Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits, Suit Says (NY Times) [Read OP]

Isn't this the same lawyer who wants to eliminate everything EXCEPT test scores from admissions?

It's profoundly stupid to claim that colleges should be artificially limited on what makes a qualified student. Test scores are not the sole measure (or even the best measure) of success.

If people think the end goal of this lawsuit if they win will be more Asian Americans admitted, wrong, it will be more whites admitted.

You will only push the other minorities down, to get maybe a few more of your own group in, but not as many as they believe.

Then back to square one for everyone. Good job.

Forever foreigner stereotype

Either too aggressively ambitious or strange customs or too shy and keep to themselves

What happen to the multi generations who should be way more americanized?

Harvard consistently rated Asian-American applicants lower than others on traits like "positive personality," likability, courage, kindness and being "widely respected," according to an analysis of more than 160,000 student records filed Friday by a group representing Asian-American students in a lawsuit against the university.

Asian-Americans scored higher than applicants of any other racial or ethnic group on admissions measures like test scores, grades and extracurricular activities, according to the analysis commissioned by a group that opposes all race-based admissions criteria. But the students' personal ratings significantly dragged down their chances of being admitted, the analysis found.
The court documents, filed in federal court in Boston, also showed that Harvard conducted an internal investigation into its admissions policies in 2013 and found a bias against Asian-American applicants. But Harvard never made the findings public or acted on them.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Also, the article states:

Harvard had fought furiously over the last few months to keep secret the documents that were unsealed Friday.

"It turns out that the suspicions of Asian-American alumni, students and applicants were right all along," the group, Students for Fair Admissions, said in a court document laying out the analysis. "Harvard today engages in the same kind of discrimination and stereotyping that it used to justify quotas on Jewish applicants in the 1920s and 1930s."

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

To literally no Asian American's surprise.




However, I have to say, it's a tough issue. For many Asian Americans, who have the advantage of coming from cultures that value education as the only means of achievement/success/survival in America, this is the only way they can succeed and they know it. Therefore, it's pushed in all our communities that we must succeed. Not only that, many of us have parents who either are professionals, or know that it's the only way to succeed, so even if the parents came here and cleaned fish in supermarkets, opened their own restaurants, nail salons, etc... none of them ever have their kids follow. Their kids are pushed to be doctors, lawyers, engineers. All of this builds up to what the article finds- we, as a whole, tend to outscore literally everyone else on grades, extracurriculars, and anything that will boost our chance of getting into a good school and getting a good job.

The racism against Asian Americans that exists in America isn't seen in being murdered by police or stopped on the street to be deported. Instead, the kind of institutionalized, structural racism we face come from the inequality in both education and in our careers. Being seen as cold, emotionless, meek, submissive, not creative, etc, all lead to us getting skipped over for positions in schools or positions in management/upper levels of our careers. Unfortunately, because it's based on race, simply getting rid of racial factors directly hurts other minorities that also face structural racism but in different ways.

I'm not convinced that getting rid of the so-called "race" based affirmative action is going to help Asian Americans get into schools. If you ask me, Harvard and other institutions will simply continue to rate Asian Americans poorer on the same traits they've been rating, which will continue to mean less Asian Americans in those schools. All we'll see is an increase of whites taking over the spots that were held for black and brown students from disadvantaged situations.

What WOULD be nice would be totally blind admissions in terms of race, and use "affirmative action" that looks at not just socioeconomic status of the family, but also geographical position/family history. Someone coming from the "hood"... be it black, brown, yellow, or white, who went to poorly funded schools, but still have excellent grades and test scores. People who are the first in their families to go to college. Pure socioeconomic status isn't always a good indicator because there's way more issues... like the kind of environment you grew up in. In these cases, personal statements that talk about the kind of particular racism you experienced and the barriers you've overcome can be an indication of your race, but would still paint an accurate picture of the kinds of hardship you faced.

^^^
Pretty much.

