OP
OP
Wasn't with the Jovian levels of paitence some peolpe say we should give.
And in some instances, I put 2 and 2 together myself. And it's not like I'm intellectually gifted or anything.
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"Reach out to/educate bigots" ~ to those who say this, you ever actually tried it?
- Thread starter NoName999
- Start date
Wasn't with the Jovian levels of paitence some peolpe say we should give.
And in some instances, I put 2 and 2 together myself. And it's not like I'm intellectually gifted or anything.
I come from an extremely conservative British/irish catholic family background, and I have in fact tried to reach out quite a few times. I still believe in god and the church, but I can't reconcile that with my beliefs and the beliefs of the church regarding gay people, trans people, abortion etc, and the fact more than a few of them are stone cold racists. And I tried to reach out, see if I could, not re-educate them per se, but at least have a discussion about the things we disagreed on, and it didn't work (shocker)
Essentially, they just endlessly patronised me, told me I didn't get it, it was their beliefs, called me a 'typical millennial' and acted like I'd grow out of my beliefs as I got older.
Essentially, they just endlessly patronised me, told me I didn't get it, it was their beliefs, called me a 'typical millennial' and acted like I'd grow out of my beliefs as I got older.
I have, a gamergater, but he was a)relatively on the fence, one of those useful idiots that just kept repeating gamergate talking points, and b)I share OPs scepticism on the effectiveness of such attempts.
There is a difference between engaging a friend that went on a bad trajectory, and a stranger. Changing a stranger with good arguments is almost always a pipe dream. FRIENDS OR FAMILY can be affected, though.
There is a difference between engaging a friend that went on a bad trajectory, and a stranger. Changing a stranger with good arguments is almost always a pipe dream. FRIENDS OR FAMILY can be affected, though.
I've been doing this recently with those in my extended friend group. My close friends are pretty much open lefties, but some of their aquaintences aren't. Recently we had a party for someone's birthday and I got to meet a few of his co-workers and what happened after was me downing almost a whole bottle of tequila and philosophizing to a bunch of country boys. Most of them just kinda got uncomfortable and left the room or the party itself, but two guys stayed and actually seemed to come to some sort of realization. I dunno, maybe it stuck.
Happened the other way to me. I grew up conservative and got into a lot of libertarian writing in college. Had some not-so-great views. Essentially had a 180 degree turn after college thanks to my friends talking me out of it and also being more open to listen to more liberal outlets like GAF/ERA.
It requires that the person who you want to change desires to learn and grow better. If that doesn't exist, you cannot reach out and make someone change their viewpoints, you just simply can't. It's a two-way street and if one way is closed off to it, no amount of facts, explanations, or emotional appeals will work, plain and simple.
It requires that the person who you want to change desires to learn and grow better. If that doesn't exist, you cannot reach out and make someone change their viewpoints, you just simply can't. It's a two-way street and if one way is closed off to it, no amount of facts, explanations, or emotional appeals will work, plain and simple.
This only potentially works on people close to you who already trust you and mostly depends on how much conspiratory brainwashing they've endured.
I am, on the other hand, 100% convinced that there is a huge market of edgy (insert Sonic image) left-leaning people being completely underserved in the fascist intellectual smackdown department. More of that, please. Ridicule these nazi fuckshits until they break down over losing their jobs and let everyone else enjoy themselves over it. That's the very least nazi punks deserve for what their ideology has done and continues to do. Zero sympathy.
I am, on the other hand, 100% convinced that there is a huge market of edgy (insert Sonic image) left-leaning people being completely underserved in the fascist intellectual smackdown department. More of that, please. Ridicule these nazi fuckshits until they break down over losing their jobs and let everyone else enjoy themselves over it. That's the very least nazi punks deserve for what their ideology has done and continues to do. Zero sympathy.
I didn't have any success in my attempts, and I always tried the mildest approach possible. It made me lose a lot of 'friends' and acquaintances, especially people of my own age and circles. Usually, they were the type ''of course we must respect POC/LGBT/women'' but made horrible jokes, did a lot of slut-shaming, casual racism, especially horrible transphobia, homophobia, and so on.
On the other hand, my parents (from a very fundamentalist church) changed A LOT of their behaviors influenced by diversity training at the company (my father) and podcast-like radio programs (my mother) which tackled these subjects. My father argued with racists at his work in defense of his black colleague (he is white) and my mother changed her views on sexual harassment completely. It was nice to hear her saying ''It's never the woman's fault, she could be naked on the street, nobody has the right to harass her!''.
So I believe the education has indeed a positive impact, but maybe people receive it better from someone they see as an authority somehow. Maybe, if it was me trying to change them, they could have ended up worse.
On the other hand, my parents (from a very fundamentalist church) changed A LOT of their behaviors influenced by diversity training at the company (my father) and podcast-like radio programs (my mother) which tackled these subjects. My father argued with racists at his work in defense of his black colleague (he is white) and my mother changed her views on sexual harassment completely. It was nice to hear her saying ''It's never the woman's fault, she could be naked on the street, nobody has the right to harass her!''.
