Waypoint: CDPR Won't Commit to Gender Fluidity in ‘Cyberpunk 2077’ (Yet)

The level of difficulty to add this basically comes down two things.

1. How do characters refer to your player character? Do they say, he or she? Or do they always call you by another name like, Boss or something? Some games don't ever say he or she but always make sure to use a characters title, some do both however.
2. Do characters react differently in the current game if the player is male or female. If they do then naturally they would need to also account for the other choices. Depending on the social development of the Cyberpunk world (I'm not familiar with the specific tabletop setting they're using), this could be a huge undertaking. Namely since all dialogue is voice acted.

It would be cool but there's not enough known in the game to give a clear judgement on the feasibility. Not to mention if it would be possible this far (or midway?) into development.

I feel like I'd ascribe this more to a (perceived) lack of engagement with non-binary people, if anything.

Since it's exploring transhumanism, it'd be lovely to see 2077 tackle how concepts of sexuality and gender are broadened (and perhaps muddled) in the advent of extensive body modification technology.

That said, I'd not get mad at CDPR for not including gender fluidity for the player character at all. Just imagine the sheer amount of voice lines alone that could have to be changed.

Honestly this seems like the type of game that should have a ridiculous amount of character creation stuff I would be real surprised if it didn't when it release.

Hudo said:

Fucking hell. Let devs do what they want to do. And if someone happens to be insulted somehow (there will always be people who have enough time to be insulted by something), then just don't buy the product.

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Yeah. Devs making the games they want to make is always going to get better results.

If a team comes along and truly wants to make a game that's better representative of the fluidity of genders, they'll do a much better job at it than a team who throws it in halfway through development due to external pressures.

If they are unable to tackle these themes with the player character, I at least hope it's something that they've thought about with regard to the broader world-building.

As long as it doesn't delay the game, I don't care what they do.

I'm sure they can find a way to make it work.

Kinthey said:

This sounds just absurd. We've basically seen nothing of the game, and just because they haven't decided yet if there will be something like gender fluidity, they have chosen Cyberpunk just for its aesthetic? How many cyberpunk games are there where you can make a genderfluid character if this is apparently such a hallmark of the the setting?

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That's my question, because to my knowledge it isn't a subject matter that is brought up in the genre. At least not directly maybe indirectly and it really isn't a example of something that should be used against CD, as not being in tune with the themes of cyberpunk. Then take a scene of out context (we haven't seen ) because a developer didn't answer within a strict criteria.

Surely not enough to act like they commited a sin.

CDPR should implement this like Battletech (chosable pronouns, Gender slider) did it recently. It would fit the Cyberpunk theme well.

Do they not? I thought you could play as a male or a female?
Both genders are covered...no?

kadotsu said:

In comparison to people not physically being able to play the game their are. I just find it funny that you look at an action game and your first thought to bring more people in is non binary genders. I just think at this point a complete re-scripting of the narrative including voice recording is very difficult. Adding an aimbot isn't comparatively. If we are just talking about token support like a slider in the character creator and a pronoun selector it's another story but that comes with its own problems.

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Why are you playing off these two axes against each other as if they're totally incompatible? How do you know there's a resource problem? Do you work for the multi-hundred-million-dollar studio CDPR? Why are you imagining these logistical issues for which you have no clue if they exist or not?

tet666 said:

Do they not? I thought you could play as a male or a female?
Both genders are covered...no?

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Gender identity isn't binary.

I think this would be important simply for the message it would send.

tet666 said:

Do they not? I thought you could play as a male or a female?
Both genders are covered...no?

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There are more than two genders. Nonbinary people do exist.

Calibro said:

Yet nobody asked Adam Jensen to be customizable.

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I believe the main character in Cyberpunk 2077, is customizable though.

Ketkat said:

There are more than two genders. Nonbinary people do exist.

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Never heard of that but ok if you say so.

AntonioBanderasX1 said:

Where do we draw the line? Are we going to he a slider for tomb Raider? How about Uncharted? Why do CDPR have to implement this and not others?

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Because Cyberpunk is all about individuality, expression and becoming more than the limits of our flesh. They're not just taking the aesthetic of the setting the original creator of the table-top wouldn't have gave them the license if that were the case.

I'd like to see them include gender fluidity. More character creation options are never a bad thing, especially when they give marginalized people the option to more accurately recreate themselves.

As far as how to implement it goes, I think Battletech would serve as a good source of inspiration. Basically, when you decide to make a gender fluid/trans character in Battletech, all of the otherwise gender-locked options become available to you to use. It was a really simple and elegant way to handle it, and it elevated the Battletech character creator from being pretty good to really good.

it makes a huge amount of sense in a game about post-humanism that you get to choose to have your character identify as gender fluid. perhaps they're male, perhaps they're female, perhaps they're none of the above. cyber punk is the genre to explore this in.

WaffleTaco said:

. . . because one of the theme's of Cyberpunk 2077 is transhumanism.

