Let's talk about playable heterosexual women in games lacking romantic agency

Deleted member 11018 · Jun 20, 2018

I usually can romance whoever i want in RPGs ever since Baldure's Gate... so it's not been too much of a problem for me, there's always a RPG to fallback to if i want that kind of interactions. (and my Women main characters are as badass as badass can be...)

Servbot24 · Jun 20, 2018

Transistor said:
Chloe was the main character of Uncharted: The Lost Legacy. I can't remember if there's any reference to Morgan's sexuality if you rolled female in Prey Granted, neither of these have romance options....

However, I don't think the games need romances just because

EDIT: Completely forgot about Morgan's LGBT relationship. It's been a long while since I played it.

Notice that when Chloe is the playable character she does not pursue a love interest, but when she's a side character she does.

CenturionNami · Jun 20, 2018

Wishing gay woman were straight is fucking disgusting op.

Ferrs · Jun 20, 2018

AAK said:
Why does Aloy need to have sex like Geralt and what does her going into bed with male character add to her character?

Why not? you're not giving any reason, men can, women can't. Why? There's really no difference between both. If male players can play as a male romancing girls, I dunno why it can be done otherwise.

headspawn · Jun 20, 2018

danmaku said:
Meh, it's an open world game. She has time to help random people with their problems but she has no time to find a boyfriend? I actually expected to see a romance quest sooner or later but it never happened.

I thought for sure there was going to be something, especially considering she'd been cut off from tribes away from any possible relationship for forever basically then is tossed into smorgasbord of attractive men and women and she didn't even flinch. Not even focus, her character reception is just pure oblivious incarnate.

Maybe it's more that she's just a really terrible character because that fits the description for pretty much anything else about her.

I honestly wondered if she was just originally written as a Male and then they changed it towards the end of dev and just neglected as character aspects.

Gustaf · Jun 20, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Wishing gay woman were straight is fucking disgusting op.

thats not the point of the thread at all

Deleted member 249 · Jun 20, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Wishing gay woman were straight is fucking disgusting op.

What? What is it with the strawmen being propped up in this thread?

Nikus · Jun 20, 2018

lol @ the defensive replies. Not surprising.

One of the issues is that there's only men directing big games. That's the same explanation for the trend of Daddy heroes we're seeing currently. The industry needs more women in charge, same as in movies.

N.Domixis · Jun 20, 2018

Doesn't this have to do with the way it's always the man going out looking for dates instead of the other way around? I don't date and never have or will but that's what it looks like from someone on the outside. Maybe I'm wrong.

Deleted member 16876 · Jun 20, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Wishing gay woman were straight is fucking disgusting op.

But this is not what they are saying.

FluxWaveZ · Jun 20, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Wishing gay woman were straight is fucking disgusting op.

...What.

Some of these replies are really disingenuous and strange.

RedSwirl · Jun 20, 2018

The first page of this thread made me realize most playable heterosexual female characters might actually be in Japanese games (and perhaps BioWare games).

Smoolio · Jun 20, 2018

I will never argue for an only straight option vs choice of straight or gay.

Considering the overall failure of representation across all media.

But definitely a lot of female protagonist games with no romance could certainly have a straight romance.

Smash Kirby · Jun 20, 2018

I'm pretty sure that Samus is asexual, in terms of preferences, at least as to how she was portrayed in the games. Then again she isn't interested in that sort of thing.

Deleted member 11413 · Jun 20, 2018

hibikase said:
I know that, but if you start claiming that a character is incomplete because they show no romantic interest you are one step away from saying that the Bechtel test is wrong.

You are missing the point. The problem is a meta one, as in it exists as a trend across the industry as opposed to any one particular game. No, there is nothing wrong with any specific game not including romance. There is a problem when mainstream games are clearly avoiding to portray a certain type of romance in order to appeal to the sensibilities of one segment of the audience.

8byte · Jun 20, 2018

CannonFodder52 said:
Outrage culture...

The reason why most straight women you play as in games are essentially asexual is pretty unideal.

We don't need to enforce their love interests. We absolutely should pay attention to HOW they are represented in games (objects, hyper sexualization, etc), or them being portrayed as hyper sexualized lesbian fantasy, but saying there aren't enough heterosexual women who are fawning over men? Get out. That's absolutely stupid.

And yes, I absolutely did say "outrage culture", because it's essentially finding enough key examples to validate your positions of outrage just for the sake of doing it. This is not a problem in gaming, it's really not a problem anywhere. Women in video games can exist without having a love interest, particularly if it necessitates them being in love with men.

Era of not Yakuza · Jun 20, 2018

Someone said that devs avoid this because the male player feels unconfortible when the character seeks relationship with a man

Xita · Jun 20, 2018

I really don't like threads like these because they sort of imply that there's tons of games with lesbian main characters out there.

