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This fucking incel shit has got to stop.

Thread starter Tahnit
Start date May 21, 2018

Status: Not open for further replies.

Tribal_Cult

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,151

I wonder how much of this problem would be resolved by legalized, controlled and socially accepted prostitution.
I mean not having an important person in your life would still create mental problems in the long run, but a good fuck once in a while can do wonders.
Anyway, the incel movement itself is disgusting and terrifying, but I would be lying if I wouldn't admit some of the material that comes out of it is fucking hilarious. I love to read some of their stuff, it's seriously fascinating and funny. Hard to look away from a trainwreck.

Crossing Eden

Member

Jun 10, 2018

#1,152

Tribal_Cult said:
I wonder how much of this problem would be resolved by legalized, controlled and socially accepted prostitution.
I mean not having an important person in your life would still create mental problems in the long run, but a good fuck once in a while can do wonders.
Anyway, the incel movement itself is disgusting and terrifying, but I would be lying if I wouldn't admit some of the material that comes out of it is fucking hilarious. I love to read some of their stuff, it's seriously fascinating and funny. Hard to look away from a trainwreck.

Prostitution isn't the cure to the incel mindset due to their view of women. It's not about sex.

Ryder9

Alt account

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,153

Moonkid said:
It's clearly a call for help, why are you hitting them with the zinger lol.

Then drop the label "incel"? It's like being a part of the KKK but telling people that you're not racist for being in the KKK. I don't feel sympathy for these morons who continue associating with this cult.

Red Arremer

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,154

Tribal_Cult said:
I wonder how much of this problem would be resolved by legalized, controlled and socially accepted prostitution.
I mean not having an important person in your life would still create mental problems in the long run, but a good fuck once in a while can do wonders.

To quote a wise man:
There's no cure for being a cunt.

To expand upon that, I don't think getting their dick wet would help most if any of these people. They most likely would feel "above" having to resort to paying money in exchange for sex. After all, in their eyes, they deserve the attention of women, being such great guys, so nice and smart. They see no flaws within themselves, whatsoever. Any woman who does not want their advances is a whore or a bitch, and it's not their own fault, it's the women's.

Hatred does not follow rhyme or reason. It's irrational, it makes no sense, and it isn't addressed or solved so easily as having them go have sex with a hooker.

Dernhelm

Avenger

Jun 10, 2018

#1,155

Tribal_Cult said:
I wonder how much of this problem would be resolved by legalized, controlled and socially accepted prostitution.
I mean not having an important person in your life would still create mental problems in the long run, but a good fuck once in a while can do wonders.
Anyway, the incel movement itself is disgusting and terrifying, but I would be lying if I wouldn't admit some of the material that comes out of it is fucking hilarious. I love to read some of their stuff, it's seriously fascinating and funny. Hard to look away from a trainwreck.

One of the most frightening thoughts connected to incels is what they'd actually do to a woman if they had the chance. They are a self-enabling sub-culture that actively encourages the dehumanisation of women in their members eyes. They are there to be owned, and damaged simply for the status of men. No amount of controlled or socially accepted prostitution would help them - nor, in that setting, would incels qualify to be allowed anywhere near said prostitutes for safety reasons. They are rape-fantasists, not sexually deprived.

Deleted member 11943

User requested account closure

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,156

If alone was the default and the expectation, I think there would be nothing here.

But the default is to have a partner. I've actually done better in my career when I have a partner, just because people know how to interact with you then.

ZackieChan

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,157

Xiaomi said:
Jesus fucking Christ. Apparently anger-cringe is a thing, because I am feeling it.

So much of this shit is in their heads that it's completely bewildering how they got into such a mindset in the first place. Being "wrist-mogged?" How can you let yourself get hung up on having what are apparently ugly wrists?

Meanwhile I'm out here post-mogging most of Era on the reg

Timothy

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,158

I do remember reading a statistic (by a Vox journalist) who did show that men were having substantially less sex (I think it went to 15%, rising doubling in like five years, as in men they hadn't had sex in over a year) just before the rise of tinder became a thing.

Women barely changed.

I don't know if it's internet communication and the Tinder effect specifically, but that is a significant change and might make sense of why this community is occuring.

Something is happening with society, especially with the internet and likewise stuff like birth control being a major factor.

