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Deleted member 2595

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Oct 25, 2017
5,475
Couldn't find a thread (searching "meat", "dairy", "avoiding", "data" etc)

LINK

Avoiding meat and dairy products is the single biggest way to reduce your environmental impact on the planet, according to the scientists behind the most comprehensive analysis to date of the damage farming does to the planet.

The new research shows that without meat and dairy consumption, global farmland use could be reduced by more than 75% – an area equivalent to the US, China, European Union and Australia combined – and still feed the world. Loss of wild areas to agriculture is the leading cause of the current mass extinction of wildlife.

The new analysis shows that while meat and dairy provide just 18% of calories and 37% of protein, it uses the vast majority – 83% – of farmland and produces 60% of agriculture's greenhouse gas emissions. Other recent research shows 86% of all land mammals are now livestock or humans. The scientists also found that even the very lowest impact meat and dairy products still cause much more environmental harm than the least sustainable vegetable and cereal growing.

Emphasis mine.

More behind the link.

Sauce article

Pretty huge dataset:

The study, published in the journal Science, created a huge dataset based on almost 40,000 farms in 119 countries and covering 40 food products that represent 90% of all that is eaten. It assessed the full impact of these foods, from farm to fork, on land use, climate change emissions, freshwater use and water pollution (eutrophication) and air pollution (acidification).

Emphasis also mine
 

Deleted member 4372

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Oct 25, 2017
5,228
My wife and I are testing the waters (so to speak) about becoming pescatarians. I feel like Ive had my fill of read meat and Im close to being done with chicken completely.

Dairy I dont know about. I enjoy two or three servings of yogurt a day. Thats tougher for me to give up than steak and bacon truthfully.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Jan 9, 2018
63
Eh. It'll even out. Once we ravage enough agricultural land through climate change we'll be forced to eat plant based products or pay a significant premium for it. That or a lot of people will die... and then things will even out... at a new higher temperature in a much more stressed planet with many nation states failing due to economic turmoil resulting from climate change based issues.
 

CrazyAndy

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,071
I don't need meat and dairy every day but there's no way I am going to avoid them entirely. There's just too much tasty stuff.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
My wife and I are testing the waters (so to speak) about becoming pescatarians. I feel like Ive had my fill of read meat and Im close to being done with chicken completely.

Dairy I dont know about. I enjoy two or three servings of yogurt a day. Thats tougher for me to give up than steak and bacon truthfully.

I've stopped eating most meats other than fish, but we're massively overfishing the oceans as is, and I still can't find a good supply of farmed fish in my area.

I'm looking forward to trying that GMO salmon they sell in Canada though if it ever reaches our shores.
 

Occam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
I think humanity ceasing to reproduce like a disease, destroying nature and consuming the entire planet would have an even bigger impact.

Reduce human population to less than a billion, leave most of nature untouched. Problem solved.
 

hateradio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,748
welcome, nowhere
Does the article say how we could improve our protein consumption while replacing meat? I don't think I could completely forego eating meat, but I could see myself only eating it once a week.
 
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Deleted member 2595

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Oct 25, 2017
5,475
I think humanity ceasing to reproduce like a disease, destroying nature and consuming the entire planet would have an even bigger impact.
Reproduction is something that will even out. Overpopulation will stop being an issue in the 21st century.



destroying nature and consuming the entire planet would have an even bigger impact.

The point of the article (and veganism etc) is that the meat and dairy industries are the biggest contributor to "destroying nature" and "consuming the entire planet". Have a read.

Does the article say how we could improve our protein consumption while replacing meat? I don't think I could completely forego eating meat, but I could see myself only eating it once a week.
From personal experience this is strongly based on where you live. If you're out in the countryside without many resources, then getting enough protein on a plant-based diet is seriously tough and a lot more expensive.

Living deep in a modern, wealthy urban environment? It's not too hard at all. It's actually cheaper for me to bulk buy tofu than to buy meat - and it gives me about 80% the same protein (although it's way less lean than meat, containing a ton of carbs too).
 

Occam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
Reproduction is something that will even out. Overpopulation will stop being an issue in the 21st century.





The point of the article (and veganism etc) is that the meat and dairy industries are the biggest contributor to "destroying nature" and "consuming the entire planet". Have a read.


But my point is that if there were less than a billion of us on earth, we'd have enough space for dairy and meat production AND nature.

To fight gun violence, you don't change the type of bullets, you reduce the number of guns.
 
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Deleted member 2595

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Oct 25, 2017
5,475
But my point is that if there were less than a billion of us on earth, we'd have enough space for dairy and meat production AND nature.

