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gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,103
Agree!

Although for me it created a disconnect (not the genders), because in the first game I killed a lot of people. So Ellie is a Lara Croft lite in the way she is a serial killer as well although on a smaller level.
Not to disrespect any troops, but with the kissing she seems too... innocent? The first game should leave her traumatized, not behaving like a insecure teenager again.
I really respect the story but I believe this is what what they call the Ludonarrative-Uncharted effect, where the main character is a "really good hearted, stand up, serial killer kind of guy "
So Ellie acting innocent is different from her slicing people's throats like a pro in the first game..

I can see her love being killed and Ellie becoming a serial killer afterwards though, and I hope she never goes back to being normal, again, again because that is what killed Rose of the Tomb Raider for me...

In ellie world she is very far from being a serial killer .
I don't really think you can compare her to lara .
 

Transistor

Vodka martini, dirty, with Tito's please
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,127
Washington, D.C.
Boy, I have to admit that following E3 on ERA has been kind of.... depressing?

Cyberpunk is too bright, TLOU2 is too violent, Anthem is always online, Ghost of Tsushima is too Assassin's Creed, Shadows Die Twice is uninspired, Spiderman is too scripted, Death Stranding is boring, Odyssey features bland greek people in a bland greek setting, Devil May Cry is too contemporary and emo... The negativity is mind-boggling.

Some threads are borderline insanity. The RE2: REmake one for example. A HUGE amount of people is complaining that it doesn't really look like a game from literally TWENTY YEARS AGO. Many say that they should have followed the same ethos they used for a remake that was released SIXTEEN YEARS AGO. There's 4 years between RE2 and REmake, and there's 16 years between REmake and RE2, and you have people complaining about the OTS camera, the graphics being too realistic or Capcom not using a voice actress that is her mid forties to dub a character who is 19.

It's nuts.
Preach it brother. I'm so happy with the ridiculous amount of stuff shown at this conference. Sure there might have been a presentation misstep here or there, but the overall quality and amount of games is just wonderful.

Fuck the haters. Every conference gets a good score from me this year, which has never happened in the last.
 

Segafreak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,756
I think Part 2 is ultimately gonna be about Ellie saving Joel, the new girl will die like so many in TLOU. Ellie's gonna make all the wrong choices to save him and in the end it's gonna be about Ellie and Joel.
 

Creamium

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,692
Belgium
oh yeah, i feel ya. could it be an age thing? i'm 35 and i absolutely loved the Sony conference, while i read the really quite impressively negative outpouring of reactions in the thread.. i felt so out of touch, like am i watching different games being shown or what? hah. in my mind i'm always comparing new games to the other stuff i've played through the decades, and A LOT of what i've seen this E3 compares very favorably..

just me? anyone else getting older and being able to enjoy games more? the shit we're getting now is just wow, i couldn't even dream of this level of quality in the 80s/90s as a kid.

I think it's selective. Sure there are more critical reactions but also a lot of positive posts. Of course those don't stick out that much. Also, it's okay to be critical of a game or post your concerns, as long as you're not drive-by trolling. As impressive as these games are, there are also plenty of valid issues people have. None of these showings are perfect.

Plus it comes with Left Behind, which feels even more essential after this trailer.

Definitely.
 

Glasfrut

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,534
Boy, I have to admit that following E3 on ERA has been kind of.... depressing?

Cyberpunk is too bright, TLOU2 is too violent, Anthem is always online, Ghost of Tsushima is too Assassin's Creed, Shadows Die Twice is uninspired, Spiderman is too scripted, Death Stranding is boring, Odyssey features bland greek people in a bland greek setting, Devil May Cry is too contemporary and emo... The negativity is mind-boggling.

Some threads are borderline insanity. The RE2: REmake one for example. A HUGE amount of people is complaining that it doesn't really look like a game from literally TWENTY YEARS AGO. Many say that they should have followed the same ethos they used for a remake that was released SIXTEEN YEARS AGO. There's 4 years between RE2 and REmake, and there's 16 years between REmake and RE2, and you have people complaining about the OTS camera, the graphics being too realistic or Capcom not using a voice actress that is her mid forties to dub a character who is 19.