We're barely regarded as human in popular media and you wonder why this view of us is so pervasive.

Pelleas said:

^^^
Pretty much.

We're barely regarded as human in popular media and you wonder why this view of us is so pervasive.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I don't think it's just the media anymore. At this point, it's just Harvard admissions making up excuses to depress Asian American acceptance.

20 years ago we had this same issue, and Harvard claimed that the problem was Asian American students weren't "well-rounded" enough. "All they do is study." Once Asian Americans realized that was a so-called problem, they began to do a lot of extra stuff. They ran volunteer groups, took on leadership roles, wrote books, became captains of athletic teams, invented things, found "passions," etc. Then, when these schools could no longer pretend it was about not being well-rounded... well shit, now it's all "personality" problems.

What they really hate is that we're not white, and it bothers these people in some inexplicable and "unknown" ways to see the top academic institutions be filled with all these foreigner that probably just copy off each other on tests anyway /s. A part of it is really, that a lot of them still somehow believe that other colors are inferior to them in intelligence and ability, and bursting that bubble would be traumatizing. Sadly, a LOT of people in the US still believe in that flawed IQ test where some scientist decided he found "proof" that black/brown people were "mentally inferior" to white people. For those same people, the idea that yellow people are destroying them academically means, in their minds, that they're not the smartest/best race. *shrug*

I can not believe the amount of people that still express the idea that Asian Americans are "only" good at school, and are "only" good because they memorize everything and have no creativity. These people can't even bring themselves to admit that they aren't the superior race with the superior mind. The only reason those people are threatened by Asian American success is because they want to think of themselves as better. The same people, who are soooooooooooo into "facts" and "logic," get REALLY emotional and irrational the moment the so-called quantitative facts change, and suddenly it's all subjective stuff that "really matters" (that NEVER matters when they compare themselves to black/brown people).

Harvard Asian body is about 25% , which is pretty high vs the population of other races other than white.

Psrock1 said:

Harvard Asian body is about 25% , which is pretty high vs the population of other races other than white.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Greatly over representing national population figures of only 5%.

Would be interesting to propose a test on Harvard personality ratings without seeing a person's skin color and to see how, if it does, change the outcome.

Playing the piano and violin is greatly invested in to the point that it has become a cliche or trope for admissions.

Ah the old they're too docile and meek excuse and what the fuck is up with this quote

This keeps the numbers of Asian-Americans artificially low, while advancing less qualified white, black and Hispanic applicants, the plaintiffs contend.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

They trying to pit the minority groups against each other?

It seems like Harvard went about the worst way possible to handle this. You can tweak your review process to craft a class without being so direct on putting down any one race.

As someone that does work in college admissions, though, it is complicated. It's about much more than test scores. And personally we're not always impressed by students who are rich and can afford nonstop test prep. It's well known in admissions that test scores are correlated largely to income. But even still it depends on their entire application file.

So to say someone's is more or less "qualified" based on test score tells me they don't understand the process and are too obsessed with hitting an arbitrary test score benchmark.

Edit: And yeah the tactic of tearing down other minorities is quite suspect.

commissioned by a group that opposes all race-based admissions criteria. But the students' personal ratings significantly dragged down their chances of being admitted, the analysis found.
The court documents, filed in federal court in Boston, also showed that Harvard conducted an internal investigation into its admissions policies in 2013 and found a bias against Asian-American applicants. But Harvard never made the findings public or acted on them.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Harvard, one of the most sought-after and selective universities in the country, admitted only 4.6 percent of its applicants this year. That has led to intense interest in the university's closely guarded admissions process. Harvard had fought furiously over the last few months to keep secret the documents that were unsealed Friday.
The documents came out as part of a lawsuit charging Harvard with systematically discriminating against Asian-Americans, in violation of civil rights law. The suit says that Harvard imposes what is in effect a soft quota of "racial balancing." This keeps the numbers of Asian-Americans artificially low, while advancing less qualified white, black and Hispanic applicants, the plaintiffs contend.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Harvard vigorously disagreed on Friday, saying that its own expert analysis showed no discrimination and that seeking diversity is a valuable part of student selection. The university lashed out at the founder of Students for Fair Admissions, Edward Blum, accusing him of using Harvard to replay a previous challenge to affirmative action in college admissions, Fisher v. the University of Texas at Austin. In its 2016 decision in that case, the Supreme Court ruled that race could be used as one of many factors in admissions.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

