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Detroit: Become Human - The Worst Race Allegory [Mother's Basement]
- Thread starter Don Fluffles
- Start date
I will never trust anyone that criticizes with absolute statements. I'll pass on this video.
So this is slightly off topic, but why did Markus have to go get paint? Couldn't Carl have gotten the paint delivered somehow? I doubt Amazon doesn't exist 20 years from now, and even if this paint was some how local only, why isn't it being delivered by a store owned Android or a drone or something?
Maybe QD just needed a reason to get Markus out of the house, but to me that lack of world building is kind of lame.
The same cutscene snippet is used if you attack the police and fail which prompts Markus to grab a gun critically wounded. He can then commit suicide or get shot like in the screenshot. Just a small design oversight from re-using that cutscene
It's obviously world building/introduction to his character. If you need a narrative excuse the most sensible one is that Markus enjoys spending time outside. Criticizing that aspect is like a CinemaSins nitpick.
This post really sounds like the more general equivalent of "Only the Sith deal in absolutes!"
That definitely harms his narrative as it essentially says that, if it weren't for the typical white hipster philosophy-loving sci-fi CEO Kamski. Markus would never have been able to even start his revolution/protest. It's a byproduct of the video's end point on that obscure ending where it's revealed Cyberlife and Kamski orchestrated the whole thing.
Indeed. The sad thing is we are so full of cynical critics without talent that love to tear into things half-assed like this video. And then of course emotional children agree just to agree by the dozen. Cage is not the best writer EVER, but Detroit is improved over previous efforts logically and technically.
"Emotional children"
Lmao
Surely you can provide a rebuttal to some of the other examples in the 20 something minute video. Shouldn't be hard given that those agreeing are just emotional children.
We'll wait.
Wow I thought this thread more or less died but we're back to delivering
I watched 5 minutes of the video. Guy sounds like angry cynical hipster tm.
I'm not listening to 25 minutes of this dude. Cage is French, and has a good not great grasp of English and American history, themes, etc. He is getting better at what he does, and the video doesn't seem very constructive.
You wanna try that again but this time withholding the unnecessary insult?
If he desn't have a good grasp on American history he shouldn't make a game that liberally references it.
User Warned: Drive-by. Low effort participation.
Keep waiting. I'm on mobile and this thread is already boring me. I wasn't under the impression I signed a contract to waste my time. Have a nice day.
I didn't say everyone that agrees with the video is wrong. I said emotional children often line up to hate just because... especially Cage, who seems to be trying his best as a native French writer in English.
Lol okay
Typically when engaging in a discussion thread, you actually want to do the "engage in a discussion" bit.
And not just drive by shit post. But you do you.
It wasn't a shitpost. I don't like the tone of the video. I said Cage is an average to good writer. He deserves criticism, but this video is edgy trash to me. Deal with it. I'm not here to engage you personally.
As an English grad and poet, it's easy to be harsh on bad writing. It's everywhere. Detroit is better than previous efforts. I would not call him a hack, just someone struggling to master English. Like a lot of people in art and games.
Didn't you just say that you don't trust people who deal in absolutes and hyperbole?
Imagine working so hard to stan David Cage of all people! LMFAOOOOOOO
I'm not asking you to engage me. I'm asking you to engage and discuss the video. If you can't do that, why are you even in this thread?
The video raises a lot of good points. You've barely seen it but call it edgy trash instead of offering any rebuttals but your opinion of Cage.
So.... drive by shit posts.
It's fucking odd! I love this forum because it doesn't tolerate a lot of bullshit like other parts of the internet does but whenever Cage engages puts out a new game that has a lot of weird racist and sexist undertones there is a lot of people defending him. What about David Cage that makes people so inclined to coddle him?
Yes, Detroit is much better than the rest of his games but there is still a lot of blatant writing problems.
Not even the android throwing out bottles? Michigan has a 97% recycling rate on them. And it's actually illegal to throw out containers with a deposit. Androids shouldn't be breaking the law.
Cage continues to be a hack!
That's not exactly setting the bar high, haha.
I love how there is an undying David Cage bash force who stops responding when you refute their arguments with evidence directly from the game or proceeds to post the same argument again right after. It very much goes both ways
I told you. He offers little constructive feedback, in general his voice is annoying, and he basically had nothing good to say about anything. I don't disagree that Cage needs help being more subtle, but in general again I can't do emotional youtubers that present themselves like this.
Maybe with the apocalyptic levels of climate change going on just off-screen everyone just gave up and went full-nihilistic? I mean, that would explain why the 40% unemployment rate, Russia-US tensions, dead bees, vlogger-as-president and plummeting birth rates don't seem to phase anyone at all throughout the game.
...either that or Quantic Dream put in a bunch of "possible future events" without thinking of the insanely massive global consequences they would have.
Not a lot of refutation for this video though or most of the points it raises. Just a couple of things here and there.
Funny how some of the other folks who were defending it in the Sony first party thread haven't shown up. Guess it's harder when it's not me alone anymore against an insulated thread.
