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BBC: At E3, video gaming's bigots have lost
- Thread starter Y2Kev
- Start date
I know it's a small thing, but it's still really cool that they're adding a dedicated Chinese faction to For Honor. You almost never see Chinese characters outside of Dynasty Warriors.
On its own it's not much, but it really does show how Ubisoft tend to be dedicated to this stuff these days.
On its own it's not much, but it really does show how Ubisoft tend to be dedicated to this stuff these days.
Ehhhhh
Speaking as a Greek person, that is a weird read you've got there.
That is one dangerously naive statement.
Several gamergaters are still very prolific and I see them retweeted frequently by those you'd consider respectable industry people often.
Several gamergaters are still very prolific and I see them retweeted frequently by those you'd consider respectable industry people often.
I was curious to know what Anita Sarkeesian thinks. She didn't say anything but she retweeted that so I guess it reflects her current opinion.
Edit: I realised she tweets often, I just had to scroll down further to see what she thought personally of E3.
Wolfenstein Youngblood is a small u$30 game on the same scale as say, Dishonored Death of the Outsider or Uncharted Lost Legacy and it's pretty telling developers only feel comfortable putting women as sole main protagonists in these titles which have significantly smaller budgets and also receive very little in terms of marketing.
And that's also ignoring how they tend to be pigeonholed into specific genres (eg survival, horror) where they can be portrayed as fragile, why do you think female protagonists started vanishing from the horror genre when it started to become more action based last gen?
I can see that argument. I just don't think that letting the player create their own character is something that developers should avoid or be criticized for in the slightest. It might not challenge the player to see through the eyes of a person of a specific gender or race but it does allow them to play that game as a character that they can identify with. I absolutely think there is room for both in gaming. Life is Strange is one of my favorite games of all time and I'm glad that Max was her own character. At the same time, I love that I can play as any character I want in Skyrim. I can travel through that world as a projection of myself or I can choose to interact with that world as an person that is vastly different from myself.
I think assuming that every male that chooses to play as a female character when they are presented with that choice is only doing so for the "eye candy" is completely unfair. I'd argue that there's nothing wrong with choosing to play as a character based on aesthetics alone but beyond that... it takes away from the females that choose to play as females because they want to feel more connected to their avatar. Among a myriad of other potential situations. I just don't think that giving players this kind of choice should ever be considered an inherently bad thing. Of course you could make arguments that player created characters have less personality than predetermined characters but that's a much broader issue to discuss.
I think characters like Max and Ellie need to be applauded but that doesn't need to go hand in hand with putting down developers that give us options or even ones that decide to go with a male protagonist.
I see this sentiment but I just don't think it's true. The reality is in the current climate that even a character like Ellie is still accused of being nothing but "pandering to SJW's". There's a reason why after Left Behind was released Neil had to come out and specifically state that Ellie was a lesbian. Because right after that you had people "speculating" that she wasn't really a lesbian but rather someone that was just confused, lonely or curious because she was still so young. The idea that this character that they like could be a lesbian was unfathomable to them. But if Riley had been a boy there wouldn't have been a single person that thought "Oh, I wonder if she's really straight?" after that kiss. So I think the people you're referring to that are okay with a lesbian relationship because it's "hot" are okay with it when it's portrayed that way. In other words, when they seek it out through porn. They aren't okay with it when it's connected to an actual character. Because at that point that character isn't doing it "for" them.
Yes, that's a fair point and something I've noticed. That's why TLoU 2 and Gears 5 being AAA and mainline entries matters.
Sure, that's also a trend we've seen before, but this is a weird point to make now, considering we were talking about clearly non-fragile, action-oriented protags like Ellie, Kait and the Blazkowicz daughters... :) And Resident Evil have featured female co-protags since the first game, at least.
To clarify, I don't disagree with your observation, but I do think we're seeing some progress at least.
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Things are definitely changing for the better in recent years. In just 5 years we've gone from 2k and Sony expressing concern at female characters on the boxart of their major games Bioshock Infinite and The Last of Us to EA putting a female character front and centre of their centerpiece game and are happy to tell anyone who has a problem with that to take a hike!
Western developers have gotten better at putting women in games. I usually had to rely on Japanese studios for this.
It's not putting down, as I said, I personally prefer to create my character because that's so unique to gaming. It absolutely has value, I am just pointing out that creating your own character and having a female character written to be female are not the same thing.
But I agree with you all around.
Slightly OT, but I'm still salty about the way Capcom handled Jill, she was basically the face of the franchise for almost a decade before they relegated her to a side character and gave the honors to Chris and Leon.
I'd be interested to see how the progress compares to other media like tv, film etc. From my armchair it looks like ther is progress but that it is small, and I wonder if that progress is smaller than other industries. But also this industry is a lot younger than some. Perhaps it has not come too far but has come further faster?
Also there are other factors that are hard to quantify. Like the relative 'size' of games: it's true that there are still too few games with female leads but does it count that arguably one of the biggest games of e3 does have this? I don't know if this makes a difference but hopefully so.
That said I think some of the comments are right when they say it's just gender swap. We've gone from 'straight white American man' to 'gay American woman' which really isn't that far is it. And if you wanna get really lefty, then there's really nothing in terms of representation for elderly, disabled or transgender in gaming.
Also there are other factors that are hard to quantify. Like the relative 'size' of games: it's true that there are still too few games with female leads but does it count that arguably one of the biggest games of e3 does have this? I don't know if this makes a difference but hopefully so.
That said I think some of the comments are right when they say it's just gender swap. We've gone from 'straight white American man' to 'gay American woman' which really isn't that far is it. And if you wanna get really lefty, then there's really nothing in terms of representation for elderly, disabled or transgender in gaming.