ummmmmm yeah I don't think this group is so good...

Kickmaster Kim said:

Ah the old they're too docile and meek excuse and what the fuck is up with this quote
They trying to pit the minority groups against each other?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You act like you think they care about other races.

Kickmaster Kim said:

They trying to pit the minority groups against each other?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

Psrock1 said:

Harvard Asian body is about 25% , which is pretty high vs the population of other races other than white.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It seems pretty obvious that Harvard and other Ivy league schools are trying their best to keep the Asian student body from going much above that.

And they are using all that holistic application stuff to get around the test scores and grades.

Dennis8K said:

It seems pretty obvious that Harvard and other Ivy league schools are trying their best to keep the Asian student body from going much above that.

And they are using all that holistic application stuff to get around the test scores and grades.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Could also be that test scores are not really good indicators of college success. Class performances is much better, though.

The damning thing is that alumni interviewers rated these kids just as well as the white ones but the admissions office didn't even bother to meet most of the Asian applicants and just rated them poorly. This stinks to high heaven and the only thing I hate is that it's being backed by Blum. Of course two things can be right at the same time. Blum is a scumbag using Asian Americans as cover. Doesn't mean that we aren't being unfairly impacted by unconscious racism & bias in the application process. Alot of the redacted shit in Harvard's report is fishy af. I love that this is getting press though, especially with DeBlasio and his BS plans concerning specialized schools in NY.

And I second Pet. Once we started becoming more well-rounded applicants rather than one-note academics, suddenly they have this "personality traits" shit that coincidentally Asians just do poorly on.

"positive personality," likability, courage, kindness and being "widely respected,"

Fuck off Harvard.

Psrock1 said:

Harvard Asian body is about 25% , which is pretty high vs the population of other races other than white.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

this relationship holds at other top institutions as well

the asian american community seriously needs to let this go before affirmative action is put on the chopping block and hispanic/african americans suffer. you're not being systematically discriminated against if you apply to stanford, Berkeley, and UCLA and only Berkeley says yes

where are the black and latino people that are stealing all of these ivy league admissions

RastaMentality said:

where are the black and latino people that are stealing all of these ivy league admissions

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

well

blacks and latinos combined make up

*checks notes*

19% vs 22% Asian at Princeton

17% vs 19% Asian at UPenn

14.2% vs 23% Asian at Stanford

20.5% vs 26% Asian at MIT

GoldenEye 007 said:

It seems like Harvard went about the worst way possible to handle this. You can tweak your review process to craft a class without being so direct on putting down any one race.

As someone that does work in college admissions, though, it is complicated. It's about much more than test scores. And personally we're not always impressed by students who are rich and can afford nonstop test prep. It's well known in admissions that test scores are correlated largely to income. But even still it depends on their entire application file.

So to say someone's is more or less "qualified" based on test score tells me they don't understand the process and are too obsessed with hitting an arbitrary test score benchmark.

Edit: And yeah the tactic of tearing down other minorities is quite suspect.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I could be wayyyyy off here, but I'm almost positive the article discusses how it's NOT just about test scores.

And while I didn't read the brief filed, I'm sure I read in the article (and admittedly, elsewhere) that the qualified students are well rounded in everything.

Shout out the UC system. God bless.