But if we all lived on a plant-based diet, there's enough space for all of that already :thinking: the problem is meat and dairy cattle taking up an unnecessarily vast amount of that space.

Again, watch the video I posted - the population is expected to even out around 12 billion and never increase beyond that. There's more than enough space for 12 billion humans on Earth. There is not enough space for 12 billion meat-and-dairy-eating humans on Earth.

Read the article, watch the video.

To fight gun violence, you don't change the type of bullets, you reduce the number of guns.

Yes, and in this case the number of guns is the meat and dairy industry. You can live completely healthily on "one gun" - a plant-based diet.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,539
I like how everyone on this forum is extremely for protecting the environment and saving the planet, until the point is made than veganism is the best and most efficient way to protect the environment. People are so incredibly defensive about wanting to eat meat here, it reminds me of conservatives trying to argue away climate change.

I'm not vegan either, by the way. But I realise that I absolutely should be.
 
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Deleted member 2595

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Oct 25, 2017
5,475
The problem is that 12 billion is 11 billion too many.
Where the heck are you getting this 1 billion number from

There's more than enough space and resources on Earth for 12 billion people! It's just about management - which we're not doing well at all right now (the meat and dairy industries being two of the biggest contributors)
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
I get it, but I'm not gonna just start not eating meat and dairy.

I'm not against lab grown substitutes that taste the same though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,350
This has been known for a while but the comprehensive analysis is definitely welcome. I do like that the article emphasises this doesn't mean everyone should be vegan - just cutting out some/most meat and dairy still has a significant impact.

Does the article say how we could improve our protein consumption while replacing meat? I don't think I could completely forego eating meat, but I could see myself only eating it once a week.

The article doesn't say anything, but basically things like beans, chickpeas, tofu, seitan, nuts, etc. 'Fake meat' replacement products as well, but that can be a bit pricey. This is dependent on what's available in your area and what types of food you like to eat, of course.
 

AM_LIGHT

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,725
Reduce human population to less than a billion, leave most of nature untouched. Problem solved
It is generally the poorest in the poorest countries that keep having too many children than they can afford , they put a burden on their already poor countries and contribute to this vicious cycle of poverty . People shouldn't be allowed to have more than 3 children, we have too many people , a majority of them useless.
 

Mango Polo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
486
Where the heck are you getting this 1 billion number from

There's more than enough space and resources on Earth for 12 billion people! It's just about management - which we're not doing well at all right now (the meat and dairy industries being two of the biggest contributors)
Nah let's just kill 11 billions, sounds easier AND I get to keep eat meat. Yum yum.

Looking back on my eating habits I've been unconsciously migrating to a vegan diet. Once I figure out a few things I'll definitely complete the transition to it. Fish will be the hardest part.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,890
I like how everyone on this forum is extremely for protecting the environment and saving the planet, until the point is made than veganism is the best and most efficient way to protect the environment. People are so incredibly defensive about wanting to eat meat here, it reminds me of conservatives trying to argue away climate change.

I'm not vegan either, by the way. But I realise that I absolutely should be.

I've become something of a nihilist on this whole thing. I got all environmental back in the noughts but then after a few years was so disillusioned that I'm now just taking mankind's self destruction a given. All the while accelerating it myself too.
 
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Deleted member 2595

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Oct 25, 2017
5,475
It is generally the poorest in the poorest countries that keep having too many children than they can afford , they put a burden on their already poor countries and contribute to this vicious cycle of poverty . People shouldn't be allowed to have more than 3 children, we have too many people , a majority of them useless.
Again, please watch this video.



Those in developing countries are in the middle of a process which the West experienced in the 1800s and 1900s - the improvement of medicine and subsequent boom of population before we realise that having lots of babies isn't necessary.

Yes, right now they are booming in population, but this will slow to a crawl in coming decades.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
Where the heck are you getting this 1 billion number from

There's more than enough space and resources on Earth for 12 billion people! It's just about management - which we're not doing well at all right now (the meat and dairy industries being two of the biggest contributors)

The egg and the chicken problem. Is it bad management or is it the amount of people, I don't think you can state that it's just "bad management", when it's clear that perfect management doesn't even exist. You can't just assume that management gets better over time when we have developing nations demanding (rightfully so) higher standard of living which in turn demands even more resources. Controlling the population is the single most effective way to combat the inevitable end of resources. It's just politically unpopular and every major religion is against it.
 

loafofbread

Member
Oct 28, 2017
79
Does poultry count as "meat" in this case? Because as far as I knew stuff like chicken had relatively minimal environmental impact and it was mainly cows. No?
 

