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Lukar

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,424
for not doing an insignificant thing
Let me stop you right there and just briefly say that it isn't insignificant. If they were able to pull it off, it would mean a lot to people like myself who really want to be represented more (or hell, at all) in games. It matters, and is far from insignificant.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,975
You just see what you want to see. It's funny, apparently the finest details of gun combat must be realistically coded, but god forbid a *slider* for reactions is implemented. Because that's totally soooo hard, lol.

Your kind of thinking is what is holding the genre as a whole back. And I don't even mean that on a social level - your bias doesn't even come into it. What I mean is on a gameplay level. The mere fact that you think *sliders* are too much is the very reason why companies don't bother ever putting any effort into dialogue, and why roleplaying games feel so stale, with so little actual reaction to who you play in them.

We're still dealing with dialogue like we did in 1990 CRPGs. No innovation, no effort. And gamers think *sliders* are too complicated. It's a joke.
With that kind of thinking, FPS games would play like Maze War to this day.
I empathize with you here but the comparisons you're making about the complexity of developing certain features are, uh... well I don't they're grounded. Like they're exaggerated for effect.
Like, making it seem like designing a killcam or making guns pretty is as complex as writing, recording, and implementing a huge script in a game that takes choice and consequence into account. I personally don't think that's actually the case.
That said, I don't think it'd be impossible for CDPR to implement a slider like Saint's Row did. I just think that "it'd be so easy" shouldn't be the crux of your argument here.
Also, whatcha mean by the bolded? I can see what you mean on some level, but I'm not sure what would really constitute an evolution or innovation in game dialogue today.
 
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Nov 2, 2017
1,881
Den Haag, Netherlands
If you want a slider to work like a gender option works in Far Cry 5, where nobody cares about who you chose, you never see your character, and NPC almost never pronounce "he" and "she" because recording different voicelines costs too much in a big game, then okay. But I highly doubt that CDPR are doing it like this, otherwise they would've create a character like Geralt.

CDPR are not as rich as EA for example, they can't afford a game with gigantic budget. If you want an option like this Anthem is a much better choice than this.
They're already doing he and she lines, just add a they line. It's a lot better than nothing and minimal effort. I don't think "don't play the game" is an ideal option for customers.
 

BDubsLegend

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
1,027
I mean, the article's not being paticularly disparaging towards them, just requesting the feature if possible. Making it clear there is a demand for increased representation is an importnat first step towards artists choosing to make games regarding it.
Well phrases like "won't commit" are negative and implied someone or something is avoiding responsibility or explanation.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
I take it representation doesn't matter to you whatsoever and the majority groups are all that need to be seen i.e. keep the status quo.

Even though representation and inclusiveness makes good business sense as you increase your customer reach. Hollywood is starting to figure this out, as well as certain publishers in the videogame industry.

It's funny how replies like that continually pop up in response to people wanting more gender or race/nationality options, but you never see anyone get that indignant over people asking for arms that transform into laser rifles, character classes or flying cars

"Man, I hope they have a weapons dealer class"

"[closes eyes, points index finger upward] If devs were to cater to every single character class from every pen & paper RPGs they'll never stop working, ever"
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
I'll tell you why. Because CDPR is the only still pure high profile developer and gamers have become so damn entitled that they're ready to witch Hunt even them for not doing an insignificant thing that won't deermined whether the game is good or not and is probably much more hard to do than it's worth.

Like, you say it's just about switching pronouns automatically. That... Doesn't happen in real life. People WILL react to you changing your genre as you go along. And such, for the fluidity not being window dressing they'll have to implement literal thousands of different reactions to recurrent characters. And calling people "they" is not a thing.

"pure high profile developer"
"Witch hunt"
"entitled"
"insignificant thing"
"And calling people "they" is not a thing."

You're showing your true colors nicely there. This reads like an angry comment on an Anita Sarkeesian video, even using the same vocabulary. Yes, yes, a critical comment on a game is a witch hunt now, sure. What is it with gamers freaking out at even the tiniest criticism or suggestion?