Likewise the proliferation and expansion of mass media and societal expectations on placed on everyone to in terms of notions of masculinity/feminity I'd assume is a factor.

It's a crazy shift within the last 50 or so years. To say this community is just stupid and have no point might be stretching. They are a fucked up sub-culture, depressing, and I abhor the psychos in it... but it's likely more than just some fundamental notion of needing to "pick yourself up".

It's almost a very right wing thing to say it's only their fault ...when you think about it....

Last edited: Jun 10, 2018

Dernhelm

Avenger

Jun 10, 2018

#1,159

Timothy said:
I don't identify with the movement but I do remember reading a statistic (by a Vox journalist) who did show that men were having substantially less sex (I think it went to 15%, rising doublinf in like five years, as in men they hadn't had sex in over a year) just before the rise of tinder became a thing.

Women barely changed.

I don't know if it's internet communication and the Tinder effect specifically, but that is a significant change and might make sense of why this community is occuring.

Something is happening with society, especially with the internet and likewise stuff like birth control being a major factor.

Likewise the proliferation and expansion of mass media and societal expectations on placed on everyone to in terms of notions of masculinity/feminity I'd assume is a factor.

It's a crazy shift within the last 50 or so years. To say this community is just stupid and have no point might be stretching. They are a fucked up sub-culture, depressing, and I adhor the psychos in it... but it's likely more than just some fundamental notion of needing to "pick yourself up".

It's almost a very right wing thing to say it's only their fault ...when you thing about it....

Have you not thought about the notion that this is a radical, violently driven sub-set of right wingers, that have co-opted the fallacy you yourself are perpetrating in this quote that 'less sex for men' is an alarming thing?

There is a conversation to be had about sexual expectations in society.

The treatment of incels are categorically not a part of said conversation. They merely use this as an excuse to perpetrate hate speech to women.

A more socially accepting view on sex and sexuality would curb people growing up into becoming incels, it won't make actual incels feel any better about themselves.

Crackhead_Bob

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,160

Red Arremer said:
Melba is a dessert that's usually made with peach and vanilla ice cream, with darker sauce (usually raspberry, but I've seen chocolate sauce used) on top, so I think that the implication here is that Ben Carson is a black guy who basically acts like a white guy (the peach/vanilla), and doesn't have the interests of his minority in mind rather than his own personal gain.
Of course, I'm not black either, but that's how I would interpret the remark. A wolf in sheep's clothing, so to speak.

Interesting take. I was thinking more of the double entendre implications, because he delivered it in such a catty way. I'm thinking, why not just simply cut to the chase and call him an uncle tom?

Crackhead_Bob

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,161

Timothy said:
I do remember reading a statistic (by a Vox journalist) who did show that men were having substantially less sex (I think it went to 15%, rising doubling in like five years, as in men they hadn't had sex in over a year) just before the rise of tinder became a thing.

Women barely changed.

I don't know if it's internet communication and the Tinder effect specifically, but that is a significant change and might make sense of why this community is occuring.

Something is happening with society, especially with the internet and likewise stuff like birth control being a major factor.

Likewise the proliferation and expansion of mass media and societal expectations on placed on everyone to in terms of notions of masculinity/feminity I'd assume is a factor.

It's a crazy shift within the last 50 or so years. To say this community is just stupid and have no point might be stretching. They are a fucked up sub-culture, depressing, and I abhor the psychos in it... but it's likely more than just some fundamental notion of needing to "pick yourself up".

It's almost a very right wing thing to say it's only their fault ...when you think about it....

It's crazy that birth control would be such a bone of contention from a culture that's all about lifting oneself up from their bootstrap. Not everyone toes this line, but the usual suspects make it abundantly clear we're on our own. Well, birth control empowers women so that they don't end up going on welfare. It's astonishing to me that young people would have such reductive reasoning. Back in the 1990's, even I knew this coming of age. Maybe not on the deep level that I do today, but I knew that unplanned pregnancies and STD's could disrupt your life -- sometimes even irreparably. Moreover, how many incels would even be prepared for an unplanned pregnancy?

Crackhead_Bob

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,162

Timothy said:
I do remember reading a statistic (by a Vox journalist) who did show that men were having substantially less sex (I think it went to 15%, rising doubling in like five years, as in men they hadn't had sex in over a year) just before the rise of tinder became a thing.

Women barely changed.

