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BDubsLegend

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
1,027
But that's ok though? Recognizing that there's a demographic that will spend money on your products if you make things that appeal to them is not cynical, it's how the market works.
Yeah I guess regardless of intent women get to see themselves reflected in games more so they win either way. I guess I have to admit I'm salty about how some devs have been acting recently, like everyone that disagrees with their implementation must hate women. But I realize playing devils advocate can give power to trolls who I don't align with.
 

SCB360

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,639
Yeah I guess regardless of intent women get to see themselves reflected in games more so they win either way. I guess I have to admit I'm salty about how some devs have been acting recently, like everyone that disagrees with their implementation must hate women. But I realize playing devils advocate can give power to trolls who I don't align with.


The worst I've seen on here is the difference between Kingdom Come and Battlefield V, you cant win either argument for being "Historically Accurate" and sticking to your design because it's accurate to that period or saying "we're making the game our way, don't like it, don't buy it" because the devs wanted to tell stories in that period without sticking to accuracy
 

nelsonroyale

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,135
That's fine but this is not them making the game. This is a bunch of white people playing to stereotypes. Watch the trailer not a single other Indian except for the one guy driving a taxi full of droid looking things.

Yeah, I noticed what you mentioned and initially had a similar reaction. Still, there is plenty of diversity in the trailer and I am sure you can create any ethnicity you want in your protag. Also, a lot of seedy looking white people in the trailer, as hoods, etc.
 

Harken Raiser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,992
There was an Indian Taxi Driver because in 2077 they still need taxi drivers since they haven't figured out self driving cars yet, so let's just play up the stereotype of Indian taxi drivers. Apparently he's the only Indian in that city.
If they had kept the original year of 2020, then it would at least make sense for taxi drivers to still exist.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
I didn't think Ellie looked particularly femme. She dressed and groomed pretty much like me when I was perming my hair, and I consider myself butch of center.

Yeah Ellie actually looked kinda unwashed and gross
But it's like, how ugly an you make Ashley Johnson? She's pretty

Guys, this is like the movies, nobody, especially the hero is gonna be ugly
 
Oct 28, 2017
862
These games are still written mainly (and usually only) by white men and it's pretty telling how most are too scared to have a set female character so they've been going further and further into customizable characters while it's usually the white male one who gets shown the most in demonstrations, advertising and even things like cover art. When it comes to female characters sexual orientation it's almost always left ambiguous/asexual (Horizon) or girl/girl because it's "hot" and it makes the male audience (and developers no doubt, they helped make the industry what it is) less uncomfortable than seeing her kiss a man and risk feeling gay as has already been documented. And this is without getting into the borderline non-existent representation of gay/bisexual men and trans people, but I guess that's a bit too icky for the current "lesbians are hot and we're progressive guys, seriously" video game industry.

At the end of the day it's capitalism weaponizing progressiveness and finding another way to profit off people, especially due to ballooning video game budgets. If you're feeling generous throw in a couple of lead developers there suddenly growing to see women as human beings now that they're in their late 30s, have daughters and no longer spend the weekends at the local strip club with their co-workers. The usual crowd is mad they're getting a taste of what minorities have had to endure for years and so called progressive woke dudes use it as an excuse to write about how video games are finally an adult medium and their spouse/parents will finally respect them now.
 

Kimura

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
1,034
There was some really compelling female characters.

- The two women featured in Death Stranding
- The main character of Control
- Kassandra of ACO
- Lara
- The female lead of Gears 5
- V is playable as female in CP2077
- TLOU 2
- BGAE2
- Wolfenstein (twin daughters)
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Wasn't I just reading about Colin Moriarity and Nick Robinson being invited to attend all sorts of events at E3?
For one they're also inviting the public these days and besides, say what you want but IMO Colin is nowhere near being one of the worst. He just has some ego-complexes that makes him say things that piss people off.
 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
31,222
There was some really compelling female characters.

- The two women featured in Death Stranding
- The main character of Control
- Kassandra of ACO
- Lara
- The female lead of Gears 5
- V is playable as female in CP2077
- TLOU 2
- BGAE2
- Wolfenstein (twin daughters)
Again, you create a character in BG&E2 so while you can play as a female lead, the woman shown is not playable but rather a main NPC.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,374
Ubisoft is ahead of the curve on that, no question. Watch Dogs 2, AC Origins, now BG&E2. Hopefully other publishers take note.

Don't forget AC: Freedom's Cry and AC: Liberation. And as much as I dislike the game itself, Assassin's Creed 3 having a Native American protagonist was awesome too.

I only wish Liberation were a bit better as a game, I'd love to see Aveline again.