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,530
Again, please watch this video.



Those in developing countries are in the middle of a process which the West experienced in the 1800s and 1900s - the improvement of medicine and subsequent boom of population before we realise that having lots of babies isn't necessary.

Yes, right now they are booming in population, but this will slow to a crawl in coming decades.

This is pure speculation. Third World countries will never have the living standard first world nations enjoy until they drastically reduce their population size.
 

Metal B

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,396
Where the heck are you getting this 1 billion number from

There's more than enough space and resources on Earth for 12 billion people! It's just about management - which we're not doing well at all right now (the meat and dairy industries being two of the biggest contributors)

diqfdz34.jpg
 

Deleted member 7051

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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
I think humanity ceasing to reproduce like a disease, destroying nature and consuming the entire planet would have an even bigger impact.

Reduce human population to less than a billion, leave most of nature untouched. Problem solved.

Well I sure hope you'd be first in line among the six billion volunteers that also love your idea.
 

Hypron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,059
NZ
Yeah my brother became vegan more than three years ago and since I lived with him I started eating less and less meat until two years ago when I made the switch as well. Better for the environment, better for the animals... I think it's a good thing to do.
 

Buzzman

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
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Oct 25, 2017
1,549
It is generally the poorest in the poorest countries that keep having too many children than they can afford , they put a burden on their already poor countries and contribute to this vicious cycle of poverty . People shouldn't be allowed to have more than 3 children, we have too many people , a majority of them useless.
It's not the poor people that are the problem dude.

 

HarryHengst

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,047
Ah yes, once again the problem is reduced to the individual being blamed for the wrong actions, so we can ignore corporations and politicians all doing everything they can to destroy the world, and capitalism as the big reason why they do it.
 

bane833

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Nov 3, 2017
4,530
It's not the poor people that are the problem dude.
They are though since they are growing in numbers unlike the rich countries and on top of that keep migrating to these rich countries were they enjoy higher standards of living which means they start consuming way more ressources.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
That's a rather exaggerated claim. If I avoid meat and dairy, it won't make one bit of difference to the Earth. Nobody is watching my eating habits to choose how many cows to keep on their farm. It would require a very, very significant amount of people permanently making a life-change to make any difference whatsoever.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,890
That's a rather exaggerated claim. If I avoid meat and dairy, it won't make one bit of difference to the Earth. Nobody is watching my eating habits to choose how many cows to keep on their farm. It would require a very, very significant amount of people permanently making a life-change to make any difference whatsoever.

That's how Trump got elected, literally. Why vote because it won't make a difference?
 

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,506
Again, please watch this video.



Those in developing countries are in the middle of a process which the West experienced in the 1800s and 1900s - the improvement of medicine and subsequent boom of population before we realise that having lots of babies isn't necessary.

Yes, right now they are booming in population, but this will slow to a crawl in coming decades.

Populations of single cities or countries can't even be predicted 10/20/50 or 100 years into the future reliably.
There only needs a break-through in life expectancy that will come sooner or later and any prediction goes down the toilet.
 

AM_LIGHT

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,725
It's not the poor people that are the problem dude.
I am mainly talking about the food resources, rich consume more in other materials because they can afford it . Also poor countries will stay poor if they can't control their population, they will never have the same living standards of developed with how overpopulated they are.
 

Aiustis

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Oct 25, 2017
2,322
Cybertronic Purgatory
They are though since they are growing in numbers unlike the rich countries and on top of that keep migrating to these rich countries were they enjoy higher standards of living which means they start consuming way more ressources.

Gold winning comment in the stupid Olympics.
Immigration counts for very little population shifts in wealthier countries; even less so now with increases in anti immigration sentiment. Poor countries have a significantly lower consumption despite their numbers.
 

klonere

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,439
So like, what's the outcome here, legislation? You aren't getting Western countries to just wholesale change eating habits away from luxury diary/meats without some sort of disincentive. You think people really care that much about global warming (until it's drowning them/causing mass population upheaval/starving them etc etc). More pie in the sky thinking here.
 

CoolOff

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
3,437
Stopped eating beef two years ago, can't say I miss it. Don't really eat a lot of pork outside of bacon either.

Not giving up chicken though, that animal was designed to be food.
 