I don't know if it's internet communication and the Tinder effect specifically, but that is a significant change and might make sense of why this community is occuring.

Something is happening with society, especially with the internet and likewise stuff like birth control being a major factor.

Likewise the proliferation and expansion of mass media and societal expectations on placed on everyone to in terms of notions of masculinity/feminity I'd assume is a factor.

It's a crazy shift within the last 50 or so years. To say this community is just stupid and have no point might be stretching. They are a fucked up sub-culture, depressing, and I abhor the psychos in it... but it's likely more than just some fundamental notion of needing to "pick yourself up".

It's almost a very right wing thing to say it's only their fault ...when you think about it....

At the very least, maybe not behave in such an abhorrent way that no one wants to be around them period. Many people are self loathing, but they don't turn it outward in ways that are harmful to others. Robin Williams, Chris Farley, Marc Maron, and others are/were self loathing individuals, who not only kept their hateful impulses in check, but also used them constructively.

And it's not rocket science that you treat other people decently. Being rejected for a date is not akin to being put upon, nor is it an excuse to fall back on misogynistic thoughts and deeds.

Timothy

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,163

SteadFast said:
Have you not thought about the notion that this is a radical, violently driven sub-set of right wingers, that have co-opted the fallacy you yourself are perpetrating in this quote that 'less sex for men' is an alarming thing?

There is a conversation to be had about sexual expectations in society.

The treatment of incels are categorically not a part of said conversation. They merely use this as an excuse to perpetrate hate speech to women.

Crackhead_Bob said:

It's crazy that birth control would be such a bone of contention from a culture that's all about lifting oneself up from their bootstrap. Not everyone toes this line, but the usual suspects make it abundantly clear we're on our own. Well, birth control empowers women so that they don't end up going on welfare. It's astonishing to me that young people would have such reductive reasoning. Back in the 1990's, even I knew this coming of age. Maybe not on the deep level that I do today, but I knew that unplanned pregnancies and STD's could disrupt your life -- sometimes even irreparably. Moreover, how many incels would even be prepared for an unplanned pregnancy?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes unplanned pregnancies are bad.

A more socially accepting view on sex and sexuality would curb people growing up into becoming incels, it won't make actual incels feel any better about themselves.

I have and I agree with what you are saying, I don't think it's one or the other.

Crackhead_Bob said:
At the very least, maybe not behave in such an abhorrent way that no one wants to be around them period. Many people are self loathing, but they don't turn it outward in ways that are harmful to others. Robin Williams, Chris Farley, Marc Maron, and others are/were self loathing individuals, who not only kept their hateful impulses in check, but also used them constructively.

And it's not rocket science that you treat other people decently. Being rejected for a date is not akin to being put upon, nor is it an excuse to fall back on misogynistic thoughts and deeds.

It isn't and excuse. Absolutely.

Last edited: Jun 10, 2018

Timothy

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,164

Crackhead_Bob said:
It's crazy that birth control would be such a bone of contention from a culture that's all about lifting oneself up from their bootstrap. Not everyone toes this line, but the usual suspects make it abundantly clear we're on our own. Well, birth control empowers women so that they don't end up going on welfare. It's astonishing to me that young people would have such reductive reasoning. Back in the 1990's, even I knew this coming of age. Maybe not on the deep level that I do today, but I knew that unplanned pregnancies and STD's could disrupt your life -- sometimes even irreparably. Moreover, how many incels would even be prepared for an unplanned pregnancy?

I agree unplanned pregnancies are bad. I don't follow your point though. Apologies in advance. It would be would be bad for anyone.

I'm just saying it's one of many points including mass media and the internet proliferating that does this. BC still doesn't dispute the changes in society that it creates and the results of that (as fucked up as it can be eg. Incels)

Though of course BC is just one thing. Like I said the net and mass media.

Crackhead_Bob

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,165

Timothy said:
I have and I agree with what you are saying, I don't think it's one or the other.

It isn't. Absolutely.

You mentioned that birth control was among the various driving factors behind the incel phenomenon. I don't know if there's any truth to that claim, but if it is, it's a sad state of grievance coming from a subset who have no wherewithal, whether financial or emotional, of dealing with an unplanned pregnancy. The availability of birth control doesn't make these assholes any more abhorrent than they already are. But it's good that it is an option for women today, regardless of whether incels feel slighted by it. Believe me, it has nothing at all to do with these shitheads however hard they may try to make it about them.

