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Dan and Carrie Floyd are leaving Extra Credits [UPDATE: Sexual harrassment claims]
- Thread starter chaobreaker
- Start date
Yeah this seems like a MASSIVE heel turn for the guy that runs the channel. Not absolving anyone of guilt I just want to know more . If it is true this is a classic case of don't sh*t where you eat. It's no excuse to treat someone bad but working with someone directly or as a subordinate has to be tough after a failed relationship.
Actually, it is an great decision to point that out; it will remove any doubt about the HR research; to doubt it would be like saying "I don't trust a female" so people are more inclined to believe in the HR research. Even though it would cast doubt on another female, the accusing female in this case.
In any way, I hope they get it sorted out soon. HR research or not, the guy sounds like a sick individual for making his employee work with him after he was romantically involved. As the boss he has power over her, so he should have resigned after the relationship ended, so the woman would have the freedom to keep working, or leave herself.
Just found out about this stuff going on by chance on Twitter, here's some new threads (read the whole threads, not just the one linked post) from @elan
https://twitter.com/LanielanLand/status/1005287294608109568
as well as @cavni
https://twitter.com/Cavni/status/1005504205170229248
and the official statement by EC, in which they pretty much say nothing instead of the standard "we take xy very seriously" response.
https://becausegamesmatter.com/statement-regarding-harassment
This went completely past me by now, didn't expect this at all. Then again, Extra Credits to me always was one of multiple side channels I visited that seemed progressive, interesting, very creative and helpful, and I never actually checked who's behind it and what they're doing elsewhere.
edit: Oh I'm sorry, some of this has been posted already lol. Somehow I read the last post being posted by last week, probably was still on the first few posts or something. Sorry!
https://twitter.com/LanielanLand/status/1005287294608109568
as well as @cavni
https://twitter.com/Cavni/status/1005504205170229248
and the official statement by EC, in which they pretty much say nothing instead of the standard "we take xy very seriously" response.
https://becausegamesmatter.com/statement-regarding-harassment
This went completely past me by now, didn't expect this at all. Then again, Extra Credits to me always was one of multiple side channels I visited that seemed progressive, interesting, very creative and helpful, and I never actually checked who's behind it and what they're doing elsewhere.
edit: Oh I'm sorry, some of this has been posted already lol. Somehow I read the last post being posted by last week, probably was still on the first few posts or something. Sorry!
Considering the channel has basically revolved around James Portnow since day 1, there's zero chance he's getting sacked.
Food for thought regarding the EC response and the results of their HR investigation: as fate would have it I know a person who left a company not long ago due to massive amounts of racist and homophobic harassment by an executive. The company performed a "totally independent" HR investigation that found no evidence. Then the harassment resumed the day after the investigation ended.
Later, it came out that the totally independent investigator was in league with the company's executive board.
Later, it came out that the totally independent investigator was in league with the company's executive board.
I loved extra credits but then their corporate apologism and dishonest arguments for lootboxes really really put me off. Haven't watched their videos since.
The situation here seems tough. If the HR firm found no misconduct, not sure what they should do...
The situation here seems tough. If the HR firm found no misconduct, not sure what they should do...
Nah. Arguments in favor were dishonest and fear mongering industry talking points.
Basically, without loot box profits the games you love will disappear. Dishonest, lootboxes implemented in massively profitable games. It's not about making up costs, it's about more profit.
Other argument used was, if regulators get involved, you will also losw the games you love. I don't think I have to explain what kind of typical BS right wing taking point that is.
Regarding OP, I'm confused. The tweets reference a Tyler but James is the accused harrasser? Any more specific details somewhere?
You are reading the wrong Twitter thread.
The Tyler Thread describe a situation, the James thread says "this kind of situation is why I quit ; the man in my situation is James".
Also, arguments about money lacking depends on the context. Simplifying game development as only AAA publishing will make you blind to the smaller people.
Sucks, I liked the team a lot, seemed fo be a tight fit...
I haven't caught up with the latest episodes, but i've probably watched all of them till a couple of months ago. I've heard someone else on the mic once and wondered what happened
That tweet isn't really self explanatory. Didn't realize how much potential misinformation is going around. That title thread alone could ruin him. Maybe he did it though.
I haven't caught up with the latest episodes, but i've probably watched all of them till a couple of months ago. I've heard someone else on the mic once and wondered what happened
Well if HR is independent from the company that's probably not the case. Still, not surprised they didn't find anything. Though having had an office relationship, all communication is hard to hide, especially if the other side owns it as well.
