZ and Rust where all the rage, but then it happened as usual, tons jumping out on the same formula and much of the potential of the genre being diluted.
 

Quad Lasers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,542
Presumably the skillset to make a good, healthy MMO is at a pretty far end from people who can make a deep, one-off combat system.

It's also not the predominant thing people actually into the genre seem to be concerned about. Casual MMO fanbases are much more concerned about a steady flow of content and how their progression is structured over technical combat, and when they are concerned about technical combat, they seem to be more concerned about the numbers and balance and status effects.

(And it's not like action games are that popular.)
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
giphy.gif


Sort of, but is kind of out of the pan into the fire, going from formulaic to formulaic.

I thought the same when DayZ and Rust where all the rage, but then it happened as usual, tons jumping out on the same formula and much of the potential of the genre being diluted.
Yea, I've written extensively about that as well. You're right it's formulaic to formulaic without thinking about how to evolve one sector of the title to make it special.
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
I wouldn't really count Vindictus as an MMO, you're going into instances and doing that combat correct? That's more like a GW1/PSO than a WoW. BDO has really good combat for an MMO.

World of Warcraft does, Wildstar was quite legit too for a time too.

Wildstar still has the best dungeons in any MMO i've played. Like the one end dungeon boss where it pretty much turns into a shmup where you're having to dodge a billion things on the floor. Wildstar did so much right, i'm still bummed it died.
 

Kent

Member
Jun 4, 2018
1,098
A big part of the reason MMO combat is how it is, and how WoW popularized it, is because it's manageable with how the US internet infrastructure's state is currently (which isn't that great - and is probably about to slow down its advancement quite a bit, due to politics...) - depressing as though it may be, it's kind of lowest-common-denominator when compared to the network infrastructure of some other countries with popular online gaming scenes. That said, you might find it hard to believe, but there are plenty of people who actually like that cooldown-based rhythmic hotbar gameplay. Some games actually do really clever and fun things with it. You could make a comparison to why people play 2D platformers still, when 3D is a thing; they actually like that, rather than the alternatives.

Probably one of the better attempts that I've at making a more action and player skill based combat system in an MMO from a western developer was WildStar. Due to questionable content focus early on (trying to target the "hardcore vanilla WoW raider" group - which is by far a minority), the game tanked - and is itself now free-to-play and pretty much in maintenance mode currently - but it's still got combat that is actually quite fun. Though you could still argue that it's cooldown and hotbar based (because, well, it is), it also places quite a large emphasis on movement and evading enemy attacks manually, and also aiming your own attacks manually. I think there's a grand total of two abilities in the entire game that require you use targeting to cast them, with everything else being manual (no auto-attacks or anything like that, even). The fun of combat isn't really all that evident until you get into dungeons though, which are kind of a crapshoot unless you have a party of friends you're going in with, since last I checked nobody actually uses the matchmaking system for them.

That aside, I do think something a lot of people easily underestimate is how much of a technical undertaking it is to make a high-speed action game work in an online environment, much less a massively-multiplayer one. Lots of developers still struggle with rudimentary hitscan shooting in online games, let alone projectiles - much less more complicated and intricate hitboxes like we see in offline games. Though I haven't looked into it personally, I'd say it's likely that many of the games that purport themselves as "action MMOs" aren't really such so much as they are a convincing set of smoke and mirrors layered on top of heavily-instanced game worlds that aren't used in a way that could in all honesty actually be called "massively-multiplayer." Some games are pretty up-front and honest about this - such as Destiny and The Division - while others are very much not. That's not to say that they can't be fine games in their own right, though.

It probably isn't helping that most of these attempts at action-MMOs are coming from companies out of China and Korea, whose companies have kind of a nasty reputation for being extreme grindfests infested pay-to-win, gacha and other less-than-savory microtransactions (which sucks, because some of them actually look really cool, but then have those things in them, which kills all interest I may have had in them).
 

Lork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
843
So wait, Vindictus is actually just a coop action RPG with a shared lobby? In that case you're in luck OP, because there are literally dozens of those!

There's Phantasy Star Online, the true progenitor of this "genre" (unless you want to count Diablo) and its sequel, the Monster Hunter series and the tons of imitators it spawned such as God Eater, Soul Sacrifice, Freedom Wars, Ragnarok Odyssey, Toukiden and more. And this is assuming you don't care for the shooter takes on the formula like Destiny, The Division, Borderlands and Shadow Warrior 2 as you seem to have indicated.
 

Chasex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,692
Guild Wars 2 is perpetually overlooked. People don't even mention it in in their lists of healthy MMO's, even though it's right up there with FFXIV and ESO.