I think outside of Santa Barbara and Merced, Asian Americans are the majority - or at least a plurality of the student body.

woman said:

this relationship holds at other top institutions as well

the asian american community seriously needs to let this go before affirmative action is put on the chopping block and hispanic/african americans suffer. you're not being systematically discriminated against if you apply to stanford, Berkeley, and UCLA and only Berkeley says yes

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Uhh Stanford is like miles above UCLA and is still much better than Cal as well.

Also, it's still systematic discrimination, even if you don't care. Racism is still racism whether or not you think it's serious.

Back in my year we had a huge issue with the UC system when UCLA only admitted two black students into their program. It's not fair to say, well, lots of black students got into UCR that year so it's not systematic discrimination.

wisdom0wl said:

Shout out the UC system. God bless

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

They still unofficially have racial biases, but that's more to do with the fact that it's people doing the admissions in the end. I bet if admission standards and decisions were as transparent as cameras and recordings of the discussions going on, we'd see a lot more shady stuff.

That being said, I'm glad the UC system takes into advantage more factors that just the numbers on the application status.

Asian Americans experience the opposite of affirmative action because there are so many Asians in elite universities, yet only make up 5-7% of the general American population.

My parents know an admissions officer and they have internal guidelines on how this works. (varies by university of course)

For example, let's say a white student scores 20 on some exam. If a Black or Latino student scores an 18, it could be seen as being equal to the white student. On the other end, if an Asian student scores 22, it could also be seen as being equal to the white student.

Therefore, the Asian student has to score 23+ in order to be perceived as being better.

There are many people who believe in pure meritocracy, regardless of your origins. It's a very legitimate stance.

Pet said:

Uhh Stanford is like miles above UCLA and is still much better than Cal as well.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Boo this man! lol

Pet said:

They still unofficially have racial biases, but that's more to do with the fact that it's people doing the admissions in the end. I bet if admission standards and decisions were as transparent as cameras and recordings of the discussions going on, we'd see a lot more shady stuff.

That being said, I'm glad the UC system takes into advantage more factors that just the numbers on the application status.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Sure, but it seemed to work out for me. In my 4 years at UCLA, I always felt like I was in the majority population for once with my fellow Asian Americans lol

I honestly don't know how much of a culture shock grad school in the east is gonna be.

Why don't admission officers just hold Asian and white applicants to the same goddamn standards. Is that asking for too much.

Pet said:

Also, it's still systematic discrimination, even if you don't care. Racism is still racism whether or not you think it's serious.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

how is it systemic discrimination if just one school is in question, a school that admits 23% Asians into a class at that

this just aint what you think it is

woman said:

how is it systemic discrimination if just one school is in question, a school that admits 23% Asians into a class at that

this just aint what you think it is

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

You think it's just one school lol? Bless your heart.



It is what it is. There's been other reports that show this same trend, at other schools.

woman said:

how is it systemic discrimination if just one school is in question, a school that admits 23% Asians into a class at that

this just aint what you think it is

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Because if Asians were judged like whites it would be 40 percent.

That facts are in clear sight. California showed what happens when you take the cap off the race quota.

TimExecutor said:

There are many people who believe in pure meritocracy, regardless of your origins. It's a very legitimate stance.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It's legitimate if you drank a gallon of the lockean koolaid and have a totally asocial and ahistorical understanding of society.

woman said:

this relationship holds at other top institutions as well

the asian american community seriously needs to let this go before affirmative action is put on the chopping block and hispanic/african americans suffer. you're not being systematically discriminated against if you apply to stanford, Berkeley, and UCLA and only Berkeley says yes

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That's actually the definition of systemic discrimination.
Asians shouldn't "just let it go" because it might hurt others.
Instead the review process needs to looked at and changed so this doesn't happen.
One thing is drastically reducing foreign and overseas applications, but they're not because that brings in money. Pass a law on that, a foreign student slot should only be given if one is available.

TimExecutor said:

Asian Americans experience the opposite of affirmative action because there are so many Asians in elite universities, yet only make up 5-7% of the general American population.

