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Thisman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,841
https://www.vox.com/first-person/20...y-conservatives-religion-atheism-james-damore

The cultural uniformity of Silicon Valley
Julie Fredrickson, a longtime tech entrepreneur and conservative Christian, tells me she frequently feels her religious beliefs are out of place in the tech world. "I'm confident that discovering I'm a Calvinist would lead to some awkward conversations I don't necessarily want to have with Silicon Valley folks," says Fredrickson, CEO of the cosmetics company Stowaway. "People who have actually, very carefully considered belief systems, whether religious or otherwise, don't always feel safe expressing it."

"What, really?" is a typical reaction among the entrepreneurial class when she mentions her religiosity, which she avoids bringing up unless asked, she says. She added that she feels the need to explain her faith to reassure previously skeptical parties that she's "rational."

At Google, few co-workers would blink an eye if you told them that you spent the previous weekend attending an electronic music festival in an otter costume, but you might get some funny looks if you admitted you went to church every weekend. I used to prowl around on a listserv of Googlers who considered themselves agnostics, atheists, and skeptics; the responses on a thread about the revelation that a small group of Christian employees had booked a conference room for a weekly prayer group ranged from, "We employ people who pray?" to, "Is that really appropriate to do at work?" (Note: This is a company that hosted Justin Bieber concerts and pie-eating contests at the office.)

Religious conservatives aren't the only people who find themselves shut out of Silicon Valley's hegemonic culture. Thanks to its well-documented worship of youth — which ties back to the same '60s-inspired counterculturalism — ageism is just as pervasive as one might expect.

It is, I think, the industry's most insidious "-ism," in part because of how little attention it gets. There was no hashtag activism movement launched when nearly 300 people joined an age discrimination lawsuit against Google, or when a report found that job opportunities in Silicon Valley started to dry up when employees hit their late 40s. It was even revealed that cosmetic surgery treatments were soaring in the Bay Area on behalf of employees who were afraid of looking their age.

Silicon Valley's biases reveal a deep distaste for anything that could be considered "square." The euphemistic HR term "culture fit" is meant to ensure employees are comfortable with a company's ethos and attitudes. In reality, it's a concept that's more often used to exclude employees, regardless of age, who would prefer a quiet dinner at home to joining their co-workers for Thirsty Thursday.

The people who don't fit today's stereotypically freewheeling Silicon Valley mold, whether due to religious faith, family status, or simply a distaste for partying with their co-workers, are likely in the majority. As my former Google colleague Adam Singer tweeted in the wake of a notorious (and likely sensationalized) Vanity Fair piece about alleged "sex parties" in Silicon Valley, "99.999% of folk in Bay Area don't go to sex parties, microdose LSD at work or drink water from the toilet." (That last item referred to a New York Times article about an outlandish trend of drinking untreated "raw water.") Singer concluded: "But they make for good media stories to talk about the fringes."

He's right. But when the fringes have enormous influence over the culture and its perception, there's a problem. Silicon Valley holds vast economic influence, and it needs to be open to hiring and retaining employees who don't fit its image. Without it, paradoxically, an industry and culture that professes progressivism, open-mindedness, and a devotion to science and empiricism ends up becoming the most exclusionary and prone to magical thinking.
 

haimon

Banned
Nov 22, 2017
291
Yeah, era is a similar place.
All the anti religion posts make it feel really unwelcome to post anything about religion here besides condemnation
 

SwampBastard

The Fallen
Nov 1, 2017
11,109
"What, really?" is a typical reaction among the entrepreneurial class when she mentions her religiosity, which she avoids bringing up unless asked, she says.

I am perfectly okay with a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on religion in the workplace. Leave that shit at home or keep it to yourself, regardless of what you do or don't believe. I've been working in the same office with the same core group of people for almost seven years and I couldn't tell you what any of them believe.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,981
When those guys talk like that it just reminds me of the "How bout them apples" guys from Good Will Hunting.
 

thefit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,243
Good rule in the work place is keep it to yourself. That's personal stuff for personal time.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
I am perfectly okay with a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on religion in the workplace. Leave that shit at home or keep it to yourself, regardless of what you do or don't believe. I've been working in the same office with the same core group of people for almost seven years and I couldn't tell you what any of them believe.
There's plenty of room between hiding your religion and shoving it in others faces. "Don't ask dont tell" just leads to people hiding what they consider to be an important part of there lives. This sounds more like a case of atheist edgelords making people uncomfortable to express their beliefs, not people being unable to be bigots and hide behind their faith.