Timothy

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,166

Crackhead_Bob said:
You mentioned that birth control was among the various driving factors behind the incel phenomenon. I don't know if there's any truth to that claim, but if it is, it's a sad state of grievance coming from a subset who have no wherewithal, whether financial or emotional, of dealing with an unplanned pregnancy. The availability of birth control doesn't make these assholes any more abhorrent than they already are. But it's good that it is an option for women today, regardless of whether incels feel slighted by it. Believe me, it has nothing at all to do with these shitheads.

It's not an excuse. No. But just focusing on the community and not the wider societal shifts in communication technology or science (birth control) and not realising the way they affect society is going to be worse for us in understanding the phenomenon. It's simply too narrow a lense to say it's just the patriarchy and sexism as the only fundamental reason imo

Last edited: Jun 10, 2018

Crackhead_Bob

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,167

Timothy said:
It's not an excuse. No. But just focusing on the community and not the wider societal shifts in communication technology or science (birth control) and the way they affect society is going to be worse for us. It's too narrow a lense to view the issue imo.

But birth control doesn't affect them. So I don't see the point you're trying to make. Look, many people have been pigeon holed in the outcast role, but they don't all become sociopathic assholes. Not all of them develop misogynistic or racist outlooks. Many pick themselves up off the ground and put in the hard earned effort to affect change. Just because we're living in a more beleaguering time with all the modern day accoutrements of the day is no excuse. We have it better today than we did 20 years ago. We also didn't try making martyrs out of the Columbine killers because they were bullied at high school. Shit happens, and people are often given raw deals in life, but we deal with it the best way we can. I'm averse to the idea that we give a free pass to people who freely abandon common sense and dignity because of certain grievances in life. Not being able to get laid doesn't register high on the list of life's necessities.

Timothy

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,168

Crackhead_Bob said:
But birth control doesn't affect them. So I don't see the point you're trying to make. Look, many people have been pigeon holed in the outcast role, but they don't all become sociopathic assholes. Not all of them develop misogynistic or racist outlooks. Many pick themselves up off the ground and put in the hard earned effort to affect change. Just because we're living in a more beleaguering time with all the modern day accoutrements of the day is no excuse. We have it better today than we did 20 years ago. We also didn't try making martyrs out of the Columbine killers because they were bullied at high school. Shit happens, and people are often given raw deals in life, but we deal with it the best way we can. I'm averse to the idea that we give a free pass to people who freely abandon common sense and dignity because of certain grievances in life. Not being able to get laid doesn't register high on the list of life's necessities.

BC does affect them. With the ability and control to much more easilt stop conception women can become choosier and it's likely this being one of the reasons certain men are losing out of sex/marriage. Again just one element. Not sure how much though.

Of course condoms have been a thing for a long time too. I'm just stating it is likely a key factor.

Again not excusing the fucked up behaviour. Just saying the issue is more complicated than some are making it out to be.

Crackhead_Bob

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,169

Timothy said:
BC does affect them. With the ability and control to stop kids being born, women can become more choosier and it's likely this being gone of the reasons, certain men are losing out. Again just one element. Not sure how much though.

Of course condoms have been a thing for a long time too. I'm just stating it is likely a key factor.

I don't know why that should matter to them. They're not the one's having to worry about unplanned pregnancies. It's pretty fucked up to think that taking that off the table will somehow level the playing field; make them more appealing. Like I said before, they need to adapt. Stop being creepy, entitled douche bags online or irl. Maybe take a shower and brush their teeth, etc..

saturnineCarrier

Member

Jun 10, 2018

#1,170

Kimura said:
The world doesn't care about you, me or anyone else. You're not owed anything.

I keep seeing this repeated throughout every thread about incels and more generally relationships and I can't help but feel slightly weirded out.

Unless you believe in some ridiculous Randian or equivalently fucked up ultra libertarian ideology, the notion that "you're not owed anything" is obviously bullshit. We live in arguably modern societies. We're already owed shit. Our physical integrity, our right to property. Depending on how far left you stand you could claim that we should be owed medical care, food, water and a roof. All these things belong in the material realm. I would personally argue that our societies should ensure our spiritual/mental well being as well, something that they fail miserably to do so far. We know for a fact that relationships are an extremely important factor in mental well being. This doesn't necessarily apply to everyone, but physical and emotional intimacy are evidently important to a large part of the population.