I'm sorry but this is reaching hard. That scene has more then just the female harvest indiduval in view, it his many other bodies both genders in plainview. Plus both genders will be present as openly as possible. Don't understand how, that ONE mission translates into "them using cyberpunk as an aesthetic". When it's apart of the 2020 world system.

That scene is just one example of their failures in understanding Cyberpunk. Not for the nudity, but for the comments on augmentation vs humanity. It's a teenage boy level understanding of Cyberpunk as a genre, which is rather sad to have.
The comments by them on this topic here just keep piling onto that. I really hope the actual game is better than that. It's starting to look pretty bad - and as my posting history shows, I was quite excited for it, since I love cyberpunk.
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,881
Den Haag, Netherlands
you're making it seem like designing a killcam or making guns pretty is as complex as writing, recording, and implementing a huge script in a game that takes choice and consequence into account. And I don't think that's actually the case.

Designing a killcam is way harder than asking the voice actors to do a "they" take for the same line.

Well phrases like "won't commit" are negative and implied someone or something is avoiding responsibility or explanation.
Are you tone-policing Patrick's take on "we're thinking about it" lol?
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
What do you mean by 'pure'?



In a world where everyone is interconnected and know about each other's profile instantly, it can be that simple. Nobody is asking them to write thousands of new dialogue lines for reactions to shifting pronouns.



Nobody is saying that. It's thematically appropriate, it's good for the game, the company, and the players that more representative RPGs are out in the mainstream. You're building up a strawman to knock down without engaging what Klepek is saying.

How is it thematically appropriate? because as far as i know gender fluidity is far different than main core theme of cyberpunk. Which isn't gender or non gender specifc it's about the grey area of humanity and how far it can be pushed. With a ten ton gorilla sitting on your chest, as you decide how far you will or not to survive or simple fit in.


Unless holistic body modifications alludes to being fluid with one sexual identity. Which seems more a role play type scenario within a game, as you play. Instead of an outright option.
 
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Kongroo

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
2,949
Ottawa, Ontario, CA
I think this is a feature a lot of people would like to see but many are dismissive towards the work it would take to implement. Backseat game design is a lot easier than the real thing.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
Would be a great inclusion and make perfect sense given the setting. More RPing options the better too if they implemented it in a meaningful and reflective manner in interactions.

Complaining that this is too niche because of real world demographics is a fucking joke because niche options are at least half of what makes any RPG worth its salt great. A multitude of options and routes that most players never see are what make these games great.

If devs only focused on what content people actually played we wouldn't have RPGs, we'd just have Action Adventure games.
 

Maddness

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
490
You just see what you want to see. It's funny, apparently the finest details of gun combat must be realistically coded, but god forbid a *slider* for reactions is implemented. Because that's totally soooo hard, lol.

Your kind of thinking is what is holding the genre as a whole back. And I don't even mean that on a social level - your bias doesn't even come into it. What I mean is on a gameplay level. The mere fact that you think *sliders* are too much is the very reason why companies don't bother ever putting any effort into dialogue, and why roleplaying games feel so stale, with so little actual reaction to who you play in them.

We're still dealing with dialogue like we did in 1990 CRPGs. No innovation, no effort. And gamers think *sliders* are too complicated. It's a joke.
With that kind of thinking, FPS games would play like Maze War to this day.




Why not? Why can't people ask for what they want in games? It's weird, I don't see you do this for other things gamers keep demanding, such as, say, 60 FPS (which affects me way less than more character variety would). Seems this kind of response only happens with very specific topics.

Wonder why.


Are you arguing that developers put time and effort into things like 60fps and gun mechanics that it's disingenuous to think they can't put that same amount of effort into a gender slider or are you just saying it's an easy thing to implement? If it's the first part, I agree. If it's the second I disagree and it would take a lot of effort in an open world game to add it and make it effective (dialogue, voice acting, scripting, etc.)