Wait, is it that James knew about this "Tyler situation" and didn't help hard enough?
That tweet isn't really self explanatory. Didn't realize how much potential misinformation is going around. That title thread alone could ruin him. Maybe he did it though.
This is crazy though.
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Thanks for clarification.
That situation seems rough, but also a bit vague regarding abuse specifically. Boss getting romantically involved with employee and then employee feeling pressure and fear of retaliation. Employee leaves.
...oh god dammit. This makes uncomfortable sense of the way James presented himself over the years; I wish the best for Dan and Carrie, but this is going to overshadow their departure with good reason.
This one feels like it sums up a lot of the frustration (and one of the causes) of the situation:
Edit:
Dan Floyd, who's among those that just left.
I'm not sure I understand, did Dan (the voice of EC) and her coworker leave because these allegations came to light? The first tweet (this Elan person) says she was harassed at ANET, was she the one harassed at EC too?
Not trying to stir any shit here, I'm just confused since I hardly ever watch EC and am not familiar with their staff or who is who on the videos.
Not trying to stir any shit here, I'm just confused since I hardly ever watch EC and am not familiar with their staff or who is who on the videos.
That's a shame. EC has been around for a long time with thoughtful takes on a lot of subjects. We could use more channels like that in the gaming community, not less.
HR specializes in not finding anything, so it's hard to see that as exoneration. The fact that two people are leaving makes me think there's something there.
HR specializes in not finding anything, so it's hard to see that as exoneration. The fact that two people are leaving makes me think there's something there.
OP
OP
This is so much to take in. I'm going to unsub until James is gone.
Unless Dan is straight up lying than the departure looked amicable.
Unless Dan is straight up lying than the departure looked amicable.
From the tweet edited in by a mod, and upon skimming through the chain, she states "James Portnow harrassed me out of my job at Extra Credits." So far nothing about Dan, but she said people were "blind" to the harrassment because they saw James as a trusted friend and James quote "drove out the few who did" (see through his subterfuge I assume)
Edit: Cleared up post.
Even the original EC videos were based of of James' texts, it felt odd how over the years so much became centered about him, including the promotion of speaking engagements by him at the end of the videos.
Some of the game-related videos have gone in less satisfactory directions, but I've enjoyed it when they branched out into stuff like history and sci-fi... makes it tricky to consider unsubbing - then again, there are plenty of YT channels I'm unsubbed to that I still get notifications about since I check them often anyway.
It's also been weird how the EC Twitter often focuses on plural Dans (maybe trying to gradually downplay the original one?), and lately some posts are basically in the voice of the new presenter, which feels weirder than simply having a new presenter...
Looks like Dan will go forth with something he mentioned some time ago in Extra Frames about analyzing animation for all Final Fantasy games, including XI (which most skip in series overviews), so I'll be looking forward to that.
Some of the game-related videos have gone in less satisfactory directions, but I've enjoyed it when they branched out into stuff like history and sci-fi... makes it tricky to consider unsubbing - then again, there are plenty of YT channels I'm unsubbed to that I still get notifications about since I check them often anyway.
It's also been weird how the EC Twitter often focuses on plural Dans (maybe trying to gradually downplay the original one?), and lately some posts are basically in the voice of the new presenter, which feels weirder than simply having a new presenter...
Looks like Dan will go forth with something he mentioned some time ago in Extra Frames about analyzing animation for all Final Fantasy games, including XI (which most skip in series overviews), so I'll be looking forward to that.
Welcome to reality. You eventually discover that everything is somehow tainted with something unpleasant.
Really sad if these allegations are true, though. I've respected EC for what they did, even though I didn't always agree with what they said (like with regard to lootboxes).
Didn't see this mentioned elsewhere in the thread, but there's some more people claiming James had behaved similarly with them:
https://twitter.com/russpitts/status/1005643885148868609
https://twitter.com/Gaohmee/status/1005644159233880064
https://twitter.com/russpitts/status/1005643885148868609
https://twitter.com/Gaohmee/status/1005644159233880064
People needs serious behavioural therapy when they are younger
Or schools need more funding
Something has to give, too many people growing up to be arseholes
Edumacate, even if Repubs and other arseholes try to stop us!
Or schools need more funding
Something has to give, too many people growing up to be arseholes
Edumacate, even if Repubs and other arseholes try to stop us!
Talk is cheap when speaking in hindsight and perhaps its just me but ever since James threw Totalbiscuit under the bus over a rumor of him being some sort of Gamergate "leader" I've had trouble taking his opinions seriously. TB had a significant role in helping them when they left the Escapist, gave them plenty of exposure and had James as a guest in his podcast. What James did or said about him during the GG debacle was lowly, specially now in the light of these allegations.