I think it's important to clarify that I'm not defending or advocating for incels, but I don't believe people turn to hateful ideologies out of thin air. The initial malaise that set them on their path is real. Loneliness can and will fuck you up. In that sense, it is society's duty to keep people from falling in the same trap, which is obviously a lot harder to do than giving food to someone hungry or shelter to homeless people, because you can't just "give" relationships. You can only give people the tools to let them help themselves. And I'm not sure "tough shit, you're on your own, learn to be happy alone" is particularly useful in that regard.

Timothy

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,171

Crackhead_Bob said:
I don't know why that should matter to them. They're not the one's having to worry about unplanned pregnancies. It's pretty fucked up to think that taking that off the table will somehow level the playing field; make them more appealing. Like I said before, they need to adapt. Stop being creepy, entitled douche bags online or irl. Maybe take a shower and brush their teeth, etc..

This is literally their meme that they say every second post....

Again I'll state it's a variety of changes in society. And like I said in my first post what you said there is a prime example of what a right winger would say... such as to black people

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,172

Timothy said:
With the ability and control to much more easilt stop conception women can become choosier and it's likely this being one of the reasons certain men are losing out of sex/marriage.

Oh come the fuck on. We have enough trouble getting laws passed to let us have fucking abortions and now you're blaming incels on birth control?

I am so sick of men trying to tell us what we can do with our own bodies. They're our fucking bodies. If we don't want to have sex with you or have kids with you, that's our damn choice. You do not have the right to turn that shit against us and say that's why this sort of twisted sexism exists.

No woman should ever be expected to have sex with someone nor should she ever be held responsible for a man's actions because she refused to.

Bedlam

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,173

Timothy said:
BC does affect them. With the ability and control to much more easilt stop conception women can become choosier and it's likely this being one of the reasons certain men are losing out of sex/marriage. Again just one element. Not sure how much though.

Of course condoms have been a thing for a long time too. I'm just stating it is likely a key factor.

Again not excusing the fucked up behaviour. Just saying the issue is more complicated than some are making it out to be.

So woman being able to have more sex for fun and potential for romantic opportunities (of their own choosing now, just as men were able to before) somehow reduces the potential for men to have sex?

How?

Don't kid yourself, women would be just as "choosy" if not moreso, had they less opportunities for fun sexual encounters. The same type of men would lose out if women had to pick the father of their children at an earlier stage. Incels in their state (which contrary to their self-imposed label is not involuntary) are simply not desirable mating partners.

What you are talking about is a patriarchical, misogynist society in which men rule over women and dictate sex life.

Last edited: Jun 10, 2018

Timothy

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,174

Winny（๑•̀ㅂ•́）و said:
Oh come the fuck on. We have enough trouble getting laws passed to let us have fucking abortions and now you're blaming incels on birth control?

I am so sick of men trying to tell us what we can do with our own bodies. They're our fucking bodies. If we don't want to have sex with you or have kids with you, that's our damn choice. You do not have the right to turn that shit against us and say that's why this sort of twisted sexism exists.

No woman should ever be expected to have sex with someone nor should she ever be held responsible for a man's actions because she refused to.

I never just blamed BC.

Bedlam said:
So woman being able to have more sex for fun and potential for romantic opportunities (of their own choosing now, just as men were able to before) somehow reduces the potential for men to have sex?

How?

Don't kid yourself, women would be just as "choosy" if not moreso, had they less opportunities for fun sexual encounters. The same type of men would lose out if they had to pick the father of their children

What you are talking about is a patriarchical, misogynist society in which men rule over women.

I'm not saying women should be allowed to choose like men have. That's why I mentioned condoms. I'm just stating it's a factor amongst a multitude of factors. And society has changed. I'm not going to draw conclusions on whether or not this is bad or not. It's complicated, I don't know.

capitalCORN

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,175

saturnineCarrier said:
I keep seeing this repeated throughout every thread about incels and more generally relationships and I can't help but feel slightly weirded out.

Unless you believe in some ridiculous Randian or equivalently fucked up ultra libertarian ideology, the notion that "you're not owed anything" is obviously bullshit. We live in arguably modern societies. We're already owed shit. Our physical integrity, our right to property. Depending on how far left you stand you could claim that we should be owed medical care, food, water and a roof. All these things belong in the material realm. I would personally argue that our societies should ensure our spiritual/mental well being as well, something that they fail miserably to do so far. We know for a fact that relationships are an extremely important factor in mental well being. This doesn't necessarily apply to everyone, but physical and emotional intimacy are evidently important to a large part of the population.

