Let's talk about playable heterosexual women in games lacking romantic agency

Transistor said:

Chloe was the main character of Uncharted: The Lost Legacy. I can't remember if there's any reference to Morgan's sexuality if you rolled female in Prey Granted, neither of these have romance options....

However, I don't think the games need romances just because

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This is untrue, female Morgan has a prior romantic relationship with the Russian engineer woman (I dont remember her name off the top of my head), same as male Morgan. So male Morgan is straight, and female Morgan is presumed to be lesbian or at least bisexual.

I'm sure this was done to save time, that way they didn't have to significantly change dialogs and data logs found in the environment...but in plays into the same trope OP is talking about.

AAK said:

Aloy trying to get laid doesn't make any narrative sense in the context of the plot of the game.

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Does Ellie being gay mean she was trying to get laid? No, it's a story nuance the establishes character and flushes out the interactions between characters. I gotta blame mass effect for its relationship system and sex scenes that every game that has any elements of romance is now thought to have a sex scene.

Characer relationship can be formed and kept without having to include fornication. The OP is saying just that's it's possible to include heterosexual behaviours into storytelling and heroes, that it's almost avoided when comes to playable female characters.

sawatsu said:

Any JRPG without a love interest for the protag is lacking something imo

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Khanimus said:

Why?

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It's cringey to me, and I find other forms of relationships more powerful, like friendship, parenthood and mentor/student.

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How about we talk about lack of age representation in games?

Give me more games with older hardened female leads like Ana from Overwatch.

Am I crazy thinking that Aloy is kinda into Varl, but in the end Varl flinch and see Aloy more like a goddess and step away.

sawatsu said:

Any JRPG without a love interest for the protag is lacking something imo

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Huh why

AAK said:

Aloy trying to get laid doesn't make any narrative sense in the context of the plot of the game.

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DJ Lushious said:

That's a damned good point and it's important to note if that same reasoning can be applied to most of the other characters OP list.

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Lopez said:

Aloy doesn't need or want sex simple as that.

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Uuuuhh, you guys know a character doesn't need to get laid to be portrayed as straight, right?

Aloy not looking for a relationship made sense in terms of the main story as she was very driven in her mission but because it was a openworld with a lot of sidequests I did find it odd she didn't even have a choice to flirt with the idea.

Phantom Thief said:

This was my biggest problem with Dontnod trying to shoehorn a Max and Chloe romance into Life is Strange:

• Why is it impossible to have a strong female lead in games who's not a titillating lesbian fantasy for the male gamer?
• Why is it impossible to have a good and proper representation of two women in games who are just friends, without any sexuality or romance being added for the male gamer's benefit (see again, point 1)
• Why is it impossible to have a strong female heterosexual lead in games, period? Either she is asexual, like Aloy seems to be, or she is at least bisexual.

It's a major issue with games, and Life is Strange, a game I otherwise love, in particular rubbed me the wrong way with how it handled it.

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Was it ever implied that the relationship between Chloe and Max was more than just a good friendship? I mean they can kiss depending on your choice but to me they seemed like best buddies instead of lovers.

Phantom Thief said:

This was my biggest problem with Dontnod trying to shoehorn a Max and Chloe romance into Life is Strange:

• Why is it impossible to have a strong female lead in games who's not a titillating lesbian fantasy for the male gamer?
• Why is it impossible to have a good and proper representation of two women in games who are just friends, without any sexuality or romance being added for the male gamer's benefit (see again, point 1)
• Why is it impossible to have a strong female heterosexual lead in games, period? Either she is asexual, like Aloy seems to be, or she is at least bisexual.

It's a major issue with games, and Life is Strange, a game I otherwise love, in particular rubbed me the wrong way with how it handled it.

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Shoehorn? If anything Max and Chloe are "hella" gay. And where does the game try to titillate? What's titillating about that scene from TLOU2? Also pretty sure Aloy isn't asexual, just that every person romantically interested in her is lame AF.

Gurthang said:

Was it ever implied that the relationship between Chloe and Max was more than just a good friendship?

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Friends don't kiss each other like this.

danmaku said:

Meh, it's an open world game. She has time to help random people with their problems but she has no time to find a boyfriend? I actually expected to see a romance quest sooner or later but it never happened.

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Like I said earlier, those were complementary to her role as a Seeker and the product of her upbringing under Rost. Getting laid isn't complementary to that.

Morrigan said:

Aloy has tons of side-quests and errands for various people. Her meeting people and making friends makes perfect sense, and there's no reason she couldn't have flings or develop relationships. Heterosexual male protagonists have romances, flings, hook-ups etc. in various games, including open-world RPGs (sounds familiar) despite being "on a quest".