So I believe the education has indeed a positive impact, but maybe people receive it better from someone they see as an authority somehow. Maybe, if it was me trying to change them, they could have ended up worse.
The biggest issue with this is that people act like the bigots have already grasped the concept of, "Systemic racism/discrimination exists every day."
As if now you're just trying to get them to be as compelled as you are to change things.
But they haven't grasped that concept. They're still on the, "Black people do it to themselves" and "If LGBT people would just live their lives and not try to cram it down others' throats" stage.
So, good fucking luck.
As if now you're just trying to get them to be as compelled as you are to change things.
But they haven't grasped that concept. They're still on the, "Black people do it to themselves" and "If LGBT people would just live their lives and not try to cram it down others' throats" stage.
So, good fucking luck.
Same. I used to be the same way. Posted this in another thread
For people that say yes and are from America, do the people in your stories still vote Republican, Libertarian or abstain from voting?
People often hold opinions others consider offensive without them being irredeemable bigots. This place isn't remotely reflective of my real world experiences, where most people I speak to see the nuance. Too many posters here see things as black or white.
What's interesting is that both Trayvon Martin and Ferguson were also the crucial turning points for me as well. My initial reaction was one of "that's so fucking wrong, to shoot that kid", and to hear all these awful speaking points being parroted out by other conservatives was mind-boggling.
The other huge factor was Trump himself. Always hated trump, and to hear him squawk out horrible extremes of beliefs I once held was more than enough for me to see that all this shit was wrong and I'd been lying to myself.
The other huge factor was Trump himself. Always hated trump, and to hear him squawk out horrible extremes of beliefs I once held was more than enough for me to see that all this shit was wrong and I'd been lying to myself.
To anyone who has done this "successfully" or felt they made a breakthrough to someone.
How do you know that it stuck?
Said bigot could just have been nodding and pretending to have an epiphany so you would leave them alone. He would also know not to talk about racial matters around you anymore unless he wants another lecture.
I'm not saying give up, but its just hard to know whether or not what you say is really and truly making an impact. I think the only person who can truly educate a bigot and change his mind is himself.
How do you know that it stuck?
Said bigot could just have been nodding and pretending to have an epiphany so you would leave them alone. He would also know not to talk about racial matters around you anymore unless he wants another lecture.
I'm not saying give up, but its just hard to know whether or not what you say is really and truly making an impact. I think the only person who can truly educate a bigot and change his mind is himself.
Right? Unless they actually do the work and the actions to repair the damage done by their old behavior, they can just say they've learned a lesson without having to commit to anything.
I tried for years with my dad with no luck, he just goes deeper and deeper into the Fox News alternate reality. For a while I thought I had made some progress with getting him to believe in climate change, he did finally agree that it was real but not that it was man-made. Baby steps, right? But then I realized that Fox News had recently changed their opinion to "Well it might be happening, but humans are totally not the cause that's just libtard propaganda". I pretty much stopped trying to change people's minds after that.
I've tried.
The times I did, I kept on thinking about the Nietzsche quote about looking into the darkness.
The times I did, I kept on thinking about the Nietzsche quote about looking into the darkness.
We taking about the Trump cult of personality bigots? I've made them keep their fucking mouths shut around me, because they're cowards who can't think for themselves. That Fox News bubble is so goddamn real.
I've had better luck with a handful of other family members who are ignorant in a lot of ways but not that far gone.
I've had better luck with a handful of other family members who are ignorant in a lot of ways but not that far gone.
Looking at it from the other side, to the people who believe that there is never any point in trying to help bigots or to understand how they became like they are, do you believe that bigotry is genetic? Because if not, we should absolutely be doing our best to understand how people end up that way so that it can be countered. Because you'd better believe the other side is way ahead of us on that.
It has nothing to do with owing anyone anything, or being nice to Nazis. It's just an obvious truth that if you want fewer bigots then you need to stop more people becoming bigots and/or convert people who have already gone that way.
It has nothing to do with owing anyone anything, or being nice to Nazis. It's just an obvious truth that if you want fewer bigots then you need to stop more people becoming bigots and/or convert people who have already gone that way.
It's like trying to teach a shark to be a vegetarian.
This rhetoric is a naive approach at beat and cloak and dagger bullshit at worst.
The more it goes on, the more I suspect it's real reason for existence is so racists have an easy obstacle to overcome. All they rally have to do is humor you into thinking they're actually considering changing while they pull their horseshit.
This rhetoric is a naive approach at beat and cloak and dagger bullshit at worst.
The more it goes on, the more I suspect it's real reason for existence is so racists have an easy obstacle to overcome. All they rally have to do is humor you into thinking they're actually considering changing while they pull their horseshit.