There's not.

tyfon · Jun 20, 2018

In Disgaea 5 (did I spell that right?), Seraphina seems to have male interests in spades.
Seems to have a mind and tongue of a 14 year old though so I don't know..

Kuro · Jun 20, 2018

Phantom Thief said:
Depending on the kiss, their dynamic becomes romantic from there on.

I disagree. i don't think Max and Chloe are "hella" gay, nor do I think the idea should have been raised at all

The very concept of a lesbian romance is titillating to the average male gamer, especially how most games handle it, and Life is Strange doesn't necessarily handle the first kiss with any subtlety. The kiss exists for literally no reason than to be there, there's no lead up to it, no development, no context or justification in the moment

I never said anything about TLOU2, my post was very specifically talking about LiS

Then we come back to the problem of gaming as a medium lacking good representation of female led heterosexual romances

I'm getting mixed messages from this post. You're saying lesbians are titillating by default? You're also saying that Max and Chloe kissing needed justification? I can understand OPs post about wanting more female led games having male romantic interests but is it really necessary to say that Life is Strange had fetishized "forced" lesbianism?

saenima · Jun 20, 2018

There are literally hundreds or even thousands of games where a straight male protagonist either is or was in, or pursues a relationship although it has literally nothing to do with the story or the setting or the gameplay. From Uncharted to most Assassin's Creed to Gears of War to Mario to fucking Inversion to motherfucking Ride to Hell. It's the default trope and it pervades every genre and budget in gaming. But a straight woman protagonist? That's just pandering and Aloy has no time for that shit.

lulz

Kamagii · Jun 20, 2018

I still can't wrap my head around why this is a thing. I guess it is warranted because people do not feel represented? I play mostly create your character games( ie bloodborne/division/fallout ) and albeit being a hetero male I always make my character a female of colored(ie Asian/African American or Latin American) decent so the whole topic is interesting.

Nikus · Jun 20, 2018

CenturionNami said:
Wishing gay woman were straight is fucking disgusting op.

Hydeus said:
What about dwarf? I want to play a homosexuel dwarf as my main character.

If your post starts with "what about..."you know it's bad.

Crossing Eden · Jun 20, 2018

Phantom Thief said:
I disagree. i don't think Max and Chloe are "hella" gay, nor do I think the idea should have been raised at all

Then you weren't paying attention, literally from Episode 1 there's a buildup:

Phantom Thief said:
The very concept of a lesbian romance is titillating

You're projecting.

Life is Strange doesn't necessarily handle the first kiss with any subtlety. The kiss exists for literally no reason than to be there, there's no lead up to it, no development, no context or justification in the moment

The context and justification is that they're homosexuals.

Phantom Thief said:
I never said anything about TLOU2, my post was very specifically talking about LiS

Again, the buildup literally starts from episode 1. And again, even BTS is centered directly around Chloe's romance with Rachel. The series isn't incredibly popular with people who're LBGT for shits and giggles:

FluxWaveZ · Jun 20, 2018

The era of Luigi said:
Someone said that devs avoid this because the male player feels unconfortible when the character seeks relationship with a man

That publisher sentiment is highlighted in the OP.

Gustaf · Jun 20, 2018

The era of Luigi said:
Someone said that devs avoid this because the male player feels unconfortible when the character seeks relationship with a man

fuck no, im kinda fed up because bayo wont admit her feelings towards luka, like, dont be so tsundere about it, you like the man

Deleted member 11995 · Jun 20, 2018

I'm not feeling the tone of outrage in the op, but that aside yeah, we need a good female lead who has a romantic interest and is straight.

Certain guys need to come to terms with the inclusive nature of gaming as we move forward, and that should also mean being able to handle playing as a girl who kisses a boy *shock horror*

Callibretto said:
Am I crazy thinking that Aloy is kinda into Varl, but in the end Varl flinch and see Aloy more like a goddess and step away.

They were totally into each other. I could see Guerilla building on it in the sequel.

Kirie · Jun 20, 2018

lmcfigs said:
I'm not sure why we don't have that more, but I'm skeptical that it's because people find it icky. Like that's pretty condescending.

At the old place, a similar topic was brought up with some guys in there outright admitting how uncomfortable they'd feel having to romance a dude as a female protagonist, so unfortunately it does happen. :/

hibikase · Jun 20, 2018

RedSwirl said:
The first page of this thread made me realize most playable heterosexual female characters might actually be in Japanese games (and perhaps BioWare games).

Japanese games never exist in those narratives, silly.

HyGogg · Jun 20, 2018

Bjones said:
I think it comes from the thought of moving away from a woman having to have a " man " for any reason.