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Making friends is completely different from finding a romantic companion, what a strange comparison.

Maybe Aloy in the sequel? It absolutely doesn't make sense for her in Zero Dawn, narratively speaking.

Phantom Thief said:

This was my biggest problem with Dontnod trying to shoehorn a Max and Chloe romance into Life is Strange:

• Why is it impossible to have a strong female lead in games who's not a titillating lesbian fantasy for the male gamer?
• Why is it impossible to have a good and proper representation of two women in games who are just friends, without any sexuality or romance being added for the male gamer's benefit (see again, point 1)
• Why is it impossible to have a strong female heterosexual lead in games, period? Either she is asexual, like Aloy seems to be, or she is at least bisexual.

It's a major issue with games, and Life is Strange, a game I otherwise love, in particular rubbed me the wrong way with how it handled it.

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Partly agree with this, but I highly doubt Ellie+Dina, Ellie+Riley or Max+Chloe were designed to "titillate" male gamers.

I generally agree with the sentiment once said by Amy Hennig that for some reason everything has to be a romance and it is impossible to just write a friendship anymore. That's not how it should be.

I also dislike this "decide your own sexuality, although you have a fixed character" like in Life is Strange. Either make her gay, bi or straight. Don't make everyone "player-sexual". I'd rather have a game that has 2 straight and 1 gay (or the other way around) characters than a game with 3 player-sexual characters.

And yeah, spontaneously I could not think of any non-createyourcharacter game where there is a straight female pc that has romantic interactions with men.

Honestly I don't mind if a playable female character wants or has a relationship heterosexual or otherwise. I mean that makes them more human and shows what they find attractive in a person.

For the same reason men in general (Based on porn search data published, americans are specially guilty of that) love lesbian porn. One, they like their gays when it suits them, and two, they cant really see a woman "having fun" with a man if the man isnt them. Its entirely by design that we dont get heterosexual female protagonists, and the reason is exemplified in that exec quote from the Dontnod article. My hope is that in the same way we didnt get female protagonists in the past (Execs afraid the bigger demographic will reject the product) and now we are getting a lot more (This E3 was awesome in that regard) eventually the publishers and big names realize that there is a market for these kinda chracters too.

i-hate-u said:

How about we talk about lack of age representation in games?

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Feel free to make that thread, but that's not what this topic is about.

Yeah. It's tough to bring up because it's a discussion often paired with the increased visibility of gay/bi women in games, but it's not an either-or situation. A rising tide should lift all ships. (...no pun intended.)

The fact that the new Tomb Raider games ape Uncharted in so many ways, but aren't willing to commit the (historically heterosexual) Lara to a love interest should raise eyebrows.

I am #teamgamesareart. If gaming is an art form. Then we need to concede the notion that player representation is to remain solely at the discretion of the creator. As an Form of entertainment you may be on to something. But it sounds like you're labeling the females we do have in the industry without context. Is Aloy heterosexual? How about Samus? Peach? Bayonetta? Senua? None of those games explicit have that question come up. So what are you saying we need more "effeminate" women? It kind of makes the argument that "women are capable too" if you have another side asking for more "lady like" characters.

It's the Idol problem. Nerds need to jack off to the purest of damsels.

Gurthang said:

Was it ever implied that the relationship between Chloe and Max was more than just a good friendship? I mean they can kiss depending on your choice but to me they seemed like best buddies instead of lovers.

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Depending on the kiss, their dynamic becomes romantic from there on.

Crossing Eden said:

Shoehorn? If anything Max and Chloe are hella gay. And where does the game try to titillate? What's titillating about that scene from TLOU2? Also pretty sure Aloy isn't asexual, just that every person romantically interested in her is lame AF.

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• I disagree. i don't think Max and Chloe are "hella" gay, nor do I think the idea should have been raised at all in context of the narrative or their character arcs until that moment in time
• The very concept of a lesbian romance is titillating to the average male gamer, especially how most games handle it, and Life is Strange doesn't necessarily handle the first kiss with any subtlety. The kiss exists for literally no reason than to be there, there's no lead up to it, no development, no context or justification in the moment
• I never said anything about TLOU2, my post was very specifically talking about LiS
• Then we come back to the problem of gaming as a medium lacking good representation of female led heterosexual romances

EDIT: Edited the post to make some of my meanings clearer

Male lens still dominates design decisions. I'd imagine they've done their research and realise that a substantial portion of the male audience feel uncomfortable and disassociated with the playable character if forced into romantic pursuit of men. The compromises usually wind up as no romantic options, asexual or lesbian.
It's disappointing and as already mentioned above why Estelle from Trails is so refreshing, it's just incredibly rare in video games for a well written romance story to be told from a female character's perspective.

hibikase said:

So passing the Bechdel Test is a bad thing now???