I think it's important to clarify that I'm not defending or advocating for incels, but I don't believe people turn to hateful ideologies out of thin air. The initial malaise that set them on their path is real. Loneliness can and will fuck you up. In that sense, it is society's duty to keep people from falling in the same trap, which is obviously a lot harder to do than giving food to someone hungry or shelter to homeless people, because you can't just "give" relationships. You can only give people the tools to let them help themselves. And I'm not sure "tough shit, you're on your own, learn to be happy alone" is particularly useful in that regard.

To equivocate basic life fundamentals to quality of life metrics is fallacy. Most netizens probably live in places where the world is not impossible. Personal growth is a not some bullshit classicism inflicted for leverage and control, it's an intrinsic skill development that permeates all aspects of behavior, from micro to macro. Society wasn't woven in a week, but like any development, weaved strand by strand from plant to fabrics. Groups are communal, the world doesn't owe single individuals any change.

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,176

Timothy said:
And society has changed.

Yes society has changed. We are taking more and more control of our rights, our bodies, our opportunities, away from men and more than just a small number of them hate it.

I mean, you're sitting there trying to find excuses, trying to shift the blame even if just a little. These are messed up psychos who want women to be nothing more than slaves that exist to serve their every sexual desire like some Handmaid's Tale bullshit and even if you don't agree with them or share their views, you're trying to justify their position.

Dernhelm

Avenger

Jun 10, 2018

#1,177

saturnineCarrier said:
I keep seeing this repeated throughout every thread about incels and more generally relationships and I can't help but feel slightly weirded out.

Unless you believe in some ridiculous Randian or equivalently fucked up ultra libertarian ideology, the notion that "you're not owed anything" is obviously bullshit. We live in arguably modern societies. We're already owed shit. Our physical integrity, our right to property. Depending on how far left you stand you could claim that we should be owed medical care, food, water and a roof. All these things belong in the material realm. I would personally argue that our societies should ensure our spiritual/mental well being as well, something that they fail miserably to do so far. We know for a fact that relationships are an extremely important factor in mental well being. This doesn't necessarily apply to everyone, but physical and emotional intimacy are evidently important to a large part of the population.

I think it's important to clarify that I'm not defending or advocating for incels, but I don't believe people turn to hateful ideologies out of thin air. The initial malaise that set them on their path is real. Loneliness can and will fuck you up. In that sense, it is society's duty to keep people from falling in the same trap, which is obviously a lot harder to do than giving food to someone hungry or shelter to homeless people, because you can't just "give" relationships. You can only give people the tools to let them help themselves. And I'm not sure "tough shit, you're on your own, learn to be happy alone" is particularly useful in that regard.

What tools? You're talking about giving them dating tips? Because there's a whole other subset of shit associated with going down that rabbit hole. Teaching gender equality at a young age? Fuck yeah, teaching about self identifying when you are hurting emotionally and how to cope also at a young age? Sign me up.

But why the comparison to the rights to stuff? That falls apart quite a bit when the right you appear to be alluding to (pardon if not just how I'm reading this) falls dangerously close to right to sex or relationships. Both involve another human, do they have the right to say no?

Goat Mimicry

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,178

Timothy said:
BC does affect them. With the ability and control to much more easilt stop conception women can become choosier and it's likely this being one of the reasons certain men are losing out of sex/marriage. Again just one element. Not sure how much though.

No, it means they can be less choosy because they don't have to worry about getting tied down to someone they don't like. Between that and the studies that show women on the pill aren't as attracted to typically masculine men (ie. chads), birth control is actually doing incels a favor.

Timothy

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,179

Winny（๑•̀ㅂ•́）و said:
Yes society has changed. We are taking more and more control of our rights, our bodies, our opportunities, away from men and more than just a small number of them hate it.

I mean, you're sitting there trying to find excuses, trying to shift the blame even if just a little. These are messed up psychos who want women to be nothing more than slaves that exist to serve their every sexual desire like some Handmaid's Tale bullshit and even if you don't agree with them or share their views, you're trying to justify their position.