It's nuts.

Thank you!
 

Deleted member 2172

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,577
Boy, I have to admit that following E3 on ERA has been kind of.... depressing?

Cyberpunk is too bright, TLOU2 is too violent, Anthem is always online, Ghost of Tsushima is too Assassin's Creed, Shadows Die Twice is uninspired, Spiderman is too scripted, Death Stranding is boring, Odyssey features bland greek people in a bland greek setting, Devil May Cry is too contemporary and emo... The negativity is mind-boggling.

Some threads are borderline insanity. The RE2: REmake one for example. A HUGE amount of people is complaining that it doesn't really look like a game from literally TWENTY YEARS AGO. Many say that they should have followed the same ethos they used for a remake that was released SIXTEEN YEARS AGO. There's 4 years between RE2 and REmake, and there's 16 years between REmake and RE2, and you have people complaining about the OTS camera, the graphics being too realistic or Capcom not using a voice actress that is her mid forties to dub a character who is 19.

It's nuts.
Im with you dude, its depressing as fuck going through these threads.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,103
The gameplay they showed looked amazing and I'm sure I will end up playing this but so far from a story perspective they have failed to justify the game's existence to me.

TLOU1 was such a perfectly self contained story; even though I loved it I also came away feeling there was no creative impetus for them to make a sequel. It's possible I'm wrong and they have a good direction for the story but if so that's the case they haven't showed it to us yet, which is tempering my excitement a lot. On top of that, while I have no issue playing a violent game, the degree to which what they've shown revels in the gore is kind of turn off.

I am the opposite .
I hope they do it like GOW where we had hardly any idea of the story or set pieces .
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
Boy, I have to admit that following E3 on ERA has been kind of.... depressing?

Cyberpunk is too bright, TLOU2 is too violent, Anthem is always online, Ghost of Tsushima is too Assassin's Creed, Shadows Die Twice is uninspired, Spiderman is too scripted, Death Stranding is boring, Odyssey features bland greek people in a bland greek setting, Devil May Cry is too contemporary and emo... The negativity is mind-boggling.

Some threads are borderline insanity. The RE2: REmake one for example. A HUGE amount of people is complaining that it doesn't really look like a game from literally TWENTY YEARS AGO. Many say that they should have followed the same ethos they used for a remake that was released SIXTEEN YEARS AGO. There's 4 years between RE2 and REmake, and there's 16 years between REmake and RE2, and you have people complaining about the OTS camera, the graphics being too realistic or Capcom not using a voice actress that is her mid forties to dub a character who is 19.

It's nuts.

tumblr_noy5v5Vk2R1slj24go1_500.gif
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
So, how does the lgbt experience play out in this world for Ellie on a themetic level?

TLOU1 used the supporting characters and situations to peer into Joel's personal motivations and philosophy. How does that play out for Ellie when, presumably, she won't be carrying it on her sleeve during some of the more tenuous moments in the game? For instance, her sexuality never comes into play in TLOU because it's largely irrelevant until the end, and even that is nuanced because she doesn't elaborate any further on her relationship with Riley other than she was the first significant person in her life to die.

Also, given the state of the world, how many lgbt people even exist in the first place? Would there be systematic persecution of homosexuals in a world where humanity is scattered into limited pockets? Wasn't there around 30 people in Tommy's community? So if homosexuals account for 4% of the human population in real life, how does that bear out in this fictional context, where most of humanity has been wiped out by the initial pandemic? Do they essentially go back into the closet? Or, do they become resigned at the prospect of no suitable mates in this world?

So, that being said, if Ellie's sexuality were to be an issue where it could endanger her, how does that play out if there aren't any widescale lynchings going on? What would happen to her if David or any of his acolytes became aware of this? Would it have put her at even more risk of being sexually abused than what she was already experiencing, or would it have possibly hastened their resolve in murdering her that evening?
 