Not to mention Ubisoft does a lot of good diversity work with big action games too, like Rainbow Six Siege as well as Ghost Recon wildlands having you able to customize your covert operative.

mhm and not even a tiny bit of extra weight anywhere either, because that wouldn't make sense because she's a runner or climber or whatever, everyone is white and into fitness and LCHF diets. But lets keep pretending that gaming has evolved so so much :P

It has evolved, quite substantially from 10 years ago, even five, even two. Dismissing everything out right because all developers are not where they need to be yet is pretty reductive.

The important thing is developers are clearly listening, and they're not listening to the bigots or trolls, they're not listening solely to corporate shareholders who only want to Market to a certain audience, they're listening to people who actually buy their products- a wide range of people from all backgrounds- who desire for more representation and diversity. I don't know how that's not substantial progress.
 

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
Spot on. It's basically a gender swap on the typical slim white man into a slim white woman. Woohoo? :P
Wake me up when women of all colors and sizes gets to be the hero.
You're moving the goalpost. If all of them were women of color instead, you'd check their body types as well? What else until they qualify, in your book? I think slim to medium builds are ok, being that many of these characters are generally quite athletic.

Pigsy in the Enslaved DLC is perhaps the only protagonist of a drastically different body type I've played, though I don't know that you'd approve of the character.
 

giapel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,633
There was some really compelling female characters.

- The two women featured in Death Stranding
- The main character of Control
- Kassandra of ACO
- Lara
- The female lead of Gears 5
- V is playable as female in CP2077
- TLOU 2
- BGAE2
- Wolfenstein (twin daughters)
Also female Pikachu
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
We are not extinct you know, we are still around.
And we were always Mediterranean white.
Never Nordic like some would like to project.
Excuse my English as I am still learning

But isn't there different skin tones like black white etc? I was sure there was considering it is next to the middle east and ancient Greece had tons of immigration from different parts of the world. You know better though since you come from there.
 

BDubsLegend

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
1,027
These games are still written mainly (and usually only) by white men and it's pretty telling how most are too scared to have a set female character so they've been going further and further into customizable characters while it's usually the white male one who gets shown the most in demonstrations, advertising and even things like cover art. When it comes to female characters sexual orientation it's almost always left ambiguous/asexual (Horizon) or girl/girl because it's "hot" and it makes the male audience (and developers no doubt, they helped make the industry what it is) less uncomfortable than seeing her kiss a man and risk feeling gay as has already been documented. And this is without getting into the borderline non-existent representation of gay/bisexual men and trans people, but I guess that's a bit too icky for the current "lesbians are hot and we're progressive guys, seriously" video game industry.

At the end of the day it's capitalism weaponizing progressiveness and finding another way to profit off people, especially due to ballooning video game budgets. If you're feeling generous throw in a couple of lead developers there suddenly growing to see women as human beings now that they're in their late 30s, have daughters and no longer spend the weekends at the local strip club with their co-workers. The usual crowd is mad they're getting a taste of what minorities have had to endure for years and so called progressive woke dudes use it as an excuse to write about how video games are finally an adult medium and their spouse/parents will finally respect them now.
Yes yes this is it! My dream game would be Bad Company 3 with like Sweetwater's(or anyone) Great great grandma as a world War 2 hero. It would be like they guys are telling stories about the little known hero's in thier family. She could be a total bad ass and a running joke could be how it's obvious it's a woman to the audience but it doesn't matter. So much creativity, you could do whatever you wanted with it. But it would require EA give up the more profitable mainline battlefield name to make it. I would have nothing but respect for that. Expecting EA to give up money tho....
 

Falconbox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,600
Buffalo, NY
I loved the female character in Gears 5 blatantly telling dude that this wasn't his story anymore. A great cry went up somewhere in the world, as if Gamergaters everywhere were snuffed out in an instant.

Seemed like a pretty natural progression too.

Not many fans were really in love with JD's character from Gears 4, and the game ends on the cliffhanger of Kait's character revealing her necklace/medallion and the locust connection.
 

Apal_ytos

Member
Oct 29, 2017
489
Greece
Excuse my English as I am still learning

But isn't there different skin tones like black white etc? I was sure there was considering it is next to the middle east and ancient Greece had tons of immigration from different parts of the world. You know better though since you come from there.


Skin tones vary from olive to pasty white and hair from blonde to black. Noone cares about that here btw.

Of course there was some infusions from other ethnic groups, we are placed at a very busy place you know.
But different languages and religions kept the ethnic groups mostly separate.
 

Deleted member 15538

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,387
BBC writing about games? Kotaku UK might as well throw in the towel. Not even kidding unless you're looking for fake rumours. :p
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,112
NYC
progress has been made, for sure. really happy to see a lot more positive representation.