I do appreciate the work he has done in Extra Credits, I do think he is a knowledgeable game designer and while I may not always agree with how solutions are presented in that series I think they do a good job of breaking down the issue into simple problems and exposing them in a way that is unoffensive and constructive.
But now. when I think of the great number of artists that have come and gone over the years, particularly the female ones, or each time there were guest artists... I can't help but wonder if these allegations that are now surfacing had anything to do with them. There was a point in Extra Credits where they'd mention why an artists was leaving, I remember one of the earlier artists (Carrie? I think was her name) had some surgery so she needed to step away, but since then the artist of de jour never seemed to stick. Maybe I'm wrong in that regard because I only sporadically watch Extra Credits nowadays, I tend to follow Extra History more, but that's just the impression I got.
Edit: looks like it wasn't just an impression I had :/
This sucks... Extra Credits/History seemed like it was one of those few web series that I felt like I could watch without any reservations and now I don't think that's the case anymore.
I do appreciate the work he has done in Extra Credits, I do think he is a knowledgeable game designer and while I may not always agree with how solutions are presented in that series I think they do a good job of breaking down the issue into simple problems and exposing them in a way that is unoffensive and constructive.
But now. when I think of the great number of artists that have come and gone over the years, particularly the female ones, or each time there were guest artists... I can't help but wonder if these allegations that are now surfacing had anything to do with them. There was a point in Extra Credits where they'd mention why an artists was leaving, I remember one of the earlier artists (Carrie? I think was her name) had some surgery so she needed to step away, but since then the artist of de jour never seemed to stick. Maybe I'm wrong in that regard because I only sporadically watch Extra Credits nowadays, I tend to follow Extra History more, but that's just the impression I got.
Edit: looks like it wasn't just an impression I had :/
This sucks... Extra Credits/History seemed like it was one of those few web series that I felt like I could watch without any reservations and now I don't think that's the case anymore.
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Sorry for butting in but I feel like this is a relevant opinion from someone that had first-hand contact with James:
Soraya is one of the people that worked on Extra History and filmed a bunch of the "Lies" episodes with James (and I think with Dan Floyd once).
I have no sympathy for this James guy, and if so many people are complaining about his behavior I'm pretty sure there are issues with him.
However, I wish those people were more clear on what exactly he did.
Because it's quite confusing, to the point that at first I thought he did sexual harassment, then I realized he did just "harassment", but I'm not sure of which kind.
I'd wait to put judgemental statements about this person and his associates until things are more clear.
My personal opinion is generally biased against vocal male feminists, I find them more often than not predators in hide, and this may be the case with James. But this is definitely a questionable opinion and I understand many won't agree with me.
However, I wish those people were more clear on what exactly he did.
Because it's quite confusing, to the point that at first I thought he did sexual harassment, then I realized he did just "harassment", but I'm not sure of which kind.
I'd wait to put judgemental statements about this person and his associates until things are more clear.
My personal opinion is generally biased against vocal male feminists, I find them more often than not predators in hide, and this may be the case with James. But this is definitely a questionable opinion and I understand many won't agree with me.
There is not always a smoking gun when it comes to harassment charges. That's why it's very hard for the victims to come forward. Up until now James was considered a well-respected individual in the games industry. He does games consulting, has a successful webseries that is paid for by its fans and a good grasp of game design and how to tackle game design issues.
I don't want to devolve this threat into another GG discussion but for me the moment James raised red flags for me as a person was when he drove the late Totalbiscuit under the bus in a panel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3QZqD3OQbM
Just for context TB was very supportive of Extra Credits when they left the Escapist and helped promote their Youtube channel. He was a vocal supporter, invited James to his very successful weekly podcast, and his platform and influence allowed Extra Credits to land on their feet and continue their work.
This was TB's response to James' statements: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/905/925/b2b.png
I'd like to point out that this is in no way proof that James harassed someone, just that he may be a less scrupulous person than we were lead to believe.
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Oh so that's where that weird "I am a god. Worship me" vibe was coming from. Good to know.
The only difference between TB and a leader is that a leader would take responsibility for their actions instead of conveniently ignoring that every time they complained about those SJWs that their followers go harass them. Oh but I guess he was Deeply Concerned about demonstrably false claims about journalists so that makes it okay.
Same i suppose it's because they try to mask that fact by fighting for a noble cause that somehow negates all suspicions pointing to the contrary, i think this happened often enough so far to give cause for concern.