I'm attempting to explain why they exist, not justify their actions. I'm really just asking that we consider there is a lot more to it than just evil misogyny. Please consider this possibility.

Timothy

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,180

User Banned (Permanent): Sexist commentary, history of misogynistic posts.

Spoopy Boatington said:
No, it means they can be less choosy because they don't have to worry about getting tied down to someone they don't like. Between that and the studies that show women on the pill aren't as attracted to typically masculine men (ie. chads), birth control is actually doing incels a favor.

I don't know about the latter claim. I'm sure it's true to some extent. Who knows. I feel people are really getting caught up in the BC issue because it's easier to defend and not addressing the other things I've mentioned like the internet in the instagram/tinder age and mass medias rise playing a factor.

And to your first claim. It's essentially what their belief is. Women always want a better guy. Thus stuff like BC (though they actually talk more about the media and the internet) would help them in their twenties but may be their downfall eg the term roastie/post wall that is in their common lingo for a woman who is used up, past 35 and nobody wants. Single cat ladies basically.

Kimura

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,181

capitalCORN said:
To equivocate basic life fundamentals to quality of life metrics is fallacy. Most netizens probably live in places where the world is not impossible. Personal growth is a not some bullshit classicism inflicted for leverage and control, it's an intrinsic skill development that permeates all aspects of behavior, from micro to macro. Society wasn't woven in a week, but like any development, weaved strand by strand from plant to fabrics. Groups are communal, the world doesn't owe single individuals any change.

Exactly.

saturnineCarrier said:
I keep seeing this repeated throughout every thread about incels and more generally relationships and I can't help but feel slightly weirded out.

Unless you believe in some ridiculous Randian or equivalently fucked up ultra libertarian ideology, the notion that "you're not owed anything" is obviously bullshit. We live in arguably modern societies. We're already owed shit. Our physical integrity, our right to property. Depending on how far left you stand you could claim that we should be owed medical care, food, water and a roof. All these things belong in the material realm. I would personally argue that our societies should ensure our spiritual/mental well being as well, something that they fail miserably to do so far. We know for a fact that relationships are an extremely important factor in mental well being. This doesn't necessarily apply to everyone, but physical and emotional intimacy are evidently important to a large part of the population.

I think it's important to clarify that I'm not defending or advocating for incels, but I don't believe people turn to hateful ideologies out of thin air. The initial malaise that set them on their path is real. Loneliness can and will fuck you up. In that sense, it is society's duty to keep people from falling in the same trap, which is obviously a lot harder to do than giving food to someone hungry or shelter to homeless people, because you can't just "give" relationships. You can only give people the tools to let them help themselves. And I'm not sure "tough shit, you're on your own, learn to be happy alone" is particularly useful in that regard.

You have the right to a free life, liberty and to pursue material goods that make up the well being of people in the free world. But you don't have a right to those things themselves. Being given the things you want is very different. I'd argue that peoples expectations and entitlement is one of the leading causes of movements like incel. Millienials who grew up with parents indoctrinating them with the "you can be anything, you can have anything" and then when they grow up and the economy falls on hard times and they will not be able to get what they expected growing up- they get mad and feel like their fortune have been robbed from them by [insert group, or thing to blame for their lack of well being].

Society doesn't care about individuals because it has to look out for the well being of everyone. In that way, society is oppressive to individuals. That's just the price we pay for the luxuries we have in society. We don't have the right to a nice home. We have the right to pursue a nice home. We don't have the right to love, we have the right to pursue love. But for people whose expectations are met short, someone has to pay the price. Their entitlement demands is. Which is why that hate groups always have a common theme around blaming some other group for everything (women, jews, blacks, immigrants, whatever).

NoName999

One Winged Slayer

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,182

Didn't know that Jordan Peterson had an Era account.

Deleted member 9237

User requested account closure

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,183

Crackhead_Bob said:
At the very least, maybe not behave in such an abhorrent way that no one wants to be around them period. Many people are self loathing, but they don't turn it outward in ways that are harmful to others. Robin Williams, Chris Farley, Marc Maron, and others are/were self loathing individuals, who not only kept their hateful impulses in check, but also used them constructively.

And it's not rocket science that you treat other people decently. Being rejected for a date is not akin to being put upon, nor is it an excuse to fall back on misogynistic thoughts and deeds.