My parents know an admissions officer and they have internal guidelines on how this works. (varies by university of course)

For example, let's say a white student scores 20 on some exam. If a Black or Latino student scores an 18, it could be seen as being equal to the white student. On the other end, if an Asian student scores 22, it could also be seen as being equal to the white student.

Therefore, the Asian student has to score 23+ in order to be perceived as being better.

There are many people who believe in pure meritocracy, regardless of your origins. It's a very legitimate stance.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I personally don't think "pure meritocracy" is a valid stance. Because it requires a truly equal starting point and equal access to resources. Which is inherently not a reality in the US by design. And additionally, "pure numbers" are not a sure fire indicator of college success anyway.

Pet said:

I could be wayyyyy off here, but I'm almost positive the article discusses how it's NOT just about test scores.

And while I didn't read the brief filed, I'm sure I read in the article (and admittedly, elsewhere) that the qualified students are well rounded in everything.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'll have to look further I guess. But some of the references I saw seemed to imply purely test score or other related numerical metrics. But like the UT case that was slapped down, I find it hard to find there was significant discrimination when a population apparently represents 25% of a college class when they represent like 5% of the population. It could just be a tough reality situation like the woman from UT had to learn when she was rejected. Harvard is highly selective and gets tens of thousands more applications than they can accept. That naturally will require that students are turned down even though they probably would be successful at the college.

But I guess we will see more when more details come out. And again, I do admit it appears Harvard handled it the wrong way.

Why are people parroting Abigal Fisher's arguments?

wisdom0wl said:

Shout out the UC system. God bless.

I think outside of Santa Barbara and Merced, Asian Americans are the majority - or at least a plurality of the student body.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

with 2% black populations max. congrats indeed.

I go to davis and while it's not majority white, the black demographics are kinda sad

RastaMentality said:

with 2% black populations max. congrats indeed.

I go to davis and while it's not majority white, the black demographics are kinda sad

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Davis alum here too. Yeah it was pretty sad when I went there.

GoldenEye 007 said:

I personally don't think "pure meritocracy" is a valid stance. Because it requires a truly equal starting point and equal access to resources. Which is inherently not a reality in the US by design. And additionally, "pure numbers" are not a sure fire indicator of college success anyway.


I'll have to look further I guess. But some of the references I saw seemed to imply purely test score or other related numerical metrics. But like the UT case that was slapped down, I find it hard to find there was significant discrimination when a population apparently represents 25% of a college class when they represent like 5% of the population. It could just be a tough reality situation like the woman from UT had to learn when she was rejected. Harvard is highly selective and gets tens of thousands more applications than they can accept. That naturally will require that students are turned down even though they probably would be successful at the college.

But I guess we will see more when more details come out. And again, I do admit it appears Harvard handled it the wrong way.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

"Asian-Americans scored higher than applicants of any other racial or ethnic group on admissions measures like test scores, grades and extracurricular activities, according to the analysis commissioned by a group that opposes all race-based admissions criteria. But the students' personal ratings significantly dragged down their chances of being admitted, the analysis found."

"Harvard consistently rated Asian-American applicants lower than others on traits like "positive personality," likability, courage, kindness and being "widely respected," according to an analysis of more than 160,000 student records"

Pet said:

You think it's just one school lol? Bless your heart.

It is what it is. There's been other reports that show this same trend, at other schools.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

other schools that have similarly disproportionately high rates of asian americans in attendance

like, what's the issue for yall? where are you seeing the privation?

apply to 5 top schools, get into 2 or 3, pick one, and keep it pushing.

woman said:

other schools that have similarly disproportionately high rates of asian americans in attendance

like, what's the issue for yall? where are you seeing the privation?

apply to 5 top schools, get into 2 or 3, pick one, and keep it pushing.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Is this what you also tell black and brown students that get rejected from UCLA/Cal but get into Riverside and Merced?