He actually did have some good things to say. But of course, you didn't watch the whole video.
I mean, maybe people aren't responding to you because all your arguments seem to be the same old "it makes sense in game so you can't criticise it," rhetoric, some of which isn't even based in fact but your view that being nice to your slaves means you're not a slave owner (because, even though you say so, the game never portrays Markus as anything but a slave).
Who are all these imaginary people that think Cage is a great writer? I'm pretty sure some people just enjoy the overall game itself
For me this could be a ten minute video. We all know Cage is not Orwell. I'd rather more exposition be spent on saying anything good about the story besides two actors that apparently Cage just wandered into. Come on man this guy clearly has a hate boner, Cage directly worked with these actors and you can't even give him credit for THAT? BS.
I don't disagree with some points. Other minor story nitpicks just pad the video.
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I have no problem criticizing David Cage, dude is a hell of a director, but far from a great writer. However, there's also an overwhelming amount of people who 100% dismiss anything as soon as David Cage's name pops up.
The guy has never written a good game so I don't know why that's a bad thing.
The only defense I'll give him is that he has good ideas for interactive narrative fiction and his "game over is a failure of game design" statement is woefully taken out of context.
That's where we will have to disagree. He has issues definitely, and I didn't care for Beyond, but I liked Heavy Rain well enough and I loved Detroit.
Opinions and all
Please stop quoting my posts out of context. I was clearly responding to a victimized david cage hater that felt in previous threads the bad people were defending him.
Cage to me has never written a great game, but in gaming that is hardly much of a sin. I agree with you parts of hr and detroit are very good and people hate too much sometimes.
If you're French, and you don't have a good grasp of American history and themes, then either do some damn research, or don't make a game about a robot civil rights movement set in an American city using American civil rights imagery.
Nobody forced David Cage to make this specific game.
The only well written thing he has ever done is "The Dark Sorcerer". You know why that shit works? Because it is just comedy and I think he is maybe decent in that field rather politics. Once again, he and his team have proven how garbage they can be.
The only saving grace in Detroit: Become Human are the Connor parts, let's be real. Because it is just straight up cop drama, which gets bad too when it mixes up with the other story lines.
The only saving grace in Detroit: Become Human are the Connor parts, let's be real. Because it is just straight up cop drama, which gets bad too when it mixes up with the other story lines.
"Blade Runner except the androids are the good guys"!?
Holy shit the term hack gets tossed around too much sometimes but Cage is a hack.
The Department Of Video Game Premises unfortunately assigned Quantic Dream a charged American sci fi racial allegory and here we are.
They were hoping to get assigned a story about a puppy and a bee who fight tooth decay through the power of friendship.
Holy shit the term hack gets tossed around too much sometimes but Cage is a hack.
The Department Of Video Game Premises unfortunately assigned Quantic Dream a charged American sci fi racial allegory and here we are.
They were hoping to get assigned a story about a puppy and a bee who fight tooth decay through the power of friendship.
I'm not going to disagree with you, but at least he is challenging himself and getting better. Writing for games and graphics is not easy.
I wasn't expecting much from a French guy trying to tell a story that had very clear similarities to America's treatment of black & brown in this country. Every point the video hits is just spot on.
None of this makes him free to create without criticism. If he made a work that is an injustice to the history and themes its related to, regardless of whether he's overly familiar with them, it's something that is valid to criticize him for. The fact of the matter is that when every bit of the game is related to the history of racism and slavery, and it does that poorly, and when most of the game's value is in its story itself it is fair to say it's a poorly made game regardless of his nation of origin or his education on the issues he presents.
The issue is more constructive criticism than anything else. This guy's opinion isn't a standard. People can feel differently on many topics. Everyone wants Cage to be some kind of high-tier novelist it seems. It's not going to happen, and almost no other writer in the industry is held to this revealing of light. Writing in general in games has just crossed the b-tier in the better games. We have a long way to go. Detroit doesn't always succeed, but it certainly has its moments.
The video is mean but it is also constructive. It points out why the various themes Cage uses don't work; specifically it goes into why shoehorning androids into racial politics is silly.
And there are plenty of game leads who are held to higher standards in their writing and succeed mostly, examples like Avellone, Yoko Taro, John Gonzalez, Amy Hennig, Neil Druckmann, Kojima, etc.
Cage gets called out because he doesn't understand Blade Runner.
Those people mentioned are few in number. Kojima of all the so-called hacks isn't much better for subtlety. I also disagree this overall is a constructive video. Not even close. He can' t even give Cage credit for his actors.
Why would he do that?
Hell from what I've read up on a lot of the best dialogue in the game was improvised by the actors and Cage fought them over it.
As someone without a dog in the fight this video is well written and delivers his points with great examples. I didn't watch earlier because I thought I might play but this video kinda seals the deal. People trying to dismiss it like some Jim Sterling level chaff are letting their fanboy get in the way of the truth. Like he said you can still enjoy the game personally but the game still fails to give important subject matter the proper weight they deserve.