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"The belief or theory that the human race can evolve beyond its current physical and mental limitations, especially by means of science and technology."

Which may include?

tet666 said:

Never heard of that but ok if you say so.

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Why not google it and learn about non-binary people?

WaffleTaco said:

Why not google it and learn about non-binary people?

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sure will do thx

tet666 said:

Never heard of that but ok if you say so.

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Ignorance is not a virtue.

Pretty disappointing. The setting they've chosen is uniquely well-suited for exploring ideas about gender, and they've already suggested they will be thinking about these kinds of things through, for instance, male nudity. For them not to go the full way doesn't bode too well; but maybe they'll manage to either explore it in some different way, or for the game to feel like a complete, coherent statement even without these elements.

AntonioBanderasX1 said:

Where do we draw the line? Are we going to he a slider for tomb Raider? How about Uncharted? Why do CDPR have to implement this and not others?

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Why do you care what devs decide to implement on top of their games?

Cabbagehead said:

"The belief or theory that the human race can evolve beyond its current physical and mental limitations, especially by means of science and technology."

Which may include?

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Gender expression and roles changing and probably getting muddled as a result of how anyone can choose to express their gender in wildly unique ways.

You might liken it to how sentient AI characters are often regarded as human/a person in sci-fi works.

One might even say that if extensive body modification included changing the body's hormonal balance/genitals/sexual phenotype (XX/XY etc) that'd lead to people abandoning the notion of having one set gender altogether.

It's a Polish game and the media here would go crazy about this. I honestly don't think Poland is ready for this. Recently in one of the public tv station, someone compared gay marriage to a "marriage with a dog". And the host didn't do anything about it...

Anyway, all I want is to play as Fred Christ :P

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/3/31666/3955748-fred+christ.jpg

Given that one of the themes of this game is transhumanism, this is a failure not just because of representation, but because it's boring. Advancements made with cybernetics, genetic engineering and 3D printed tissue is going to make things really weird in the future (from an early 21st century point of view) - people might have the capability of expressing themselves however they want, to create the exact body they want for themselves.

The cyberpunk game 2064: Read Only Memories understood this.


I know I'm making an assumption here but it looks like when they're talking about transhumanism, they're talking about whether or not we'll become more machine than man or cognitive enhancement through machine interfacing or the sentience of artificial intelligences, which is boring and has been done to death. Real life is complicated, and messy, and when the constraints on our physical form are lifted, it's gonna get even more complicated.

But sure, they'll have full nudity in it for their "transhumanist themes" while ignoring the very real contemporary way humans are using science, technology and medicine to have bodies that better conform to how they feel inside, some of which fall outside of the traditional gender binary.

I just have little to no interest in this from the perspective of something that will satisfy philosophically or as cultural commentary - I'll always have indie games and books for that I guess. I hope it's a good shooty game, but otherwise I'm not thrilled about exploring the same old science fiction tropes from the 1980s that totally ignores the cultural conversation surrounding transhumanism today.

1.21Gigawatts said:

Ignorance is not a virtue.

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Whut? Sry but this is really not a thing i have ever heard so i actually first thought it's related to people born with both male and female Sexual characteristics or Transgender People, it's certainly not a very common topic here in central Europe.

Cabbagehead said:

"The belief or theory that the human race can evolve beyond its current physical and mental limitations, especially by means of science and technology."

Which may include?

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I'm not sure what you are asking.

Funyarinpa said:

Gender expression and roles changing and probably getting muddled as a result of how anyone can choose to express their gender in wildly unique ways.

You might liken it to how sentient AI characters are often regarded as human/a person in sci-fi works.

One might even say that if extensive body modification included changing the body's hormonal balance/genitals/sexual phenotype (XX/XY etc) that'd lead to people abandoning the notion of having one set gender altogether.

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Sounds like something better suited for in world exploration. If they can't add it in the game proper for user control as an option. Just like how rockerboys and corporate class won't be classes in the game.

MadJakeChurchill said:

Why are you playing off these two axes against each other as if they're totally incompatible? How do you know there's a resource problem? Do you work for the multi-hundred-million-dollar studio CDPR? Why are you imagining these logistical issues for which you have no clue if they existthe belief or theory that the human race can evolve beyond its current physical and mental limitations, especially by means of science and technology. or not?

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Just listen to Kotaku's splitscreen interview with the co director of CDprojekt red. From last week. To get an idea on how things are in game development, while in game development and how priorities are king. Or you get longer dev times and crunch.

This would be great for people who want it, and it does seem appropriate considering the setting as well! That said, I don't agree with some folk here that it would be a trivial addition.

All you'd need to do is make your character look how you want, there shouldn't be any concern here.

The translation must be a nightmare if you have to appeal everyone tbh.

Gender fluidity would add a lot to the world of the game. Cyberpunk future is a very cool concept because it includes a lot of personalization so gender fluidity would fit in perfectly.


Hopefully they add it. If not in this game then they should do it in the next game.

WaffleTaco said:

I'm not sure what you are asking.

