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Kim-Trump Summit Thread - Fire and Fury Edition
- Thread starter Mar Tuuk
- Start date
This is a shocking level of historical ignorance. SK and NK have met before. You're in here lecturing us on the virtues of diplomacy and you don't even know the basics of the situation over there?
Seriously, read their post again
You mean like when Obama wanted to meet with Iranian leaders with no preconditions and republicans called it "appeasement"
It's been revealed over the years by people who worked in the Clinton White House that they were planning on having a meeting with Kim Jong Il in 2000 just before he left office but the election fiasco forced them to cancel. It was why Albright made a visit beforehand, to lay the groundwork.
"is following the first meeting between the SK president and the NK president."
I can read just fine.
It's amazing watching armchair international negotiators bray with excitement at giving despots propaganda wins for...nothing.
Keep trying though
No, they didn't. Like seriously are Trumpers going to even attempt to learn history?
Where in this did the two Korean leaders meet beforehand?
Any US president would consider talks after their South Korean ally president was already strolling around holding hands with the leader of NK.
Obama didn't limit our military involvement over a fucking wink and a nod.
If Trump were President during WW2, he would have just let Hitler steamroll Europe. "Eh, not our fight. Adolph seems like a great fellow. Very talented."
As someone who is not liberal on foreign policy and other matters, perhaps this will be a wake up call to those who dogmatically believe that diplomacy and appeasement is the perfect answer to brutal, power-hungry, murderers.
The trouble with this symbolic declaration is that it leaves the door open for N.Korea to back out of any further arrangements for denuclearization it finds disagreeable without international political backlash. If the US now tries to apply pressure to get real concessions from N.Korea on nuclear weapons, N.Korea can claim the US is violating the spirit of their shared declaration of peace and stability and cancel talks without significantly risking the reimplementation of sanctions. Getting the international community, specifically China which has already signalled it's preparing to ease sanctions in response to this summit, to rally around the ratcheting of sanctions over nonspecific non-compliance of symbolic platitudes will be extremely difficult, if not impossible. And that's not even considering whether Trump just up and ruins the agreement in one of his Twitter rants.
My most favorable reading of this situation on the other hand is that Kim's regime is secretly on the brink of total collapse and N.Korea is much more desperate for security assurances than they appear, and that's why Trump's team feels they need to temporarily buoy Kim's domestic prospects to prevent the region from descending into anarchy before their team can hammer out a concrete arrangement for Kim's safety and the extraction of nuclear armaments. But the chances of that seem pretty slim and the simpler explanation would be that Trump's diplomatic team is a disorganized mess.
My most favorable reading of this situation on the other hand is that Kim's regime is secretly on the brink of total collapse and N.Korea is much more desperate for security assurances than they appear, and that's why Trump's team feels they need to temporarily buoy Kim's domestic prospects to prevent the region from descending into anarchy before their team can hammer out a concrete arrangement for Kim's safety and the extraction of nuclear armaments. But the chances of that seem pretty slim and the simpler explanation would be that Trump's diplomatic team is a disorganized mess.
Imagine looking at a nuclear standoff and seeing steps being taken towards disarmament and thinking "oh no we can't give them a propaganda win let's just keep up the plainly unsustainable status quo"
And you're just as much an armchair negotiator as anyone else, don't pretend to be an expert just because you agree with Rachel Maddow or some shit
You never said that. Im not sure why you think it matters? This is stupid as fuck.
yeah, you could just full on suck the dictators taint like Trump did. look at you strutting, lol
Ehhh NK was fine doing what they've done for years. Trump is the dumbass that upped the rhetoric and scared half the planet. That's the whole reason his dumb ass base is claiming this is some grand peace.
Because this isn't Trump deciding out of the blue to meet with NK.
It's Trump deciding to meet after South and North Korean presidents entered into their own dialogue.
I'm not a "trumper" and I'm pretty sure you are still not reading that post
Iraq is to Iran as SK is to NK, from the NK point of view
Self-admitted warmonger disapproves of peace summit, #resistance libs heartily agree
It was a photo-op, just like the dozen other tries that ended with little to no movement, but previous attempts didn't give the Norks the propaganda coup they desired. So you're here telling us this time it's different because, what, some Rose Twitter dork told you that's the answer?
The fuck are you on about? That's not a sane analogy in the slightest.
I think this will be good for all involved. The North Korean people are hopefully going to get a better life due to this one day. Missiles are hopefully going to stop flying over japan and tensions in the region hopefully will calm down.
Yeah, both leaders have no experience in diplomacy and were talking out their asses. They both promised to commit to maybe doing things that they can never actually do. Trump needed this as a distraction from his legal troubles.
I always figured Trump would get back and the Pentagon would go "nah, we ain't doing that shit.."
He shouldn't have met with him.