That said, even knowing that it would be an effort to add into the game I think it would help them in the long run because they'd be releasing one of the most inclusive games made and it would definitely push them to the forefront of equality. I would hope they'd really consider it. Here's hoping they do and it spring boards more developers into doing it as well for their games. Everyone should get the chance to play as whom they want to play.
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,881
Den Haag, Netherlands
How is it thematically appropriate? because as far as i know gender fluidity is far different than main core theme of cyberpunk. Which isn't gender or non gender specifc it's about the grey area of humanity and how far it can be pushed. With ten ton gorillasitting on your chest, how far you will or not go to survive or simple fit in.

Exactly. The idea of gender expression being binary when literally everything else about humanity is being brought into question seems extremely anachronistic. In a world where you can take off your entire face and affix lights onto it, why would the acceptance of different pronouns be so hard?
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
Were they gender options or sex options... there is a difference... a difference I don't trust waypoint with.

Sex is 99% binary. Gender not so much.
 

BDubsLegend

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
1,027
Designing a killcam is way harder than asking the voice actors to do a "they" take for the same line.


Are you tone-policing Patrick's take on "we're thinking about it" lol?
No I'm simply stating that Patrick's titles tend to be more inflammatory than the content of his articles. For example the "David Cage hates women" was less about the man himself and more about the shitty tropes he uses when writing his games. "David Cage has a pattern of using tropes harmful to women" is not as exciting huh? Same here "I asked Cdproject about possible gender fluid options in cyperpunk" doesn't have the same bite does it? That's really what the article is about though.
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
Exactly. The idea of gender expression being binary when literally everything else about humanity is being brought into question seems extremely anachronistic. In a world where you can take off your entire face and affix lights onto it, why would the acceptance of different pronouns be so hard?
How do you record dialog for every pronoun? There are dozens of commonly used pro nouns.
 

BDubsLegend

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
1,027
Designing a killcam is way harder than asking the voice actors to do a "they" take for the same line.


Are you tone-policing Patrick's take on "we're thinking about it" lol?
No I'm simply stating that Patrick's titles tend to be more inflammatory than the content of his articles. For example the "David Cage hates women" was less about the man himself and more about the shitty tropes he uses when writing his games. "David Cage has a pattern of using tropes harmful to women" is not as exciting huh? Same here "I asked Cdproject about possible gender fluid options in cyperpunk" doesn't have the same bite does it? That's really what the article is about though.
 

TinfoilHatsROn

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,119
It's funny how replies like that continually pop up in response to people wanting more gender or race/nationality options, but you never see anyone get that indignant over people asking for arms that transform into laser rifles, character classes or flying cars

"Man, I hope they have a weapons dealer class"

"[closes eyes, points index finger upward] If devs were to cater to every single character class from every pen & paper RPGs they'll never stop working, ever"
Curious, it is. Almost like they have an agenda of some sort.
 

stan423321

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,676
What languages is C2077 voiced in, and how would you react if such a feature would be language locked?
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
If devs were to cater to every single human characteristic in RPGs they'll never stop working, ever.

Is it worth it to add months of work and millions of euros for a preference of 0.05% of the world's population, let alone the VG market? Probably not.

It's time to accept there are compromises to be made.
Um in a game where you create your own character it really shouldn't be hard to include more than just the gender binary. By that moto should we just limit character creations to just male, I mean are females worth putting the extra work in for? (hint they are, just like the rest of the LGBTQ community are).
 
Nov 2, 2017
1,881
Den Haag, Netherlands
No I'm simply stating that Patrick's titles tend to be more inflammatory than the content of his articles. For example the "David Cage hates women" was less about the man himself and more about the shitty tropes he uses when writing his games. "David Cage has a pattern of using tropes harmful to women" is not as exciting huh? Same here "I asked Cdproject about possible gender fluid options in cyperpunk" doesn't have the same bite does it? That's really what the article is about though.
Don't think they're comparable. "We're thinking about it" is classic non-commitment. Haven't you ever said "let me think about it" to a request?
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,545
No I'm simply stating that Patrick's titles tend to be more inflammatory than the content of his articles. For example the "David Cage hates women" was less about the man himself and more about the shitty tropes he uses when writing his games. "David Cage has a pattern of using tropes harmful to women" is not as exciting huh? Same here "I asked Cdproject about possible gender fluid options in cyperpunk" doesn't have the same bite does it? That's really what the article is about though.