Like, seriously, what the fuck is this argument?

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100% of games passing the Bechdel Test isn't the end all be all goal for addressing all of the problems of narrative representation of things in real life.

And anyway, a game can include a romantic interest for the hetero female protagonist and still pass the Bechdel.

So what the fuck is YOUR argument?

OP has a very valid point, because I've noticed this trend too.

hibikase said:

So passing the Bechdel Test is a bad thing now???

Like, seriously, what the fuck is this argument?

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The bechdel test refers to a single scene. It isn't saying that women can't be interested men, just that it doesn't mean they're defined by their interest in them.

There are two possible candidates for heterosexual romance in Beyond :Two Souls. Unfortunately, the game only pushes one of them to the player, which makes it feel weird after the rejections to his advances.

Hupsel said:

I think most devs try to hide hetero female protagonists having relationships with male characters is because most male players get invested in the characters they play as (Lara Croft, Samus, etc...) and the player would feel jealous if the character they are controlling was trying to fuck or kiss another character... as weird as this sounds.

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This is close but not quite it. It also could be related to some male players getting uncomfortable when they try to hook up with another dude, even if they are playing as a woman.

Could also be that male game designers and/or writers have no interest in developing a straight relationship from the female perspective.

GameShrink said:

Why does a female character have to be all about her mission? Compare her to Geralt, whose mission is equally as dire, yet he has multiple fleshed-out romance options in each of his games (and the depth of his character is greatly enhanced as a result).

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Why does Aloy need to have sex like Geralt and what does her going into bed with male character add to her character? Doesn't her showing showing inclination to Varl enough for you to show that she's straight?

Evie Frye in AC Syndicate seemed pretty into Henry

Yeah I've noticed this too. And then you have Lara Croft who has never been aluded to be gay but for all intents and purposes she's asexual in all of her games.

hibikase said:

So passing the Bechdel Test is a bad thing now???

Like, seriously, what the fuck is this argument?

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It's a problem in the sense that mainstream games in particular avoid having female main characters have relationships with male characters due to a fear that male gamers would find such an experience uncomfortable. So a certain type of experience is being intentionally avoided to appease the sensibilities of the straight male gamer.

Hear hear OP, and good thread. The absence of male-loving protagonists in gaming -- whether heterosexual female or gay male -- is a serious problem, and I can't wait for games to start tackling it.

Representation for women in gaming just sucks overall. I'm gay and feel like when I can even play a woman, she's almost always straight... You're absolutely right in that there aren't many games with a straight female protagonist that is actively pursuing a man/men, but I really hope you're not trying to imply that the situation is any better for lesbians.

I grew up playing harvest moon (first as the male-only option, then as a straight woman) and it wasn't until stardew valley that I got the option to be gay. I still don't get the option in Story of Seasons. Fire Emblem has had marriage as a system since the 90s, but gay marriage wasn't a thing until fates. Every single woman whose sexuality is known in the tales games (unless I'm missing something from one of the few I haven't played) is straight. In fact, I can't recall ever playing a character who is canonically a lesbian. All the lesbians I've played have been in RPGs where I could also choose to be straight/bi (Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age). I started The Last of us, but didn't really enjoy it, (and since I barely played it, I'm not even sure if you ever played as ellie in the original).

What? We have a lot of great franchises with female protagonists.

We need more women protagonist over all. But as a bisexual woman I really don't appreciate the implication that you need to take away representation from queer women to achieve that.

In fact I rather like when a woman protagonist isn't defined by her affections for a man. I don't think anyone would argue that Samus was better off pining over Adam in Other M, vs being relatively asexual in the other games.

In the meantime, if you want to see powerful straight women protags play Taros games. Fuck in Drakengard 3 you collect a male harem

Jesus what a trainwreck of a thread this will be.

Outrage culture sucks, and this is what happens when it backfires.

"Oh no, these female protagonists don't love men! This is a problem!"

I can't roll my eyes hard enough.

hibikase said:

So passing the Bechdel Test is a bad thing now???

Like, seriously, what the fuck is this argument?

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...It's not the argument being made at all? Don't post blatant strawmen, please.

AAK said:

Making friends is completely different from finding a romantic companion, what a strange comparison.

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What? No it's not. Relationships are not binary things. Friendships can turn to romances, romances can end but return to friendships, etc. Not to mention simple hookups, friends with benefits, and everything else on the spectrum of complicated interactions between humans.

It's not just about "giving Aloy a quest to find a boyfriend". That's a ridiculous and reductive take on what the OP is talking about.