Anyways, GW2 is the game that ruined all other MMO's for me in terms of the combat. It's super fast paced and responsive, no global cooldown stuff, plenty of skill shot moves that require aiming, timing based evade system, and even has some animation cancelling and invincibility frame manipulation stuff going on. It sure feels a lot like an action game to me.

It also scales extremely well, the 80 vs 80 fights in WvW are remarkable. I'm still waiting for another game to do open world combat as good as GW2. Maybe Camelot Unchained.
 

Kent

Member
Jun 4, 2018
1,098
There's Phantasy Star Online, the true progenitor of this "genre" (unless you want to count Diablo)
IIRC, Phantasy Star Online was straight-up borne out of Yuji Naka's love for Diablo, after Sega put out a call for pitches for online games for the upcoming Dreamcast.
 

ShinySunny

Banned
Dec 15, 2017
1,730
Tera is better than Vindictus.
It doesn't flow because the combat is tied to locking you down for your screw up unless you cancel it out. You don't spam skill, you actually have to time it with the boss.

BDO melee combat is top tier. Then again, it is cooldown based, short though, but it flows with regular attack.
Anyway, Vindictus is an instance based hub MMO. Not a true MMO with connected world and environment.

But yeah, I still agree with you overall though.
MMO is stale due to tab-targeting.
I have fell asleep playing FF14 and WoW sometime during raid because the combat wasn't interesting enough or not skilled enough.
After I've learned a rotation or best-when-to-use in FF14/WoW, everything is about using WASD to move from red area...wow.
 

Lork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
843
IIRC, Phantasy Star Online was straight-up borne out of Yuji Naka's love for Diablo, after Sega put out a call for pitches for online games for the upcoming Dreamcast.
I wouldn't doubt that for a second, but I think the shift to the behind the back perspective and direct controls of an action game is one of the defining features of this "genre" (loot based action RPGs?), so Diablo is more of a distant antecedent than a direct one. The game that inspired the game that created the genre, if you will.
 

Arklite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,639
Is Vindictus still a thing? Really enjoyed what I played.
Western base is half dead and dying as the seperate non-Korean servers keep getting consolidated. Heard about a private server out there with better RNG, but that's just splitting up the sparse player base. Barely alive.

Shame too, the combat and the variation between the classes is good enough to be be in a dedicated action game.
 

Hexer

Member
Oct 30, 2017
925
Man... I haven't played Vindictus in years lol. I think Black Desert Online has some pretty awesome combat. I enjoyed Tera too though :p. I do prefer the live action based combat compared to tab-targeting. It's just more engaging and fun for me. It's hard for Healers sometimes though, lol.
 

Fries

Member
Oct 25, 2017
554
So wait, Vindictus is actually just a coop action RPG with a shared lobby? In that case you're in luck OP, because there are literally dozens of those!

There's Phantasy Star Online, the true progenitor of this "genre" (unless you want to count Diablo) and its sequel, the Monster Hunter series and the tons of imitators it spawned such as God Eater, Soul Sacrifice, Freedom Wars, Ragnarok Odyssey, Toukiden and more. And this is assuming you don't care for the shooter takes on the formula like Destiny, The Division, Borderlands and Shadow Warrior 2 as you seem to have indicated.
There's also PSO2 for another action MMO but it's more of a lobby MMO with field quests that can go up to 12 players, nothing like PSO1 sadly. Good combat but it lacks challenging content.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
I wouldn't really count Vindictus as an MMO, you're going into instances and doing that combat correct? That's more like a GW1/PSO than a WoW. BDO has really good combat for an MMO.



Wildstar still has the best dungeons in any MMO i've played. Like the one end dungeon boss where it pretty much turns into a shmup where you're having to dodge a billion things on the floor. Wildstar did so much right, i'm still bummed it died.

Wildstar had a lot of good things going for it but that 40 man raiding was just no longer a feasible thing when that game came out. WoW had been doing 25 man raids for years at that point and for good reason. They definitely had some really awesome boss designs though.
 

Log!

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,412
I haven't played it in a while, but Phantasy Star Online 2 was pretty similar to Vindictus, but with a much better character creator and class system. There was an English patch last time I checked, but actually getting into the game took quite a bit of work.

Also, you mentioned Rusty Hearts, which if you liked, then Closers is rather similar, and Soul Worker is supposed to be pretty skillful.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
If you want a game that makes you feel like an action murder-rampage badass, then may I suggest Warframe? It's not the same type of action combat, but there's a learning curve to the movement, melee, and fps mechanics that is extremely satisfying to learn and master. There are a hugea mount of viable playstyles as well, and pretty much everything can be acquired by playing the game.
 

BlacJack

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,021
Even when the genre was doing well there was a lack of innovation. I haven't looked at numbers, but I feel MMOs aren't what they were 10 years ago, so who's gonna take a big risk to come up with something new?