Are you talking about this article?

The headline in this Cyberpunk-article literally describes 100% what the article itself says. It's the exact opposite of clickbait of inflammatory.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
you know this would actually be a pretty good fit for a cyberpunk game that has already deals heavily with identity and body modification

just rip off Saints Row's gender slider

Strange how that little slider comes off as so progressive
They literally went, "eh gender is a spectrum lol"

Would be interesting if they did that and you could decide on what side of the scale you wanted to be
That said, I would rather they have two distinct bodies for V and then in the game itself you can modify with makeup or extra bits
Imagine purchasing a surgery that makes your face look more feminine or something.

edit:

But seriously we need people to actually describe what they want as opposed to a vague notion of gender fluidity
 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,505
It is weird that Waypoints first instinct for inclusivity was gender fluidity when the shift to the FPS genre has far greater implications for the disabled community. The Witcher 3 was great because it still had the standard suite of dev cheats to make the action parts easier for people that aren't able to play action games. I would love if Cyberpunk would expanded on this and just ripped off Naughty Dog and their accessibility options. Maybe then we can talk about the more bourgy narrative inclusivity.
 

hotcyder

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,861
How or what would even be done to make this a thing?

Removing the Binary Male or Female option would be a start

Then it'd be a matter of given the player a average base model and you'd push sliders towards certain masculine or feminine traits. I imagine it'd change a variable that would drive what pronouns other characters use (if they even need to).
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
Cyperpunk futures would definitely have gender fluid characters. I wonder if there's a way for CDPR to add this to the game without adding tons of work for the team, though
 

Araujo

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,196
If they do it, fine. Cool. Im all for it.

But if they decide not to, that's ok too. If it's to be done well, then it's not as simple as adding a slider. If they don't have the resources or time to add that in, im not going to see it as some sort of social political commentary... it is still a RPG with a lot of options and freedom from everything i've seen it so far in the media, so, that's fine. Games don't have to do EVERYTHING at once, they just have to do what they promise to do well.
 

BDubsLegend

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
1,027
H
Are you talking about this article?

The headline in this Cyberpunk-article literally describes 100% what the article itself says. It's the exact opposite of clickbait of imflammatory.
Huh my mistake. That article wasn't even written by Patrick. Well my point about the title of this article stands. I still don't agree with the title of the kotaku article but that's off topic.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
That scene is just one example of their failures in understanding Cyberpunk. Not for the nudity, but for the comments on augmentation vs humanity. It's a teenage boy level understanding of Cyberpunk as a genre, which is rather sad to have.
The comments by them on this topic here just keep piling onto that. I really hope the actual game is better than that. It's starting to look pretty bad - and as my posting history shows, I was quite excited for it, since I love cyberpunk.

So ones dev understanding of the augment vs humanity argument within the context of cyberpunk 2020 and his particular view on it. Now taints everything else, that could potential be in the game about? that not how the process works and the woman in the tube isn't an example.

But because you think that (subjectivitly) his viewpoint was a teenage level understanding of a genre, a genre that deals with the core subject matters, in many different ways.

Since there isnt just one aspect of the augmentation vs humanity spectrum. As there isn't one holistic agurment that dictates a right answer or wrong anwer.

Especially, when the scene in question was more about (since we dont know the full game ) juxta-position between human worth versus the label of just being high end parts to harvesters and that even being apart of the elite.