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Zaro

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,388
Boy, I have to admit that following E3 on ERA has been kind of.... depressing?

Cyberpunk is too bright, TLOU2 is too violent, Anthem is always online, Ghost of Tsushima is too Assassin's Creed, Shadows Die Twice is uninspired, Spiderman is too scripted, Death Stranding is boring, Odyssey features bland greek people in a bland greek setting, Devil May Cry is too contemporary and emo... The negativity is mind-boggling.

Some threads are borderline insanity. The RE2: REmake one for example. A HUGE amount of people is complaining that it doesn't really look like a game from literally TWENTY YEARS AGO. Many say that they should have followed the same ethos they used for a remake that was released SIXTEEN YEARS AGO. There's 4 years between RE2 and REmake, and there's 16 years between REmake and RE2, and you have people complaining about the OTS camera, the graphics being too realistic or Capcom not using a voice actress that is her mid forties to dub a character who is 19.

It's nuts.

And it's not over yet
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,954
TLOU's combat was widely praised. People just like to harp on the 'puzzle' sections that were barely in the game.

No, it wasn't.

Uncharted 4 and TLOU have the best gameplay in the genre.

UC4 is awesome to play there is not another TPS like it around .
With it fast pace vertical gameplay .

No, they are not. UC4 is a slog to play, compare the movement and possibilities of play of Drake to Venom Snake and it's night and day. And, the full breadth of freedom and traversal mechanics in BoTW blows UC4's little grapple hook out of the water. UC4 is actually probably the worst playing Uncharted in the series, tied only with UC3 and its wonky aiming on release. Too much of UC4 feels like the game plays itself as opposed to actions conducted by the player.
 

ishan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,192
Not to shit on ppl but why are so many ppl focussed on the kiss. we all knew elli was lesbian. Is this such a surprise to ppl and if so why? It was blatantly obvious to me after lb .

Im seeing posts like its been made explicit now. It was quite explicit back then . I can get when ppl say dumbledore was not but elli has been pretty clear.

On topic, i think in general this game will be divisive. But in a good way . As in not that it'll be bad but rather it will make ppl think various things (about violence etc) . Think were heading for a bigger trainwreck than was joel's decision good or bad . I think narratively this game will explore some things which will make us very uncomfortable. (About violence, what we will do for ppl we like etc, limits we push ourselves etc)
 

RocknRola

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,195
Portugal
So, how does the lgbt experience play out in this world for Ellie on a themetic level?

TLOU1 used the supporting characters and situations to peer into Joel's personal motivations and philosophy. How does that play out for Ellie when, presumably, she won't be carrying it on her sleeve during some of the more tenuous moments in the game? For instance, her sexuality never comes into play in TLOU because it's largely irrelevant until the end, and even that is nuanced because she doesn't elaborate any further on her relationship with Riley other than she was the first significant person in her life to die.

Also, given the state of the world, how many lgbt people even exist in the first place? Would there be systematic persecution of homosexuals in a world where humanity is scattered into limited pockets? Wasn't there around 30 people in Tommy's community? So if homosexuals account for 4% of the human population in real life, how does that bear out in this fictional context, where most of humanity has been wiped out by the initial pandemic?

Those all sound like "play the game to find out" questions. It's a story heavy game, answering too much before the release can break the experience.
 

Jenea

Banned
Mar 14, 2018
1,568
Man, i hate reading all these theorries about dead Joel and Ellie looking for revenge because of it.
After all that shit we passed through in the first game, i want to see him alive.
 

Sturm

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
315
ND Play in another league. What they do this study is at another level of the rest. It's amazing
 

Buddeh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
793
I've seen you do it.

It's possible that you genuinely don't believe you do, but everything you have said thus far is a pattern that has played out pretty much any progressive idea has been presented in mainstream media.

"I'm not homophobic..." Or racist, or sexist, or transphobic, it changes depending on whatever the particular progressive idea being presented is. "...but..." because the previous sentence is always an effort to try to appear reasoned before going into the actual argument "...I don't know, I just don't feel this is natural. It's like they're pushing an agenda." And then you become hypercritical, trying to magnify minute or even imagined errors into something way bigger than it actually is, a standard that isn't really applied in otherwise typical critical analysis. It's all pretty rote.