And I don't know why you use the term disproportionate like there's no measure of merit. Asian Americans value and care about education very highly, it only makes sense that there will be lots of them in schools.

I don't think white people are "disproportionately" overrepresented in country music or the NRA. It's just what they like and put effort into.

RastaMentality said:

with 2% black populations max. congrats indeed.

I go to davis and while it's not majority white, the black demographics are kinda sad

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It's not the Asian Americans responsibility to pay for the reparations against the systematic racism white people created to hold back the black community.

We are minorities too and most of us aren't asking for college to judge us on the same level as blacks and Hispanic. We understand why affirmative action is needed to rise the community against the hundreds of years of racism.

We just hate the fact that we're also handicapped against white people.

Pet said:

"Asian-Americans scored higher than applicants of any other racial or ethnic group on admissions measures like test scores, grades and extracurricular activities, according to the analysis commissioned by a group that opposes all race-based admissions criteria. But the students' personal ratings significantly dragged down their chances of being admitted, the analysis found."

"Harvard consistently rated Asian-American applicants lower than others on traits like "positive personality," likability, courage, kindness and being "widely respected," according to an analysis of more than 160,000 student records"

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

And guess what. Admissions officers even at less selective schools adjust for all of that. It's complicated. Having extracurriculars and high test scores is just going to be viewed differently versus a student in a district that maybe can't feed their students properly or provide the latest technology in the classroom. A lot of places are more concerned with a concept called grit than someone basically fed everything on a silver platter.

As for the personality stuff, I've already acknowledged Harvard seemed to fuck up there. I can't explain their reasoning there. And it on the surface appears to be wrong.

Pet said:

Is this what you also tell black and brown students that get rejected from UCLA/Cal but get into Riverside and Merced?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

no, because they are extremely disproportionately represented

you're not looking at this from a macro perspective. the asian american students with very competitive applications who end up rejected from harvard aren't falling through the cracks. they aren't applying to just one school. they end up at another top 10 school which sets them up for great things.

ccbfan said:

We are minorities too and most of us aren't asking for college to judge us on the same level as blacks and Hispanic. We understand why affirmative action is needed to rise the community against the hundreds of years of racism.

We just hate the fact that we're also handicapped against white people

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

This basically.

I'm all for affirmative action but fuck if we're getting annoyed at getting passed over or playing with a handicap against subpar white children.

ccbfan said:

It's not the Asian Americans responsibility to pay for the reparations against the systematic racism white people created to hold back the black community.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I mean, folks calling for the end of affirmative action will do the exact opposite of that. it is their responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen to black and brown individuals.

ccbfan said:

We are minorities too and most of us aren't asking for college to judge us on the same level as blacks and Hispanic. We understand why affirmative action is needed to rise the community against the hundreds of years of racism.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Aren't there more calls to outright end affirmative action rather than modify it? Or maybe I'm mistaken.

Pet said:

Why don't admission officers just hold Asian and white applicants to the same goddamn standards. Is that asking for too much.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Sounds like being a minority.

Cocaloch said:

Why are people parroting Abigal Fisher's arguments?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

They don't see it yet. But it's working.

Necromanti said:

Aren't there more calls to outright end affirmative action rather than modify it? Or maybe I'm mistaken.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Recalling, I believe Bams wanted to ween the system off of it, but was shot down pretty hard.

Having hard limits leads to other issues although I guess it's more transparent eg Indian system

Upper castes get so and so percentage of the seats rest is reserved for lower castes and other down trodden segments etc . Know it was a huge issue when introduced but I mean I grew up with it so it was normal to me but then Again India is completely test based

Cocaloch said:

Why are people parroting Abigal Fisher's arguments?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Oh please, her scores, gpa and class rank was barely low end UT quality. She probably wouldn't have made it in regardless of her race.

The Asian Americans here are scoring better than the majority of the people that got in.