Yes, there is something toxic about having a woman's actions orbit around men, but not all romance has to be handled this way.

I think letting players exercise some agency over romance options and their character's sexuality is good, though. I don't see that as a missed opportunity per se. It's inherently inclusive.

Ferrs · Jun 20, 2018

8byte said:
We don't need to enforce their love interests. We absolutely should pay attention to HOW they are represented in games (objects, hyper sexualization, etc), or them being portrayed as hyper sexualized lesbian fantasy, but saying there aren't enough heterosexual women who are fawning over men? Get out. That's absolutely stupid.

And yes, I absolutely did say "outrage culture", because it's essentially finding enough key examples to validate your positions of outrage just for the sake of doing it. This is not a problem in gaming, it's really not a problem anywhere. Women in video games can exist without having a love interest, particularly if it necessitates them being in love with men.

But no one said making female characters fawn over men.

Fucks sake you guys don't know what is to actually write a romance?

Nikus · Jun 20, 2018

The era of Luigi said:
Someone said that devs avoid this because the male player feels unconfortible when the character seeks relationship with a man

FluxWaveZ said:
That publisher sentiment is highlighted in the OP.

Yeah it's even the very first thing in the OP...

BDubsLegend · Jun 20, 2018

Honestly this is the next frontier for women in games. A hetero relationship for a female in games has to overcome the stigma of some male players felling awkward about their avatar's kissing men. There also isn't any brownie points,or a chance to defiantly stand up on twitter for putting a hetero relationship in a game. In the most backward way possible, including a hetero relationship would be one of the boldest and unprecedented moves a developer could make. That and making a game about a mother that wasn't tragic.

Xita · Jun 20, 2018

Fury said:
Representation for women in gaming just sucks overall. I'm gay and feel like when I can even play a woman, she's almost always straight... You're absolutely right in that there aren't many games with a straight female protagonist that is actively pursuing a man/men, but I really hope you're not trying to imply that the situation is any better for lesbians.

I grew up playing harvest moon (first as the male-only option, then as a straight woman) and it wasn't until stardew valley that I got the option to be gay. I still don't get the option in Story of Seasons. Fire Emblem has had marriage as a system since the 90s, but gay marriage wasn't a thing until fates. Every single woman whose sexuality is known in the tales games (unless I'm missing something from one of the few I haven't played) is straight. In fact, I can't recall ever playing a character who is canonically a lesbian. All the lesbians I've played have been in RPGs where I could also choose to be straight/bi (Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age). I started The Last of us, but didn't really enjoy it, (and since I barely played it, I'm not even sure if you ever played as ellie in the original).

Exactly this. Add in otome games where all your options are straight (or, if there is a girl option she's "just a friend") and yuri games are made for dudes and us lesbian gamers are shit out of luck most of the time.

Deleted member 5621 · Jun 20, 2018

DJ Lushious said:
You also don't need a character to have a romantic interest/relationship as a subcontext of a narrative, either.

But if most female characters in a medium are either lesbians or asexual, there is something going on. And that ignores the multiple points raised by the OP, that Dontnod wasn't allowed by publishers to make Remember Me's protagonist have straight relationships and Dishonored 2's having to erase the fact Emily's lover is a man.

Nobody in the thread is saying "put relationships in every game" or "make female playable characters have sex with male characters".

Trigonometrize · Jun 20, 2018

hibikase said:
I know that, but if you start claiming that a character is incomplete because they show no romantic interest you are one step away from saying that the Bechtel test is wrong.

Maybe the test is wrong? The test is designed to show the dearth of examples of two women being able to be the same room together and talk about something other then men. If the current problem facing representation in games is something else entirely, then who cares about Bechdel test?

IfSleepoversCouldTalk · Jun 20, 2018

I really don't care
Like, queer people get so little representation as is that you're either being transparent as fuck OP or wildly poorly timed this thread
Like seriously, as a queer woman I love seeing so much representation so, sorry? We play games too.
I have very little sympathy for straight people of all groups complaining about representation lmao

Kinthey · Jun 20, 2018

Ferrs said:
Why not? you're not giving any reason, men can, women can't. Why? There's really no difference between both. If male players can play as a male romancing girls, I dunno why it can be done otherwise.

If Aloy could plough through Horizon like Geralt I wouldn't be surprised if there would be complaints that she's too sexualized.

Rayne · Jun 20, 2018

saenima said:
There are literally hundreds or even thousands of games where a straight male protagonist either is or was in, or pursues a relationship although it has literally nothing to do with the story or the setting or the gameplay. From Uncharted to most Assassin's Creed to Gears of War to Mario to fucking Inversion to motherfucking Ride to Hell. It's the default trope and it pervades every genre and budget in gaming. But a straight woman protagonist? That's just pandering and Aloy has no time for that shit.

lulz

It's hilarious.