First time I've heard someone call themselves a Calvinists, though.


I've seen posts in threads involving religion that just insult all religious people by calling them incapable of being truely rational, and "adults who still believe in fairy tales." Some people just feel the need to belittle others.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,228
I work in the software industry as an engineer, but I came from working in tech at a non-profit that was affiliated with the Catholic Church. I was surprised by the religious intolerance of colleagues, who are otherwise progressive liberals (who would consider themselves not bigots and welcoming to different stripes of people)... Yet they'd repeatedly joke about colleagues who were privately religious, even though their religiousness is not part of their work at all. This amounts to comments about people who were Mormon, Orthodox Jews, Catholics, and other religions. It was just sort of expected that if you were an American or European person, you looked down on religious people and joked about them if the topic came up. Or, at least, if you joked about someone's religious identity it wouldn't be remarkable, but if you said something that was pro-religious or religiously tolerant it would turn a lot more heads or be more remarkable. I think it's pretty similar to this community on Era though, where someone can make statements that are completely religious intolerant or full of incorrect generalizations about a religious person or group, but because we're supposedly all informed liberals it's okay. I'm an atheist but it was a cultural ... adaptation for me to get used to it at work and shrug it off, I should have stood up for other people, but I was also new and wanted to fit in and didn't rock the boat. I often feel pretty blessed that I used work with brilliant engineers, developers, scientists, economists, and other people who were deeply religious but still super brilliant and good at their jobs, because I feel like I have a perspective on religious people that is more informed than if I came right to this industry straight from college.

What I think this article may be missing, just from the quotes in the OP (there may be much more in the full article), is that there are a lot of religious people in silicon valley, but just not a lot of religious Americans or Europeans in silicon valley. I work with a very large number of people originally from India who are deeply, personally religious, many are vegans or abstain from alcohol for religious/cultural/spiritual reasons, and I'd imagine silicon valley has similar demographic makeup to my company. I think articles covering Silicon Valley (kind of like what that last quoted section mentions) focus on the extremes and miss some of these obvious cases that don't fit the point of the article or the narrative they want to tell.
 
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Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,333
I am perfectly okay with a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on religion in the workplace. Leave that shit at home or keep it to yourself, regardless of what you do or don't believe. I've been working in the same office with the same core group of people for almost seven years and I couldn't tell you what any of them believe.
So you guys never talk about what you did over the weekend? Never talk about evening plans?
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,306
I am perfectly okay with a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on religion in the workplace. Leave that shit at home or keep it to yourself, regardless of what you do or don't believe. I've been working in the same office with the same core group of people for almost seven years and I couldn't tell you what any of them believe.
I agree, but at the same time unprovoked smug "spaghetti monster" god-bashing is really unnecessary.
 

BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
Ever since I entered the tech industry, it's definitely been dominated by non-religious types. Religious people are unicorns.

I'd find it hard to believe that religious people are being unconsciously or consciously screened out. More like young male often on-the-spectrum developers aren't that prone to religion. Even on my side, UX, haven't met many. I think it's a personality type thing.
 

Badllama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38
It's just like politics. keep your religion to yourself, and the other side should keep their atheism to themselves. Especially in the workplace
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,523
Silicon Valley's biases reveal a deep distaste for anything that could be considered "square." The euphemistic HR term "culture fit" is meant to ensure employees are comfortable with a company's ethos and attitudes. In reality, it's a concept that's more often used to exclude employees, regardless of age, who would prefer a quiet dinner at home to joining their co-workers for Thirsty Thursday.

This is true for tech scene in Cambridge/Kendall Square/MIT as well. Being social is part of the game.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,220
I've seen posts belittling religious people in general. "Adults who still believe in fairy tales," or claiming that they are inherently irrational people. Posters who are either 17 year old edgelords, or never grew out of that phase.
Sorry. I meant to ask what kind of religious things would you want to post that you wouldn't feel comfortable posting. An example of a topic or discussion.
 

Nivash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,467
I fully identify with those tech head atheists in the article on this: if I learn that someone is actively religious, that's going to have an impact on how much I trust their judgement. It's about on the same level as learning that they believe in ghosts, UFOs or conspiracy theories for me. It's superstition. It makes me wonder what other irrational things they might believe in.

EDIT: to be fair I judge overly active "militant atheists" similarly, along with most kinds of political zealotry.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,523
So you guys never talk about what you did over the weekend? Never talk about evening plans?