There was an Indian Taxi Driver because in 2077 they still need taxi drivers since they haven't figured out self driving cars yet, so let's just play up the stereotype of Indian taxi drivers. Apparently he's the only Indian in that city.

that part wasn't great
 
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Einbroch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,078
Can't we be happy we're moving in the right direction? Games take years and years to make. It's not just gonna be an overnight thing. We need to keep the pressure up, absolutely, but that doesn't mean we can't reflect and enjoy how far we've come in these few years.
 

Nightwing123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,417
It's always good to see bigots lose and get upset. I hope video games continue to get even more diverse in the future.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,540
Dallas, TX
We are not extinct you know, we are still around.
And we were always Mediterranean white.
Never Nordic like some would like to project.

Yeah, I think it would help if people would just recognize that "white" is a made up thing. Greeks are white in the modern conception, which counts Mediterranean people as white so long as they're on the European side of the sea. But that classification didn't exist back then, and those Greeks would've seen themselves as having way more in common with Persians or Egyptians than any German or British barbarian. The lines by which groups are lumped together have shifted over time, because they're all kind of made up.


I can't name a game in which I've played a hideous human being. They're always attractive...if sometimes goofy looking.

Yeah. Game characters are all still too standardized in terms of body shape and all that, but at least recently, largely thanks to scanning in real people for mocapping, they look like real people with real quirks to their faces and all of that, instead of perfectly smoothed over Platonic ideals of feminine beauty or whatever. Like, Ellie and her dance partner look like real people, albeit attractive ones, whereas if you go back to Uncharted 2, Elena and Chloe look like game characters drawn specifically to be attractive.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Have you played God of War?
AA2NcwL.gif
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
There was some really compelling female characters.

- The two women featured in Death Stranding
- The main character of Control
- Kassandra of ACO
- Lara
- The female lead of Gears 5
- V is playable as female in CP2077
- TLOU 2
- BGAE2
- Wolfenstein (twin daughters)


Yep and we had 2 asian leads, GoT samurai and Sekiro and Cyberpunk 2077 has multi racial and disabled people as well.
 

N7_Angel

Alt-Account
Banned
Jun 5, 2018
129
The real solution for this is custom heroes and romance à la Prey/Cyberpunk etc... that's the best way to please everyone. no default hero anymore again, it's sad but people will never get satisfied by anything otherwise.
 

Karppuuna

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
332
User Banned (1 Week): Sexism
If gaming community is like 90% of men and 10% of women, why do we need playable women characters in every game, even if the story is originally written for man character.
it's hypocrisy and i feel sick about it, this hole thing is so disgusting, you are taking creativity freedom out of artist hands.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
If they had kept the original year of 2020, then it would at least make sense for taxi drivers to still exist.

It isn't a taxi cab, but a specifc service combat cab. Its not about driving to places per say. But to do damage. Its ironic more then anything, with poc/cybered up assassin's in the back.

Plus you see semi regular cars in the trailer. So despite the year, folks still use vehicles and there are lots of roads in and around Night City. Not really that far flung.
 

Amiablepercy

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,587
California
The real solution for this is custom heroes and romance à la Prey/Cyberpunk etc... that's the best way to please everyone. no default hero anymore again, it's sad but people will never get satisfied by anything otherwise.

I'm Latino and push for diversity, inclusion, and representation but this is not a solution. It stifling. It is narratively limiting. It's the opposite of authentically expressing an artistic impulse. Sometimes a fully customizable hero works but sometimes a purposefully designed protagonist is made that way for a reason.
 

MonadL

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,895
The best thing was EA straight up telling gamers to fuck off regarding Battlefield V. That's the type of response from a big company that was sorely missing for awhile.
 

Mailbox

Member
Oct 30, 2017
561
idk, i'm getting some slight latin american vibes from her.
might just be me though.

The real solution for this is custom heroes and romance à la Prey/Cyberpunk etc... that's the best way to please everyone. no default hero anymore again, it's sad but people will never get satisfied by anything otherwise.

By wanting "no default hero" you have literally pigeon-holed a gigantic amount of narrative tools for writers to use. By having custom heroes everywhere, you lose out of character depth and most avenues of character introspection.

Custom heroes is not the answer to diversity, a growing number of "contrarian" (as in not expected defaults) character designs and alterations and examinations of archetypes, imo, is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
If gaming community is like 90% of men and 10% of women, why do we need playable women characters in every game, even if the story is originally written for man character.
it's hypocrisy and i feel sick about it, this hole thing is so disgusting, you are taking creativity freedom out of artist hands.
Is it really so disgusting?
Like, could you give me some examples of creative freedom being taken from these artists' hands?