This is the second time I've told you that "Nork" is problematic
And I'm not the one who started calling other people "armchair international negotiators" like they were some kind of expert
If either Trump or NK didn't have a long and telling history on empty rhetoric, backing out of deals and being petty narcissists I might think otherwise
And yet NK hasn't backed off a single one of their demands and they already have their photos and may even have their scary exercises stopped.
Iran would have wanted US troops out of Iraq, had Obama met with them, the same way NK wants US troops out of SK.
This is a very mature point of view from you. Definitely does a lot to refute the whole part being dogmatically in favor of "peace talks" at any and all costs.
"Obama probably would have pulled out troops if HE met with Iran! BOTH SIDES!"
Fucking brilliant mate. Really strong argument there.
I agree that Trump has fumbled this and it doesn't look positive.
What steps towards disarmament? You believe NK is going to give up their nukes?
You're still failing to explain why we got the same results this time, that we got the previous dozen times, but we didn't have to elevate a despot's regime with BFF language, at the expense of our regional allies.
Sorry to hear about your hurt fee-fees, too
User Banned (2 Weeks): Insulting other posters. ableism, history of infractions.
Yes, I think talking is better than war, what a sweet summer child I am
Do you have some kind of aphasia or something because that's not what I said
Lets not forget that North Korea was also a signee on the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and only pulled out of it because they were caught with their hand in the reactor, so to speak. Literally nothing they say or write is worth the air or paper it's written on because they'll drop it the moment it's inconvenient to them, if they even do it at all.
Someone says they're not a perma-dove and your binary mind automatically assumes they're a "self-admitted warmonger." Someone says that being dogmatically in favor of one approach to all situations is foolish and your binary mind automatically assumes that person prefers war over talking. It's a pretty child-like approach to seeing the world, you're right on that.
Seems like you've spent so much time in the typical team A versus team B firing squads arguing over the same garbage that you've got nothing else to offer someone who refuses to play that old game.
I believe that any kind of lasting peace has to begin with people talking to one another
Seriously maybe don't let your righteous liberal rage turn you all the way into a right winger
Okay, not a self-admitted warmonger, just a warmonger
How is a summit not a step?
I'm not saying the process is complete, or looks like it's about to be. But, yeah, this is the first step. Which, again, Obama understood wrt Iran.
The Iran deal was an internationally-verifiable agreement. This is "it would be nice if North Korea denuclearised and we shall stop all joint military exercises" - it's a huge concrete concession for a pinky promise.
Thanks, Dad. In the meantime, could you perhaps answer the question you're really trying to weasel away from answering.
It's not a step, it's not a process. It's a dumb photo op with even less commitment and specifics on the deal than the previous failed ones in the 90s and 2000s
Denuclearization is not happening.
What is it about embracing a simple, binary world view in which you can label anyone into neat tidy packages that you find most comforting? The low amount of effort that you have to exert on critical thought and actually debating and contemplating a position?
Yeah but the difference is that democrats don't just say shit because they think it will benefit them or make other people look bad. That's literally the Republican strategy.
Right. The nukes are a dead issue unless you are planning on invading and taking them. I doubt China or Russia lets that happen. This "summit" should've been all about correcting NK's human rights and cyber crime and neither of those were even on the menu. Such a shit show.
We should have dialogue with North Korea because there is no other solution as decades have demonstrated, especially now that they actually do have nuclear weapons.
Trump is not the person to successfully carry out this dialogue.
Does this at least seem reasonable?
Trump is not the person to successfully carry out this dialogue.
Does this at least seem reasonable?
I need this explained to me, preferrably with a credible souce linked.
But the Iran deal couldn't have happened without a serious effort at thawing relationships and opening up the diplomatic process, which is why Obama said what he said about meeting without preconditions.
South Korea is also fine with dropping the exercises in an effort to calm things down, BTW. We don't actually need to be rehearsing bombing the shit out of North Korea right next to North Korea every year.
What question? I don't agree with the premise that we somehow "elevated" Kim by meeting with him. That's neocon logic that I flatly disagree with.
Maybe not. But maybe something else could happen. Maybe NK allows a little bit of trade, a little bit of travel so people can see their family members across the border. Maybe some American media makes its way into North Korean civilians' hands. Maybe it could be like glasnost and perestroika, and small concessions to liberalization open up possibilities for regime change. We should at least be trying.
Douchebags gonna dogpile, like all douchebags do
Which happened because sanctions were crippling Iran to the point of dissent becoming more open. They elected a leader with specific intentions of negotiating.
Oh you just making shit up now? South Korea was blindsided by this. They're not about doing that at all.
How about you get banned from this thread like the 8 others you did in the past?
Trump is gonna be President for two more years (at most.) This process will take decades. It would be a mistake to look at it through the lens of American party politics.
Do you think that "Jap" is racist
So you deny that one of the most important Nork policies is getting propaganda wins to further cement their control over the populace?
Yes or No?