Unless they had a wedding coming up I certainly couldn't tell you what church any of my coworkers belong to. It's just not something that comes up all that often in office chat. Most people just talk about their kids and comic book movies. Yes, we're that kind of office.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
I fully identify with those tech head atheists in the article on this: if I learn that someone is actively religious, that's going to have an impact on how much I trust their judgement. It's about on the same level as learning that they believe in ghosts, UFOs or conspiracy theories for me. It's superstition. It makes me wonder what other irrational things they might believe in.
Found one!
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,029
Ever since I entered the tech industry, it's definitely been dominated by non-religious types. Religious people are unicorns.

I'd find it hard to believe that religious people are being unconsciously or consciously screened out. More like young male often on-the-spectrum developers aren't that prone to religion. Even on my side, UX, haven't met many. I think it's a personality type thing.

I work in the sciences, and I know a surprising amount of PhDs that are extremely devout Catholics. Like, weekday mass Catholics.
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,101
Arkansas, USA
One of the worst arguments I've ever had with my wife centered on this. I'm totally fine with people criticizing ideological inconsistency, irrational behavior/thinking, and bigotry; but I'm not okay with treating people of faith who are guilty of none of the above things with condescension and scorn. It encourages tribalism and hostility and that is not okay. It makes the world a darker, less enlightened place and is completely counterproductive.
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,109
I don't believe in God but those kind of atheists annoy me. Like--who the fuck cares? Stop acting like a condescending asshole and let people do whatever makes them happy. I have no issues with people praying or talking about God.

Not believing in God doesn't make you more enlightened or smarter than anyone else. It's not a big deal. We're nothing special and I don't want to have a circle jerk with you about how we're so ahead of the curve.
 

carlsojo

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 28, 2017
34,059
San Francisco

I fully identify with those tech head atheists in the article on this: if I learn that someone is actively religious, that's going to have an impact on how much I trust their judgement. It's about on the same level as learning that they believe in ghosts, UFOs or conspiracy theories for me. It's superstition. It makes me wonder what other irrational things they might believe in.

EDIT: to be fair I judge overly active "militant atheists" similarly, along with most kinds of political zealotry.
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
First time I've heard someone call themselves a Calvinists, though.

What? Calvinism is one of the largest branches, it's just also inherently more predisposed to splintering because it doesn't rely on state authority so people tend to call themselves a more specific denomination. It's not uncommon to default to the more general one when talking to people that wouldn't be aware of the differences.
 

BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
I work in the sciences, and I know a surprising amount of PhDs that are extremely devout Catholics. Like, weekday mass Catholics.
That would be a slightly different skillset than developers, wouldn't you agree?

Like I wouldn't say "highly intelligent people" are necessarily less likely to be religious. But I think developer types are. Open question.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
It's like the world has forgotten the adage, "never discuss religion or politics."

These are the types of things people are most passionate about in the world. It's NOT work-room fodder.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking about the atheists who bring it up she references in the article, not the person herself.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
Maybe the religious can contemplate the fact that their belief systems have caused so much grief and death in the world that having to stay quiet about it is a reasonable consequence
Maybe now they get to feel like how their own belief systems treated the LGBT community and others

It's like, "Aww pumpkin! You feelin oppressed? Well, join the club!"
Not even talking extremism here, literally kids kicked out of home because you can't be gay in a Catholic house
 

corasaur

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,989
i didn't realize there were still churches that called themselves calvinist. i only know the term from history classes.

but isn't calvinism the branch of protestantism that's big on predestination? i gotta admit as a non-religious person that the concept of predestination seems incredibly fucked up and kinda seems like taking everything good about Christianity and tossing it out.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
The author has yet to explain to us how this is a problem. Religion is an instrument is violence and oppression.

Shit even uber conservative Bollywood has made movies on the dangers of religious extremism

A majority of people practice religion peacefully. This post reeks of "cosmic brain" bs.

Yet they don't speak out when their religious leaders do something wrong. Dangerous groupthink

Christianity at its heart has always been countercultural, anti-capitalist, compassionate, and culturally tolerant. I think this is more telling of the silicon valley fetishism of old fashioned science-and-only-science fetishism more than actual liberalism

American Christianity is gross though; evangelism and the like go against Christ's teachings
 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,864
Boston
Christianity at its heart has always been countercultural, anti-capitalist, compassionate, and culturally tolerant. I think this is more telling of the silicon valley fetishism of old fashioned science-and-only-science more than actual liberalism
 

Luchashaq

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
4,329
Christianity at its heart has always been countercultural, anti-capitalist, and tolerant. I think this is more telling of the silicon valley fetishism of old fashioned science-and-only-science fetishism more than actual liberalism

This hasn't been true of American Christianity in an obscenely long time.
 