Depends. My brother suddenly(?) got super racist in the last couple years, and after piping up a bunch of times I realized it was pointless because I KNOW him: he has arrogance to spare, so I will never be able to convince him he's wrong because he's incapable of believing he's wrong about anything. Even if he does realize he's wrong, his pride will prevent him from changing his behavior so as not to even APPEAR wrong i.e that he changed his mind. So now I just avoid him, because it's not worth it and I don't want to listen to his shit.
This is the best I ever got. Never seen any kind of reflection or actual change.
If I'm reaching out to them its only so I can slap them.
It's not my job to teach them to be better people. I'm not their Momma.
It's not my job to teach them to be better people. I'm not their Momma.
You can say i was once a bit misogynist. But i think i have changed because of twitter. So yeah people can change
I mean, if you guys are telling not to bother arguing with anyone, I'm pretty much down with that.
Fuck everyone else, I mean a lot of those fuckers are racist and I'll just ignore all of them, that works for me. I work and live with a lot of them but I mean a bunch of them are jerks for real so...I'll just continue going outside as little as possible.
Fuck everyone else, I mean a lot of those fuckers are racist and I'll just ignore all of them, that works for me. I work and live with a lot of them but I mean a bunch of them are jerks for real so...I'll just continue going outside as little as possible.
lmao using the shit out of this
I've had to slap both verbally and physically a few friends and family members for saying dumb shit
People can change it's true. But they have to want to change. If they don't they will just hunker down and AT BEST nod at your compelling arguments before ignoring them.
They won't necessarily double down because most don't think of themselves as racists/homophobes/sexists/etc. But they'll ignore and move one.
Take my own father for an example. He never in his life has ever treated a black person differently in person.
But he is quick to agree with the Welfare Queen, the effeminate gay hairdresser, the Hispanic dock worker stereotypes.
When pressed on it he always points out how he always treats the people around him equally, blind and unwilling to accept that systematic racism exists.
Fortunately he's finally crawled out of the youtube alt right hole and focuses more of stupid paranomal stuff. But try to explain systematic discrimination, even for his own pansexual son who has literally been gay bashed and he always points out that "he" has never done that.
It's nice that you didn't, dad. But that doesn't make you not part of the problem.
They won't necessarily double down because most don't think of themselves as racists/homophobes/sexists/etc. But they'll ignore and move one.
Take my own father for an example. He never in his life has ever treated a black person differently in person.
But he is quick to agree with the Welfare Queen, the effeminate gay hairdresser, the Hispanic dock worker stereotypes.
When pressed on it he always points out how he always treats the people around him equally, blind and unwilling to accept that systematic racism exists.
Fortunately he's finally crawled out of the youtube alt right hole and focuses more of stupid paranomal stuff. But try to explain systematic discrimination, even for his own pansexual son who has literally been gay bashed and he always points out that "he" has never done that.
It's nice that you didn't, dad. But that doesn't make you not part of the problem.
I was making great progress with my parents. We started having amazing conversations and I felt optimistic. Then, the Fox beast et al became something else a couple years ago. Now I can't have anything resembling a conversation about so many things. I feel devestated. They are so brainwashed.
I used to be one of those people who felt like others' could be reached. And I pushed so hard for it. But something shifted. Those days are over. There are powerful propoganda / manipulation tactics being used that have done so much damage.
Edit: My parents are Mexican. How in the fuck can they rationalize Trump? I'm so confused and sick over it.
I used to be one of those people who felt like others' could be reached. And I pushed so hard for it. But something shifted. Those days are over. There are powerful propoganda / manipulation tactics being used that have done so much damage.
Edit: My parents are Mexican. How in the fuck can they rationalize Trump? I'm so confused and sick over it.
Though I don't have a particular example to share, I think there is a place for persuasive argument in the war against bigotry.
I also think there is a place for direct action, for debate, for calling out, for shutting down, for reaching kids through education, and for punching scumbags right in their fizzogs.
No one tactic will ever win a war. Each one needs to be applied when and where it is right and proper to do so and with have maximum effect. You punch out Nazis, you don't punch out 80-year-olds who still refer to Chinese restaurants as 'chinkys'.
The onus is not (or indeed, should not be) on the oppressed to educate or be civil, but it behoves us all to do everything we can to combat this bullshit. Being closed off to an avenue that could potentially contribute to making life better for everyone is baffling to me.
I also think there is a place for direct action, for debate, for calling out, for shutting down, for reaching kids through education, and for punching scumbags right in their fizzogs.
No one tactic will ever win a war. Each one needs to be applied when and where it is right and proper to do so and with have maximum effect. You punch out Nazis, you don't punch out 80-year-olds who still refer to Chinese restaurants as 'chinkys'.
The onus is not (or indeed, should not be) on the oppressed to educate or be civil, but it behoves us all to do everything we can to combat this bullshit. Being closed off to an avenue that could potentially contribute to making life better for everyone is baffling to me.
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