I'd like to address the agenda thing in particular. Assuming you're being disingenous, it's just code. The false argument being presented here is that somehow a straight romance is agenda-less. The truth is, any form of narrative is a series of decisions made by a person, and the purpose of a narrative is to provoke some kind of reaction. The agenda of Harry Potter is to capitalize on people's desire to enter into a magical version of school. The agenda of Uncharted' Elena is to play on presumed male audience's desire to enter into a romance with a hot blonde woman. There's more to it than that, of course, but there is no narrative without an author trying to actually DO something that makes you react some way, and straight romances do that as well.

But no one ever goes "That author had such an agenda trying to push that Elena-Drake romance on me." Even if people don't like the romance or find it unbelievable or bad (twilight or 50 shades being easy targets that come to mind), nobody ever puts the criticism of the author having an agenda because of course they fucking did, they're storytellers. The agenda is to play on people's desires of seeing a romance come into fruition. But when, for instance, the subject matter is something like gay people, agenda's come up as if they are not the part and parcel of the concept of having something to say in a story. As if stories were real and not fictional, man made things that have real people making deliberate decisions of that universe. So yes, Ellie and Dina kissing is agenda driven. The agenda is playing to people's desire to see a relationship blossom to fruition, which is functionally identical to hundreds of thousands of stories before it, except this one's gay.


But lets give you the benefit of the doubt. Lets assume you're genuine and what you say are your best attempts to articulate how you actually feel. Assuming that is true, you're still giving off a homophobic vibe, just one in which you aren't willing to cop to the idea that you are in some way uncomfortable with the depiction. In a way, it's not unnatural that you would be. Part of benefit of experiencing new types of stories is that you see things that are truly new, if only in a slight way. For example, remember back in the second trailer, we had a thread where people discussed how they were uncomfortable with how the trailer showed the characters brutally killing the woman who was about to kill the new cast of characters? If that character had been male, that conversation wouldn't have happened because we are used to dehumanized male enemies, it's....kinda wierd seeing female enemies being treated with that kind of brutality and being so casual about it. It's only a slight change, a female evil bastard instead of a male, but it's genuinely new, or at least as far as mainstream stuff goes, and that means we process it differently, and that process can be sometimes uncomfortable. In that way, I wouldn't wholly blame you for being slightly uncomfortable at seeing a gay couple kissing, especially since it's being framed as not for male titillation as so much lesbianism is (and why it's more readily accepted than male gayness), but for gay women.

That's just gonna feel weird at first to most people, whether they're deliberate homophobes or not. And that's okay. We've lived our entire lives in a culture that has pushed more the more malicious agenda that being gay is a sickness for a very long time. It's gonna take a while before we work everything of that out through our cultural system. Progressive storytelling is to work to that purpose. It's goal is to make the idea of a gay relationship normal. There is always going to be an agenda to gay relationships in storytelling, but maybe in the future that agenda will be as invisible to people as the agenda behind straight relationships is now. But until we get there, we have to be honest to ourselves. It's not, and that's means it's gonna be new, and we all need adjustment to new things.

Of course, this is all my own conjecture. I'm not accusing you of anything or even telling you you necessarily did anything wrong. I just think this "It's about ethics in games journalism the art" line you've got going is horseshit. Intentionally, unintentionally, who knows, but it plays into the exact pattern I've seen a thousand times at this point.

giphy.gif
 

Joker13

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
830
this forum is fucking depressing man


all these great looking games and all people can do is complaining and complaining just for the sake of complaining

some of comments are straight up nitpicking for no fucking reason
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,890
So, how does the lgbt experience play out in this world for Ellie on a themetic level?