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It seems like a lot of people are clicking on the wrong Twitter thread ("not clear"/"confusing" when the tweets are quite direct), so posting all of them in image version might be useful?
TL-DR: Post-breakup professional harassment.
Possible misunderstandings:
-The people that are quitting NOW aren't directly concerned. Soraya here has quit at some point in the past, because of James, and is telling her story now.
-The Tweet linked in the first Tweet is an unrelated story. The Tyler case is unrelated to EC. You have to click on the Tweet itself and not the link.
-"Lies" in the first two Tweets refers to the title of a historical video serie on their channel.
-Other people have come out to complain about having been professionally mistreated by James.
What James is accused of:
Using his status to force being around her, pressure her on everything work-related, unfairly accuse her of sabotaging, with signs of manipulation and harassment.
The repercutions on the EC team composition, and Jame's status:
Team responsibility: not directly complicit
Team responsibility: not directly complicit
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James, I feel, long presented himself as 'charming' in a very deliberate, at times odd fashion. It felt a bit odd, but hey, maybe it was just him. More than a few times there were 'jokes' about how everybody liked him, and other staff were kinda left to the side. Now I can't help but wonder if there was a more underlying issue with regards to how he feels he must be perceived by others. Ie, not exactly willing to accept that someone - especially not his now ex-girlfriend - might somehow not like him. Because he's James Portnow, and surely, everybody likes James Portnow.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into it. Either way, wary now.
Edit:
Okay so I'm not the only one who noticed it.
User Banned (1 Week): Downplaying the activity and commentary of a hate movement
TB's name was dragged left and right during GamerGate and he got branded and his image was misused in all sorts of manner. I don't hold him accountable for things he had little-to-no control over. What little he actually said about GG was reasonable and if you want to discuss his involvement in GG then at least discuss the things he actually said or did, not the things that he didn't and had no control over.
This has been proven to be true often enough to raise questions, I definitely agree with you there, but at the same time I wonder and ask you. How is a man who supports these feminist movements be able to express his support or concerns without falling under excessive scrutiny?
Although I consider myself a supporter for feminism or LGBTQ movements I also find that it's hard to speak in defence of them without falling under the same scrutiny as the people who are vehemently opposed to them. Perhaps it's just poor wording on my part, or lack of tact, but it is something that concerns me.
This is quite confusing. So no sexual harrasment? James leaving? wasn't Dan leaving?
Edit: Ok so Dan and Carrie are leaving but have nothing to do with the sexual harassment issue.
The Sexual harassment issue looks more like mobbing/harassment after a failed relationship.
This should be 2 threads indeed lol
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I've not read the entire thread however I just saw this comment.
Now, just leaving this particular situation and being more general, there's 2 people in a relationship and both ought to be aware of the pitfalls of a workplace romance. To suggest that any onus to leave the firm because the relationship has ended should lie with the male, or the more senior member of staff, is a bit silly. If necessary, that onus to leave ought to be shared equally. Just because the more senior worker is male doesn't mean he ought to resign his managerial seat.
Ninja edit: Again, not looking to cause beef as I've not read all of the thread, however I just saw what to me was a bit of an inflammatory comment and wanted to post a reply.
Apologies if you interpreted it like that. It should never be with the male, only in this case. Turn the genders around or you know what, let's remove them:
A human is the boss of another human. They become romantically involved. The boss human should know it can never work like if the relationship ends, which it has a high chance of. The relationship ends and that should have been that... However, the boss human uses boss powers to keep the other human around and run errands and what not, thus abusing the boss powers. Such a human should not be given the boss powers. If I had boss powers over the boss human then I would have put the boss human on leave; abusing boss powers makes one infit to be a boss human in my opinion. Not to mention should have not started the workfloor romance in the first place IMO.
In society we protect the weak humans, those that are a minority, sick or ill, in general: people who need help. As we should. In the case of this topic the non-boss human will always be at a disadvantage, that is why they should be protected.
Even if the boss human was a female, and the other human a male, then I would still think the same. Abuse power = not cool.
Every time I saw him speak on video he made my skin crawl. I just assumed he was awkward.
That's a bit arbitrary and rude.
If you want to try to convince me to feel otherwise, feel free to send me a message of something TB actually said or did as I don't want to derail this topic any further.
I'm not an unreasonable person and I'm willing to listen to both sides of each argument, provided they have valid points. What TB wrote about GG wasn't a whole lot and wasn't unreasonable, at least the things I read, but I missed something important, please, elucidate me.