Mister X said:

What? We have a lot of great franchises with female protagonists.

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Reading is hard.

The CoD/Battlefield/Halo crowd I work with is already weirded out and made uncomfortable when they see me play as a non-sexualized female character in Monster Hunter, wondering why any guy would ever play as a woman if not to get an eyeful the whole game. They would probably puke if the character they played as started kissing guys.

Not a totally serious example, but I remember one psp game from way back in the day, "Thrillville". That had a female protagonist and you had romance options with multiple men. I mean it's a kids game - so the romance just involves kissing them and being their girlfriend or whatever. I'm not sure why we don't have that more, but I'm skeptical that it's because people find it icky. Like that's pretty condescending.

Phantom Thief said:

This was my biggest problem with Dontnod trying to shoehorn a Max and Chloe romance into Life is Strange:

• Why is it impossible to have a strong female lead in games who's not a titillating lesbian fantasy for the male gamer?
• Why is it impossible to have a good and proper representation of two women in games who are just friends, without any sexuality or romance being added for the male gamer's benefit (see again, point 1)
• Why is it impossible to have a strong female heterosexual lead in games, period? Either she is asexual, like Aloy seems to be, or she is at least bisexual.

It's a major issue with games, and Life is Strange, a game I otherwise love, in particular rubbed me the wrong way with how it handled it.

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mmm i dont think the majority of men are like lusting for girl on girl action.

or what the hell do i know, the female protag being lesbian or bi really didnt is in my "male gamer's benefit"


also what about bayo? though i think she would fuck practically anyone, even she flirts with luka a lot

AAK said:

The sidquests and errands that can be done in Horizon are always complementary to the plot. Rescuing random people stranded complements Aloy's upbringing with Rost's character of helping those in need along with exposing her to the culture and happenings of things outside of the Nora lands as their Seeker.

Her trying to hook up with random guys doesn't add to any of that.

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How is helping some random peasant with a fruit thief complementary to the plot? Sure there were some more substantial sub-quests, but most of them were really menial and ultimately insignificant.

WarRock said:

Uuuuhh, you guys know a character doesn't need to get laid to be portrayed as straight, right?

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You also don't need a character to have a romantic interest/relationship as a subcontext of a narrative, either.

Morrigan said:

Aloy has tons of side-quests and errands for various people. Her meeting people and making friends makes perfect sense, and there's no reason she couldn't have flings or develop relationships. Heterosexual male protagonists have romances, flings, hook-ups etc. in various games, including open-world RPGs (sounds familiar) despite being "on a quest".

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I'm basically saying that the lack of a romantic element in a game shouldn't be the sole reason to include one. Which I think is a very fair point.

Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying as "DJ Lushious must be part of the problem." Like I said in my initial post, I thought Emily Kaldwin was with a male Wyman and I didn't even think twice about it. I have no problem playing as a female character and I have no problem if their romantic interest/partner is a male.

Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice has the romantic feelings of the protagonist kick off the plot, considering she's attempting to bring back her murdered love.

It is something you don't see too much of though.

8byte said:

Jesus what a trainwreck of a thread this will be.

Outrage culture sucks, and this is what happens when it backfires.

"Oh no, these female protagonists don't love men! This is a problem!"

I can't roll my eyes hard enough.

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Outrage culture...

The reason why most straight women you play as in games are essentially asexual is pretty unideal.

Gustaf said:

mmm i dont think the majority of men are like lusting for girl on girl action.

or what the hell do i know, the female protag being lesbian or bi really didnt is in my "male gamer's benefit"

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Lesbian porn is frequently among the most popular categories of porn viewed, especially in the west. Most heterosexual men fetishize women in homosexual relationships.

What about dwarf? I want to play a homosexuel dwarf as my main character.

ZeroX said:

The bechdel test refers to a single scene. It isn't saying that women can't be interested men, just that it doesn't mean they're defined by their interest in them.

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I know that, but if you start claiming that a character is incomplete because they show no romantic interest you are one step away from saying that the Bechtel test is wrong.

AAK said:

Why does Aloy need to have sex like Geralt and what does her going into bed with male character add to her character? Doesn't her showing showing inclination to Varl enough for you to show that she's straight?

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I would agree with that, Aloy is not devoid of romantic interest, as evidenced by her interactions with Varl compared to her interactions with other male characters, even those who have romantic interest in her. I dont think romance was necessary for Horizon but I also dont think it would've been totally out of place either.

I understand OP's point, but in a world where for most types of media, stories with female leads always have a greater focus on romance than stories with male leads, the lack of such romance is refreshing.

I'd consider this a very rare instance where game stories are actually ahead of other media.