TLOU1 used the supporting characters and situations to peer into Joel's personal motivations and philosophy. How does that play out for Ellie when, presumably, she won't be carrying it on her sleeve during some of the more tenuous moments in the game? For instance, her sexuality never comes into play in TLOU because it's largely irrelevant until the end, and even that is nuanced because she doesn't elaborate any further on her relationship with Riley other than she was the first significant person in her life to die.

Also, given the state of the world, how many lgbt people even exist in the first place? Would there be systematic persecution of homosexuals in a world where humanity is scattered into limited pockets? Wasn't there around 30 people in Tommy's community? So if homosexuals account for 4% of the human population in real life, how does that bear out in this fictional context, where most of humanity has been wiped out by the initial pandemic? Do they essentially go back into the closet? Or, do they become resigned at the prospect of no suitable mates in this world?

So, that being said, if Ellie's sexuality were to be an issue where it could endanger her, how does that play out if there aren't any widescale lynchings going on?


Are you just asking some questions?

I mean, it's fictional. Representation matters. Here we are.
 

Richter1887

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Not to shit on ppl but why are so many ppl focussed on the kiss. we all knew elli was lesbian. Is this such a surprise to ppl and if so why? It was blatantly obvious to me after lb .

Im seeing posts like its been made explicit now. It was quite explicit back then . I can get when ppl say dumbledore was not but elli has been pretty clear.

On topic, i think in general this game will be divisive. But in a good way . As in not that it'll be bad but rather it will make ppl think various things (about violence etc) . Think were heading for a bigger trainwreck than was joel's decision good or bad . I think narratively this game will explore some things which will make us very uncomfortable. (About violence, what we will do for ppl we like etc, limits we push ourselves etc)
I don't get it as well.

Not once did I look at the screen and became surprised.
 
Nov 19, 2017
48
The trailer/gameplay looked amazing.

That said, TLOU was all about Joel+Ellie. If Joel is dead or not in most of the game, I'm hard-out.

Edit: to clarify, I don't mind if he isn't the main playable character, but he should be there. Also, I get that he was mentioned, but the dance scene was most likely a flash-back.
 

EssCee

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,130
Joel isn't the one that Ellie goes on a revenge/killing spree for

It's probably gonna be bc of this new character Dina - she'll be the one who gets killed. Just repeating the cycle of when Ellie "finds love" it gets taken away from her
 

Shoot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,532
Video game violence is getting to a point where I may need a barf bag. I am not complaining, however. That sort of violence in films helps create tension and fear for me: two emotions that I look for in a survival horror game.

The game is looking incredible. I just wish Naughty Dog would tell us what it is about.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,020
Apparently the fireflies would've found a cure if they sacrificed Ellie. :| That puts a lot of their actions into context since it wasn't a straight up delusion.

As far as I recall that's incorrect. If I remember it correctly the recordings around the hospital that Joel picks up state that they'd tried the same thing on people very similar to Ellie without success.
 

Crackhead_Bob

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,865
Are you just asking some questions?

I mean, it's fictional. Representation matters. Here we are.

I'm just curious how that plays out. I'm eager to find out and was wondering what anyone else thinks. I wonder how religion plays in this world. How the military operates. If any countries were spares this pandemic. What everyday consumer goods have become contraband. How does race relations operate in this world. Would a white supremecist society flourish in this world. What innovations to science, technology, and the arts would emerge in the 3 decades since the outbreak. Economics, ect..

I recall ND released art work depicting an afflicted England a year after TLOU was released.
 
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BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,954
Boy, I have to admit that following E3 on ERA has been kind of.... depressing?

Cyberpunk is too bright, TLOU2 is too violent, Anthem is always online, Ghost of Tsushima is too Assassin's Creed, Shadows Die Twice is uninspired, Spiderman is too scripted, Death Stranding is boring, Odyssey features bland greek people in a bland greek setting, Devil May Cry is too contemporary and emo... The negativity is mind-boggling.

Some threads are borderline insanity. The RE2: REmake one for example. A HUGE amount of people is complaining that it doesn't really look like a game from literally TWENTY YEARS AGO. Many say that they should have followed the same ethos they used for a remake that was released SIXTEEN YEARS AGO. There's 4 years between RE2 and REmake, and there's 16 years between REmake and RE2, and you have people complaining about the OTS camera, the graphics being too realistic or Capcom not using a voice actress that is her mid forties to dub a character who is 19.