WoW got so big and made so much money that's all devs chased after. If a company was to risk so much money on such a huge undertaking, they had to follow a guideline that was known to work, and WoW worked the best.

It's sad that this genre died in a way because of this. If you look at all the big players the combat flows in a very similar fashion to each other. That mixed with the removal of a lot of sandbox type gameplay really made all of these games feel extremely "samey" and "safe." The only real differences are the art/setting/worlds, which can range from dramatically different to pretty much a copy.

I had never played Vindictus but that gameplay does look refreshing. Unfortunate no one tried to make that really work. And now all the money is going to be pumped int Battle Royal and survival games.
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,409
Australia
I've tried a handful of MMOs over the years, but I can't get past the fact that they never seem to play as well as their offline counterparts. Even playing a game like Wildstar, which I feel does a pretty good job of combat and movement, just makes me wish I was playing a Ratchet and Clank game or something.

I really hope someday there'll be games that do the online thing without compromising the everything else.
 

Comfortable

Member
Oct 25, 2017
90
That's a thought actually, why isn't there a semi-mainstream MMO that's turnbased? I know it's a bit out of fashion now but surely some developer out there would've thought to make an MMO based on exclusively the older final fantasy's/other jrpgs

A turn based system would actually be pretty interesting. I had the same sort of thought when playing FFXIV mostly because it has probably the longest global cooldown time I've seen in an MMO (2.5s, some jobs like Ninja/Monk can go down to around 2.1s).

A turn based system with cross combos or elemental weakness or some kind of additional mechanic would have IMO been more interesting than just another tab target.

I would totally play a turn-based MMO. Though, I do play GBF, so I guess I kinda already am. But I would definitely prefer a proper turn-based MMO.
 

Vex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,213
havent played vindi in years WOW surprised to see a discussion on here. I have tried to get people to understand what vindictus actually was. But it is kinda hard to describe. I remember when the transformations first came out. People were so hype holy shit.

I will say this though: This game is so hard (especially when soloing) that it gave me skills that I can carry over to other action games. My timing with fiona and vella was impeccable. Fucking just... *MWUAH*. I used to go into raids w/o hp pots at all. So now there arent many games that I cannot beat. Too bad the game is dying tho. They just need to come out with a vindictus 2 or something. They seriously need an engine update. The character models are aging now (the knees and feet look like ps2 level meshes)
 

Goronmon

Member
Nov 9, 2017
639
There are plenty of action-oriented MMOs. Destiny, The Division, the Battlefield series, Call of Duty, Dark Souls, etc.

Of course, if you mean actual MMOs and aren't just using the term as a catch all for any game with online multiplayer than you are going to have a tougher time.

MMOs are incredibly hard to make, even with simpler combat systems like tab targeting. Action focused combat just doesn't scale well, which is why those types of games have simpler gameplay and/or limit the number of players who can play together through mechanics like lobbies or instances.

It's like asking why they don't just make Skyrim with a bigger world, better graphics and better combat. Sure all those things would be great but game development isn't just a series of checkboxes for the features you want.
 

Kayo Police

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,284
I should try out BDO, a friend of mine said Blade & Soul had what I wanted but I got quickly bored as I kinda just watched the population evaporate before my eyes in what seemed like a month.
 
OP
OP
Cow Mengde

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,706
Exactly. Vindictus isn't really an MMO.

Vindictus being called an MMO is a massive stretch.

I know, I know. I just used MMO cause I'm lazy. The point is, I wish other actual MMOs attempted something similar to Vindictus.
So wait, Vindictus is actually just a coop action RPG with a shared lobby? In that case you're in luck OP, because there are literally dozens of those!

There's Phantasy Star Online, the true progenitor of this "genre" (unless you want to count Diablo) and its sequel, the Monster Hunter series and the tons of imitators it spawned such as God Eater, Soul Sacrifice, Freedom Wars, Ragnarok Odyssey, Toukiden and more. And this is assuming you don't care for the shooter takes on the formula like Destiny, The Division, Borderlands and Shadow Warrior 2 as you seem to have indicated.

I know about these games, but all of them seem to still stick with hotkey attacks rather than timing and button executions. Vindictus isn't Street Fighter, but moves still require a certain level of execution to perform.
 

Menome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,405
An MMO way ahead of its time IMO was Neocron all the way back in 2002. It has real time first/third person shooting / spell casting in a post apocalyptic cyberpunk world.

I played the shit out of it.

Neocron was my first MMO and I still miss it. If you remember someone broadcasting in-world news on global chat as "NewsNet", that was me.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
I like Black Desert Online right now. I also liked Tera combat, I got pretty high in level on a few classes, doing dungeons solo. It was fun, especially big monsters/bosses (BAM's). I played it with a controller and managed them by setting up rotations and shifting through the different abilities, something like Final Fantasy XIV.