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It's okay, Funyarinpa got you covered.

GranddadFreeman said:

Saints Row 2 had a gender slider. If putting in a slider takes months of dev time....

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The dialogue difference between the games though will be massive, including revoicing every line for each pronoun among other things. I'm not knocking it, just observing that I doubt it's as simple as you are making it out to be.

BIGMEANCHIEF said:

In progressive western cultures, it is the school of thought that allows for people to freely choose where they stand on a perceived spectrum of gender. For instance, a woman who may identify with some masculine traits may call herself a non-binary individual.

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Rodjer said:

I'm actually confused, but thanks.

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Don't worry I live in the US and I'm equally confused. I thought we were talking about transgender people so the whole notion of this thread was pointless to me, just pick male or female whichever you want. Easy peasy. But now reading through this thread and I'm way lost. We keep making this stuff more needlessly complicated every few years it seems, so I definitely don't blame a developer especially way out in Poland for not being able to keep up.

Ahasverus said:

I'll tell you why. Because CDPR is the only still pure high profile developer and gamers have become so damn entitled that they're ready to witch Hunt even them for not doing an insignificant thing that won't deermined whether the game is good or not and is probably much more hard to do than it's worth.

Like, you say it's just about switching pronouns automatically. That... Doesn't happen in real life. People WILL react to you changing your genre as you go along. And such, for the fluidity not being window dressing they'll have to implement literal thousands of different reactions to recurrent characters. And calling people "they" is not a thing.

As I said, if they do that, awesome, but if they decide it's not worth the hassle in a game that already offers a never before seen scope, it's totally acceptable and not a reason to call them "regressists" or whatever.

Nice bait tho. Happy pride month, fellow queer.

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I was reading this just to see why it was a perm and made it half way before I knew why.

If any game was prepped and primed for a wider audience, it's Cyberpunk.

I welcome it; however, I don't mandate it.

As long as it fits with the overall storyline and isn't artificially forced. Pandering can be just as insulting as ignorance when it comes to equality issues.

I can only think of a few games that have explored the area of gender expression (Battletech, Sunless Sea, Fallen London, Saint's Row--although I feel like it's more a coincidence for this one; plus there's probably some more I'm unaware of) and it's made them all better games because of it. I hope Cyberpunk, and many other games, make this same choice in the future.

I'm glad Waypoint is asking questions that matter.

Non issue, 99% of the playerbase won't notice, makes no sense to invest time and resources for that.

Derrick01 said:

Don't worry I live in the US and I'm equally confused. I thought we were talking about transgender people so the whole notion of this thread was pointless to me, just pick male or female whichever you want. Easy peasy. But now reading through this thread and I'm way lost. We keep making this stuff more needlessly complicated every few years it seems, so I definitely don't blame a developer especially way out in Poland for not being able to keep up.

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There is actually a really simple to solve the issue. Aside from the Saints Row slider, you can just add an extra prompt in the character creator asking "what pronoun do you want to be called" and then just leave it active throught the game.

Derrick01 said:

Don't worry I live in the US and I'm equally confused. I thought we were talking about transgender people so the whole notion of this thread was pointless to me, just pick male or female whichever you want. Easy peasy. But now reading through this thread and I'm way lost. We keep making this stuff more needlessly complicated every few years it seems, so I definitely don't blame a developer especially way out in Poland for not being able to keep up.

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It's not that hard to keep up though? Google is your friend.

Non-binary gender seems like a pretty relevant topic for a cyberpunk game. It is a good question - I hope they can look to include it in some fashion - if not (like they need to rerecord all the dialogue or something - well, I would not hate them for it.

Pancracio17 said:

There is actually a really simple to solve the issue. Aside from the Saints Row slider, you can just add an extra prompt in the character creator asking "what pronoun do you want to be called" and then just leave it active throught the game.

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That is smart, let us hope they have not recorded all the dialogue or something.

thuGG said:

Non issue, 99% of the playerbase won't notice, makes no sense to invest time and resources for that.

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If we go by that logic, then we shouldn't implement options so that disabled people can play games.

Im not sure I understand. How is this different from putting a gender slider in the game that lots of other games already have?

WaffleTaco said:

If we go by that logic, then we shouldn't implement options so that disabled people can play games.

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You are saying it's the same as ppl not being able to play the game at all really?

Derrick01 said:

Don't worry I live in the US and I'm equally confused. I thought we were talking about transgender people so the whole notion of this thread was pointless to me, just pick male or female whichever you want. Easy peasy. But now reading through this thread and I'm way lost. We keep making this stuff more needlessly complicated every few years it seems, so I definitely don't blame a developer especially way out in Poland for not being able to keep up.

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Sciences move fast.

What if I want to be both genders at once.

WaffleTaco said:

If we go by that logic, then we shouldn't implement options so that disabled people can play games.

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And how many games you see that are implemented in such way that can be played by people with no hands/arms? Yet such people exist. Maybe Waypoint should write an article about that?
This is the same basically.