Her not having full coverage -even as one of those people- with health insurance with access to services like trauma team. Stil isnt enough to save her life. Which is more the point but still i don't think one persons viewpoint on it decides if the rest of the game will follow suit, given how many people are working on it and how they design quests with teams.
 
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SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
Removing the Binary Male or Female option would be a start

Then it'd be a matter of given the player a average base model and you'd push sliders towards certain masculine or feminine traits. I imagine it'd change a variable that would drive what pronouns other characters use (if they even need to).

I'd imagine animations are easier when you have distinct models to work with especially in a first person game
Plus your binary male female is more so your biological sex. Now if the men can only be rugged and grizzled, THEN you would have an argument
 

a Question

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,218
I have 2 questions.

Q1 how much localization plays into game development? Like withcer supported a lot of languages. And let me tell you the solution of "Just change he/she with they or change one pronoun" wont fly with Russian language for example.

Q2 If I'm a male and want game world to perceive me as female isnt it just same as choosing female protagonist?
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,338
That scene is just one example of their failures in understanding Cyberpunk. Not for the nudity, but for the comments on augmentation vs humanity. It's a teenage boy level understanding of Cyberpunk as a genre, which is rather sad to have.
The comments by them on this topic here just keep piling onto that. I really hope the actual game is better than that. It's starting to look pretty bad - and as my posting history shows, I was quite excited for it, since I love cyberpunk.
This sounds just absurd. We've basically seen nothing of the game, and just because they haven't decided yet if there will be something like gender fluidity, they have chosen Cyberpunk just for its aesthetic? How many cyberpunk games are there where you can make a genderfluid character if this is apparently such a hallmark of the the setting?
 
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Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,545
H

Huh my mistake. That article wasn't even written by Patrick. Well my point about the title of this article stands. I still don't agree with the title of the kotaku article but that's off topic.

It wasn't the right title, the right outlet or the right author. You basically invented something out of nowhere to make your point about Patrick, which kiiiiinnda indicates to me that you seem to hold a grudge more than having any real grievances. Again: This article consists of an interview where CD Projekt don't want to commit to confiming Gender-Fluidity and then a contextualisation of that discussion. The headline is an excact description of what the article is about.
 
Nov 3, 2017
250
User banned (1 week): disingenuous arguments/trolling about representation, accumulated infractions
Where do we draw the line? Are we going to he a slider for tomb Raider? How about Uncharted? Why do CDPR have to implement this and not others?
 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,505
Are you seriously calling gender options bourgeois? Jesus wept these shit takes.
In comparison to people not physically being able to play the game their are. I just find it funny that you look at an action game and your first thought to bring more people in is non binary genders. I just think at this point a complete re-scripting of the narrative including voice recording is very difficult. Adding an aimbot isn't comparatively. If we are just talking about token support like a slider in the character creator and a pronoun selector it's another story but that comes with its own problems.

At the end of the day it's a resource problem and I personally would rather help people to play the game at all than enrich the narrative for some. You are welcome to disagree.
 

Deleted member 11926

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,545
Fucking hell. Let devs do what they want to do. And if someone happens to be insulted somehow (there will always be people who have enough time to be insulted by something), then just don't buy the product.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,653
Considering the setting, yeah, this is a good question to ask. Cyberpunk commonly deals with themes of transhumanism and human identity, and sexuality and gender identity is part of those themes. When you're working with a genre where technology is so advanced and common that basically anyone can modify their body to such radical extremes, it feels like a huge missed opportunity if they don't include it.
 

BDubsLegend

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
1,027
It wasn't the right title, the right outlet or the right author. You basically invented something out of nowhere to make your point about Patrick, which kiiiiinnda indicates to me that you seem to hold a grudge more than having any real grievances. Again: This article consists of an interview where CD Projekt don't want to commit to confiming Gender-Fluidity and then a contextualisation of that discussion. The headline is an excact description of what the article is about.
Woah I made a mistake, which I noted, and now you're reaching. Why do I have to have a grudge? Why can't I just disagree? Why does there always have to be a conspiracy?
 
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