I also liked Aion. I played a bit of Vindictus but I never got far in it. Oh I also liked a bit of Blade and Soul, but not as much as Tera or BDO. BDO is too PVP focused, and all I do is craft stuff, grind exp for loot to sell, and buy items on the market with the money.
 

KushalaDaora

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,838
I know, I know. I just used MMO cause I'm lazy. The point is, I wish other actual MMOs attempted something similar to Vindictus.


I know about these games, but all of them seem to still stick with hotkey attacks rather than timing and button executions. Vindictus isn't Street Fighter, but moves still require a certain level of execution to perform.

Monster Hunter (and all the clone I think) definitely not 'hotkey' based.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,026
The co-op loot base games seem to take over the MMO space.

- Lobby world instead of Server wide world
- Small population of players rather than 50-100 players roaming around
 

Lucumo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
690
Dynasty Warriors Online had action combat in 2006. The AI wasn't the best (just like in the standard series) but hey, at least it was something.
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
Having a full action based MMO game seems like a bad time with the risk of network latency and the possiblity of the game chugging due to a massive amount of players on screen.

I am interested to see how combat can evolve in the genre, but the WoW/FFXIV paradigm still allows for interesting boss fights and teamwork without worrying about a complex button input.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
5,114
Morizora's Forest
I think a few things to consider.

These kind of combat works better with smaller groups of players. 4 maybe 8 or so. Any more and the cluster becomes really difficult and it is hard to see the boss' tells and such.

Latency matters a lot. Vindictus is a great example, if the host of the party is poor then the other players are essentially unplayable in the dungeon. Any sort of lag makes it extremely difficult to do well. I think Black Desert's combat feels quite nice where it falls down is the enemy balance/AI. The combat still feels like you burst an enemy with your strong attacks then dodge if they retaliate unless you're far stronger than the monster in which case you face tank and continue your assault (which is actually quite common in PvE).

AI is harder to do well. I often think that 1v1 is the best experience because the AI focuses on you always. It is a more intimate weave of attack and defense but when you start adding more players in the switch of focus trivialises a lot the combat a lot since you can heal while someone else aggros and constant aoe or 1 hit deaths as a difficulty increase doesn't always translate to fun gameplay.

MMO's strengths and priority has never really been on the combat. It is about connecting as many people as possible in a large, interesting and explorable world.

The type of game you are looking for is combat focused. Monster Hunter Online, Phantasy Star Online 2 and of course hunting games in general, Monster Hunter, Toukiden 2 and maybe Dauntless.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
Invictus was awesome but it felt more like Monster Hunter rather than a fully clever MMORPG. And there are plenty hunting games.

As for MMORPG I really enjoyed Black Desert's combat.
 

CountAntonio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,703
Dauntless, Monster Hunter, Warframe and PSO all fall more in line with Invictus. I agree though OP I'm not a fan of tab targeting mmo combat either.
 

BolognaOni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
159
Pace of innovation in MMO combat systems is about as fast as the pace of latency improvement on my internet connection.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
5,114
Morizora's Forest
I would totally play a turn-based MMO. Though, I do play GBF, so I guess I kinda already am. But I would definitely prefer a proper turn-based MMO.

I enjoyed Atlantica Online years ago but I think it got a bit grindy towards the end, probably typical for MMOs but I just couldn't keep getting into it at some point. I'm not sure how it holds up or if its even still running today.

If I remember correctly you have your hero unit and then you can hire mercenaries to fill out the remaining party member slots. There are a variety of classes and it uses a 3x3 grid per side, so you have a 3x3 for your units and a 3x3 for the enemies. Some units might attack a row or a column etc. Some can only attack from the front. I seem to remember getting destroyed by archers because they can ignore your front liners when attacking and were also a dps class.
 

Nessus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,907
I personally hate hotkey/cool down combat and have been wishing for an MMORPG with 3D Zelda-like combat for over a decade.

Never heard of Vindictus before, gonna check it out.
 

Leplutorius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
336
Because no one wants action combat in a MMO
Last year numbers for Black Desert was 7.65 milion users worldwide, a year after the game launched in the west.
https://www.pcgamer.com/black-deser...es-on-steam-has-765-million-registered-users/

Since it's always rather high in various steam lists Iit's probably way over 10 millions copies sold now, not to mention the game can be bought through the publisher's website.

I'd say that some people actually want action combat in their MMORPGs.
 

sbkodama

Member
Oct 28, 2017
203
Good locomotion is more important to me than cooldown and hitbox for action.

Blade and soul is traditionnal with cooldown and hotkey, Black desert online use buttons and combo even if it still have some cooldown.