Nivash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,467

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going around insulting people over this or anything. I actually prefer to know nothing at all about what people believe in for this exact reason. But if I found out that you go to church every sunday and say the Lord's Prayer for supper every night, I'm definitely putting a "believes in the supernatural" sticker on your file in my mental filing cabinet. It's probably not going to change anything about how we interact but it's still going to be there in the back of my mind.

It's probably a cultural thing too. I'm Swedish and university educated, I can't come up with a single person I know for sure to be religious apart from some girls I went to high school with ten years ago. At best I've heard rumors about others. I get the impression that most people under 40 who aren't themselves part of some kind of revival movement over here have similar attitudes.
 

EMT0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,104
Christianity at its heart has always been countercultural, anti-capitalist, compassionate, and culturally tolerant. I think this is more telling of the silicon valley fetishism of old fashioned science-and-only-science more than actual liberalism

In what world do people actually follow Christianity like that
 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,864
Boston
This hasn't been true of American Christianity in an obscenely long time.
spoken like somebody who doesn't know anything about christianity besides what has been juxtaposed to the word "Evangelical" in political reporting

edit
granted yes American christianity often aligns with shitty GOP conservatism. at the risk of committing a no-true-scotsman I don't think Jesus would approve of DJT
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
i didn't realize there were still churches that called themselves calvinist. i only know the term from history classes.

The national churches of Scotland and England for two. Those are pretty famous.

but isn't calvinism the branch of protestantism that's big on predestination? i gotta admit as a non-religious person that the concept of predestination seems incredibly fucked up and kinda seems like taking everything good about Christianity and tossing it out.

Calvinism was made by a lawyer. The entire point is that it's supposed to be a logically internally consistent system based on certain axiomatic assumptions. It succeeds pretty well on that front, but predestination is an obvious logic necessity given an omniscient god.

As an aside, most major non Catholic denominations today, outside of Germanic Europe, are Calvinist or derived from Calvinism.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,629
I thought this artile was going to go in another direction. Cause internet atheist can have some serious crossover with some hateful bullshit.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,228

It's very common in this community. What someone is allowed to get away with when it comes to ignorant opinions and expressions, as long as it's about a mainstream religious person or community, is much wider than an ignorant opinion about anything else. I've flagged it occassionally in posts that I thought were just way too hostile or way too much of a generalization to be okay, and in the cases I've flagged it, the mod usually replied that the comment was ok and so I just stopped flagging it. It's not worth it and generally I'd imagine the management/mods/admins agrees with the hostile undertones against religious people on the forum. Generally, I like the community more so than I dislike the general opennness to antagonism against religious people and religions. I'm an atheist but was fortunate enough to have tons of very religious friends/colleagues and so I've been sensitive to generalizations against religious people for the sake of their religiousness.

Distilling it down, on this forum you could say something very ignorant and borderline hostile about people who like Japanese manga and you'd get a lot of flak for it and probably get a warning from the mods. Yet, at the same time, you could say something very ignorant and borderline hostile about people who consider themselves Mormons, and you wouldn't get any flak for it. If someone did call you out on it, others would probably join in to defend the original remark and tell that person calling you out to not be so sensitive or "Have you ever heard of Mountain Meadows???" or something unrelated to justify the original ignorant/hostile remark. That is to say, ignorant generalizations of religious people is usually okay, but ignorant generalizations about, say, people who collect FunkoPop figurines is a high offense.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
User warned: making generalizations of religious people
I'm not gonna go around and be shitty to religious people just because, but i do think less of them. I see religion as nothing more than a dangerous superstition and i don't really understand what's wrong with this stance like some people in this thread seem to think. Maybe religious people should open their eyes to the harm their fairy tale of choice has done to millions of people.
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
Christianity at its heart has always been countercultural, anti-capitalist, compassionate, and culturally tolerant. I think this is more telling of the silicon valley fetishism of old fashioned science-and-only-science more than actual liberalism

Religion has no heart outside of its practice. One of the major theorists of Capitalism attributes its historical creation in great part to Calvinism, so I think it's pretty weird to say its categorically anti-capitalist.
 
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