Buzzman

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Oct 25, 2017
1,549
They are though since they are growing in numbers unlike the rich countries and on top of that keep migrating to these rich countries were they enjoy higher standards of living which means they start consuming way more ressources.
But if these poor people moved here then they wouldn't be classed as poor anymore, so would that solve the problem? No, because our standards are unsustainable in the long run. When a tenth of the world consumes OVER HALF of all resources I'm not going to blame the 2 billion that live on 3% of the pie to do better.
We're the problem, not them.
 

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,530
Gold winning comment in the stupid Olympics.
Immigration counts for very little population shifts in wealthier countries; even less so now with increases in anti immigration sentiment. Poor countries have a significantly lower consumption despite their numbers.
No it doesn´t. Population would already be down massively in western Europe if it wasn´t for immigration. Almost 20% of the population in Germany has at least one immigrant parent. And this number is only going to go up from here on out.
 

HarryHengst

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,047
I am mainly talking about the food resources, rich consume more in other materials because they can afford it . Also poor countries will stay poor if they can't control their population, they will never have the same living standards of developed with how overpopulated they are.
Singapore and Hong Kong are the most densely populated region of the world, yet its not poor. Population density and poverty are not related. The problem is capitalism. That is what keeps countries poor, as they cannot compete against the richer countries, but get completely bought out by them and their industry kicked into the dust. The only countries who manage to escape poverty are the countries who do precisely NOT what institutions like the WTO, IMF or the World Bank tell them to do, but implement strict government control of the economy.
 

Deleted member 7051

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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Y'know, I'm not totally sure I buy this. How the heck does more farmland for cows and pigs cause more environmental damage than all this pollution we're constantly throwing into the atmosphere and all the waste we're just dumping wherever?

It's all well and good suggesting we reduce the amount of meat and dairy we produce, although that would cause the prices to go up and a lot of poorer families would be forced to go on vegan diets and suffer for it, but pointing to it as the single biggest impact the human race has on the environment is kinda stretching it a little.

Besides, the meat industry is worth almost a trillion dollars in America. How the heck do you offset that kind of loss? By increasing the cost of fruit and vegetables? I'm sure that'd go down well, meals costing the same but no more steaks or burgers or pizzas or milk or cheese. Y'know, the stuff people enjoy most.

Then you'd have to stop the sale of fish too, right? You can't just pick and choose what kind of living creature you wanna cut up and serve on a dish. So that's another entire industry gone that we'd have to do something about so people don't lose their jobs.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,350
So like, what's the outcome here, legislation? You aren't getting Western countries to just wholesale change eating habits away from luxury diary/meats without some sort of disincentive. You think people really care that much about global warming (until it's drowning them/causing mass population upheaval/starving them etc etc). More pie in the sky thinking here.

Obviously the point isn't to get people to individually make drastic changes to their lives with no outside change.

From the Science article's conclusion:

In Fig. 4 we illustrate a potential framework implied by our findings, prior research, and emerging policy (9). First, producers would monitor their impacts using digital tools (36). Data would be validated against known ranges for each value (e.g., maximum yields given inputs) and validated or certified independently. In the United States these tools have already been integrated with existing farm software (31); in Africa and South Asia they are in trials with 2G mobile phones (37); and in China they have been operated by extension services with extremely successful results (24).



Fig. 4 Graphical representation of the mitigation framework.
Second, policy-makers would set targets on environmental indicators and incentivize them by providing producers with credit or tax breaks or by reallocating agricultural subsidies that now exceed half a trillion dollars a year worldwide (38). Third, the assessment tools would provide multiple mitigation and productivity enhancement options to producers. Ideally these tools would become platforms that consolidate the vast amounts of research conducted by scientists around the world, while also sharing producer best practices. In particular, practice sharing offers a very effective way to engage producers (24). Maximum flexibility also ensures least-cost mitigation (39) and supports producer-led innovation (24).

Finally, impacts would be communicated up the supply chain and through to consumers. For commodity crops that are hard to trace (31), this may not be feasible and mitigation efforts may have to focus on producers. For animal products, stringent traceability is already required in many countries (40), suggesting that communicating impacts is most feasible where it matters the most. Communication could occur through a combination of environmental labels, taxes or subsidies designed to reflect environmental costs in product prices (35), and broader education on the true cost of food.

We have consolidated information on the practices and impacts of a wide range of producers. From this research, we have provided a unified exposition of the environmental science for making major changes to the food system. We hope this stimulates progress in this crucially important area.

None of this seems extremely radical or unworkable. And it's quite far from the 'let's all stop eating meat and dairy right away' message people seem to be getting from this (because of how the Guardian is framing it, I guess).