Detroit Become Human shipping spoilers following

Like become detroit actually got me with this because Luther would've been a natural fit for an LI for Kara yet nothing happens. Meanwhile Pacifist Markus and North get together despite being the most forced shit ever.

Kain-Nosgoth · Jun 20, 2018

while i don't care what they do with romance and their character, i don't mind at all who they decide to romance, i'm playing that's all, i'm not putting myself in the shoes of the character unless it's a 100% created one!

i wouldn't know if this is a real problem, but yeah i agree it's really rare to see woman protag getting in a relationship

Dreamboum · Jun 20, 2018

It's not really the lack of heterosexual women that is the issue, right ? It's that there is no meaningful M/F relationships.

Even then Lara isn't ambiguously coded for example. It's just that the games focuses on the power of friendship instead of spraying sexual innuendos on it.

Mexen · Jun 20, 2018

I remember an old argument for it was essentially this

Most gamers are heterosexual men. Because of this, engaging in a relationship with a male character is going to feel uncomfortable for them. The idea is mass appeal and when the majority is heterosexual males, then don't give them a male romantic/love interest.

It's 2018 and just about anyone games today, regardless of gender and orientation. This calls for proper representation of "minority" characters to give more meaningful experiences to those who would relate strongly to certain interactions with characters.

Personally, I am not uncomfortable with a romancing a man as a female character because I tend to delve deep into the world game creators make. For instance, I'm not a lesbian but I'm honestly looking forward to TLoU II and seeing how that relationship pans out. I played P3P and Akihiko was the character I chose to be "romantic" with.
I'm a black 30 year old man IRL.

It's nice when characters you can relate to are in a video game. And I think that's universal for all kinds of people, not just the aforementioned "straight male majority".

ISOM · Jun 20, 2018

It would make me uncomfortable if my waifu expresses romantic or sexual desire with another man is basically why this is a thing for a female protagonist.

Poodlestrike · Jun 20, 2018

Yeah, it is kind of a blind spot. Knock-on effect of straight men being the ones to make most games, still - having a female protag is one thing, having one kissing dudes is quite another. Hard to argue against more LGBT representation, though. Other than the examples where it's obviously just there to titillate straight guys.

Smash Kirby said:
I'm pretty sure that Samus is asexual, in terms of preferences, at least as to how she was portrayed in the games. Then again she isn't interested in that sort of thing.

I see "so-and-so is ace" tossed around a lot for characters without displayed preference, but honestly, it feels a little bit... well, I just really doubt it. Not having a character romance anybody on screen is very different from actually making them ace, and considering the background of a lot of the devs who made those games, I really doubt they'd go out of their way to make non-heteronormative identity representation.

Death Penalty · Jun 20, 2018

DJ Lushious said:
That's a damned good point and it's important to note if that same reasoning can be applied to most of the other characters OP list.

What's the narrative reason for all the dudes trying to get laid across the multiple video games that depict it?

This "narrative reason" explanation is such a load.

hibikase · Jun 20, 2018

Trigonometrize said:
Maybe the test is wrong? The test is designed to show the dearth of examples of two women being able to be the same room together and talk about something other then men. If the current problem facing representation in games is something else entirely, then who cares about Bechdel test?

I'll concede that I shouldn't have brought up the Bechdel test. I was just annoyed by the idea that a character's sexuality has to be explicit, and the Bechdel test is the first thing that came to mind.

Mattersnotnow · Jun 20, 2018

Valkyrie Profile shows romantic love between the MC and another char. But it's much more of a tragic story akin to Romeo and Juliette and there is no graphical representation that materializes their relationship IIRC

Comic Obsessed · Jun 20, 2018

Gustaf said:
fuck no, im kinda fed up because bayo wont admit her feelings towards luka, like, dont be so tsundere about it, you like the man

Yeaaaaah, I don't think that's ever going to happen considering how much Bayonetta is shipped with you know who.

Deleted member 35011 · Jun 20, 2018

It's a weird thing because LGBT representation is a good thing, but when you look at how on average games seem way more comfortable presenting lesbian relationships than gay or straight from a woman's perspective...

It just gets a little uncomfortable because it feels like the characters and relationships are being designed to avoid "discomfort" for male players who apparently get way too connected to characters.

Vela · Jun 20, 2018

Mattersnotnow said:
Valkyrie Profile shows romantic love between the MC and another char. But it's much more of a tragic story akin to Romeo and Juliette and there is no graphical representation that materializes their relationship IIRC

Yes there is. Both as a cutscene and as a dialogue scene

Let's talk about playable heterosexual women in games lacking romantic agency

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