I'm not moving any goal posts, I just want diversity. And what's the deal with the athletic focus? Personally I barely know anyone with that slim athletic body, but in gaming they're everywhere.The whole medium is like looking at the DOA characters, different faces but almost identical ethnicity and body types. Even when creating our own characters we're often restricted to something that fits into that boring (imo) mold.
There were also many pre-indoeuropean people and languages in those regions, some of which are still unclassified. I assume at 431 BC it would be easier to find those traces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocretan_language
It's funny that the beginning of this thread people are questioning whether or not somebody from Greece was white. The concept of diversity right now seems to be limited to women, sexual orientation and people with darker skin color. But I think we really need to begin to look at the American concept of white and how it's applied on a global scale. People from Greece are Greek. There are Greek Americans who identify as white but that does not make people from Greece white. It's just weird that people want to apply something that was created by racist in this country to separate people on a global scale. But I understand for many people that's all they've been taught, all they've ever known so that's all they see, White.
Ancient Greece should not be categorized as "white" because the concept of "white people" did not exist yet. Greeks, Romans, Celts, Germans etc. in no way saw themselves as coming from some similar ethnic background. To call an ancient Greek white is to apply modern racial categories backwards in time and inject incorrect cultural concepts into the context of that period.
Nope, ever since they switched to action TPS, the only appearances she made were as an NPC with 10 minutes of screentime in RE5 and the protagonist in Revelations (the handheld spinoff), her absence in 6 in particular is still puzzling to me, as if they didn't want her to overshadow Chris & Leon.
While whiteness a social construct created recently to justify European expansionism, and it did not exist in the times of ancient Greece, the game is releasing in 2018, and the main characters are in no way white from a glance, they could just as easily pass as Latinx, Middle Eastern, or South Asian if you transplant them in today's Earth, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the game reveals that their ancestors were originally from somewhere in the global south.
I mean the bigots still dominate in gaming and all other media representation. I think "lost" is an exaggeration. But it was nice to see some big companies make at least a few decent, small moves toward inclusivity.
But, man, there is still a *LONG* way to go before we can claim the bigots "lost" anything.
But, man, there is still a *LONG* way to go before we can claim the bigots "lost" anything.
I know I'm harping on about this, but where are the unapologetic heterosexual female protagonists? I mean, this shouldn't be controversial, but why are hetero woman totally mia. Sure lesbian representation is great, but the pattern of female sexuality in gaming is pretty evident. You know when hollywood has a black man in a leading role, you can guarantee that when their love interest appears she will be either black or latin american - whereas white dudes get to be with women of all races. Having a lesbian protagonist feel a bit like that.
The comments in there are just awfull. A stark reminder that troglodytes are still alive and basking on the shadow of gammergate
Ah, yes. The old "you should be thankful you get anything at all!"
What a profound contribution.
This discussion about and reduction of Kassandra to her race is further proof it is such a bollocks concept. But yes, games still severely lack in ethnic diversity. This year still hit a positive note with me, as I think it shows that the industry is generally open to listen. Well, baby steps.
It's never a good idea to shit on an extremely underrepresented demographic with "what about me" posts, it happened a lot with Black Panther too. straight white males are still the vast majority of protagonists, they should be the ones targeted, TLOU is still the only AAA game to have a lesbian protagonist that isn't playersexual.
It was a pleasant surprise for sure. I definitely felt this year we saw more women as protagonists (main or otherwise) than the previous ones. We're improving on this front, slowly but surely.
User Banned (1 Week): Vilifying journalism + downplaying diversity and inclusivity efforts
This whole article feels a lot more a Gamergate bait than a genuine article over the changing way of thinking from the gaming community. Why?
It's not like the gaming journalism have any ethics, especially when we talk about the fight over the civil rights for the minorities, but divide the market by "progressives" and "bigots" doesn't feel legit. Not when some people feel themselves above the criticism and pretend that they actually care over, like EA.
It's not like the gaming journalism have any ethics, especially when we talk about the fight over the civil rights for the minorities, but divide the market by "progressives" and "bigots" doesn't feel legit. Not when some people feel themselves above the criticism and pretend that they actually care over, like EA.
It's true that straight female protags with male love interests are exceedingly rare in (AAA esp.) gaming and I've often lamented this, but it's not like there's that many lesbian protags either so let's not go "but what about __?", please. And unlike Fear Effect (which by the way is like 20 years old now), TLoU didn't make it titillating or pandering for straight male viewers and it's a prominent AAA game. These tweets make a good point, too.
There has been some good steps in the right direction, but there is still much progress to be made...
...as is underlined by this disgustingly ignorant take.
...as is underlined by this disgustingly ignorant take.
Fable 2 and 3 you get scarred and both male and female characters could get super buff.
Even disconsidering how that only happens later in the game (if you take some very specific actions) and your character still starts a pretty boy/girl, i dont think that suits the "hideous" definition most are thinking about
What makes me sad is how long it takes to acknowledge some minorities in the AAA space. We had Dandara and Celeste just recently, which respectively feature a woman of color with brazilian lore, and a young female dealing with emotional problems while not being sexualized. I applaud Naughty Dog for having Ellie as, well, what she has always been, but I wish more progressive indie games were featured on E3.
Having a trans protagonist in a big AAA game will probably be great to see in the future.
Having a trans protagonist in a big AAA game will probably be great to see in the future.
I'm not trying to do any what aboutism, but I can see how I come off that way.
What I am trying to say is that female sexuality in games is still very much dictated by what the male audience wants (or doesn't want - i.e it doesn't want any woman kissing a man while they are playing as her).
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