It's nuts.

I feel the exact same way, it's fucking depressing. Then again this is the same board where every other week on EtcEra somebody is making a thread talking about suicide. Why is everyone so damn down on everything? I may be a bit critical of Naughty Dog combat, but I don't play their games for stellar gameplay. TLOU2 looked great. Cyberpunk will be GOAT. Death Stranding is still blowing my mind. Shadows Die Twice is FROM Software, they always deliver. I'm suddenly interested in Spider-Man again. The only games I'm meh on is Ghosts (mainly because FROM is going to eat their lunch and that combat seems too Witcherish) and Odyseey (I'm done with AC after Origins). Still, impressive showings all around.
 

-PyramidSong

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
Argentina
No, it wasn't.





No, they are not. UC4 is a slog to play, compare the movement and possibilities of play of Drake to Venom Snake and it's night and day. And, the full breadth of freedom and traversal mechanics in BoTW blows UC4's little grapple hook out of the water. UC4 is actually probably the worst playing Uncharted in the series, tied only with UC3 and its wonky aiming on release. Too much of UC4 feels like the game plays itself as opposed to actions conducted by the player.

Lmao
 

immortal-joe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,417
No, it wasn't.





No, they are not. UC4 is a slog to play, compare the movement and possibilities of play of Drake to Venom Snake and it's night and day. And, the full breadth of freedom and traversal mechanics in BoTW blows UC4's little grapple hook out of the water. UC4 is actually probably the worst playing Uncharted in the series, tied only with UC3 and its wonky aiming on release. Too much of UC4 feels like the game plays itself as opposed to actions conducted by the player.


Trolling in full swing. TLou not widely praised for gameplay.

You people move in hives this time of year.
 
this forum is fucking depressing man


all these great looking games and all people can do is complaining and complaining just for the sake of complaining

some of comments are straight up nitpicking for no fucking reason

Seriously. I'm not even reading anything on gaming side E3 related except first posts with info. That Cyberpunk thread soured me, that pessimism.
 

Dan Thunder

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14,020
Does anyone else think TLOU2 looks too boring? I didn't want a sequel and based on this reveal I was right. There's not much they can do to improve on the first game.
This is no dig at you but I always find that an odd statement. In most games, certainly in the first title of a series, there are usually plenty of ways to tell a different story or improve how the game plays. Look at the difference between UC1 & UC2. The story wrapped up nicely at the end of 1 but 2 blew it clean out of the water in terms of quality and narrative.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
No, it wasn't.





No, they are not. UC4 is a slog to play, compare the movement and possibilities of play of Drake to Venom Snake and it's night and day. And, the full breadth of freedom and traversal mechanics in BoTW blows UC4's little grapple hook out of the water. UC4 is actually probably the worst playing Uncharted in the series, tied only with UC3 and its wonky aiming on release. Too much of UC4 feels like the game plays itself as opposed to actions conducted by the player.
If the scores both these games hold (especially TLOU) from both critics and users don't mean "widely praised", then what exactly would you call it? Do you realize TLOU holds a more favorable userscore than BOTW by quite a significant margin? Which, for metacritic is saying quite a bit.
 

Segafreak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,756
The trailer/gameplay looked amazing.

That said, TLOU was all about Joel+Ellie. If Joel is dead or not in most of the game, I'm hard-out.

Edit: to clarify, I don't mind if he isn't the main playable character, but he should be there.
I expect Part 2 to be about Ellie and Joel in the end. Their father/daughter relationship will outlast everyone in this game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,884
I think the graphics and animation are getting to a point that they are so realistic that people are having a hard time watching them. It's a curious time when they are only gonna get more and more realistic. What do you think about the violence in RE2? Granted we didn't get a good look, but do you feel differently?

Yeah agree this will become more of a problem on PS5 as graphics and animation take another step up.