If 15% of men aren't getting any, then that's a separate problem from what this thread's about I think, which is a tiny subset of that 15% who are shitbags.

saturnineCarrier

Member

Jun 10, 2018

#1,184

capitalCORN said:
To equivocate basic life fundamentals to quality of life metrics is fallacy. Most netizens probably live in places where the world is not impossible. Personal growth is a not some bullshit classicism inflicted for leverage and control, it's an intrinsic skill development that permeates all aspects of behavior, from micro to macro. Society wasn't woven in a week, but like any development, weaved strand by strand from plant to fabrics. Groups are communal, the world doesn't owe single individuals any change.

Whether the world is impossible or not depends entirely on perspective, something that gets thoroughly fucked when suffering from mental disorders like depression, which is easily born from loneliness.
And what "single individuals"? Incels obviously show that we're talking about a society-wide issue, especially when you consider that they're just the emerged part of the iceberg, the one that turned their suffering into outward destruction. An iceberg comprised of people that might not have the luxury of getting pissy online, too.

SteadFast said:
What tools? You're talking about giving them dating tips? Because there's a whole other subset of shit associated with going down that rabbit hole. Teaching gender equality at a young age? Fuck yeah, teaching about self identifying when you are hurting emotionally and how to cope also at a young age? Sign me up.

But why the comparison to the rights to stuff? That falls apart quite a bit when the right you appear to be alluding to (pardon if not just how I'm reading this) falls dangerously close to right to sex or relationships. Both involve another human, do they have the right to say no?

Not necessarily dating tips no, though learning how to self improve would help. Teaching gender equality is a start yes, as would be coping and relation-building skills. Counseling, easy access to mental health professionals, etc.

The comparison came from the notion of being "owed nothing". Obviously I'm not talking about right to sex or relationship, which would go against the right to bodily integrity. Which is why I said that it's harder to solve than hunger : you need to help people cope with their situation and hopefully later they can create meaningful relationships on their own.

Kimura said:
You have the right to a free life, liberty and to pursue material goods that make up the well being of people in the free world. But you don't have a right to those things themselves. Being given the things you want is very different. I'd argue that peoples expectations and entitlement is one of the leading causes of movements like incel. Millienials who grew up with parents indoctrinating them with the "you can be anything, you can have anything" and then when they grow up and the economy falls on hard times and they will not be able to get what they expected growing up- they get mad and feel like their fortune have been robbed from them by [insert group, or thing to blame for their lack of well being].

Society doesn't care about individuals because it has to look out for the well being of everyone. In that way, society is oppressive to individuals. That's just the price we pay for the luxuries we have in society. We don't have the right to a nice home. We have the right to pursue a nice home. We don't have the right to love, we have the right to pursue love. But for people whose expectations are met short, someone has to pay the price. Their entitlement demands is. Which is why that hate groups always have a common theme around blaming some other group for everything (women, jews, blacks, immigrants, whatever).

Millenial blasting and a capitalist zero-sum game to happiness, really?

And again, I was not strictly talking about incels.

capitalCORN

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,185

saturnineCarrier said:
Whether the world is impossible or not depends entirely on perspective, something that gets thoroughly fucked when suffering from mental disorders like depression, which is easily born from loneliness.
And what "single individuals"? Incels obviously show that we're talking about a society-wide issue, especially when you consider that they're just the emerged part of the iceberg, the one that turned their suffering into outward destruction. An iceberg comprised of people that might not have the luxury of getting pissy online, too.

There is no perfect world, and there never will be. Bias is more than design or nature, it's a force. What is liable is reaction. If inalienable rights exist, so does inalienable liability.

Kimura

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,186

saturnineCarrier said:
Whether the world is impossible or not depends entirely on perspective, something that gets thoroughly fucked when suffering from mental disorders like depression, which is easily born from loneliness.
And what "single individuals"? Incels obviously show that we're talking about a society-wide issue, especially when you consider that they're just the emerged part of the iceberg, the one that turned their suffering into outward destruction. An iceberg comprised of people that might not have the luxury of getting pissy online, too.

Not necessarily dating tips no, though learning how to self improve would help. Teaching gender equality is a start yes, as would be coping and relation-building skills. Counseling, easy access to mental health professionals, etc.

The comparison came from the notion of being "owed nothing". Obviously I'm not talking about right to sex or relationship, which would go against the right to bodily integrity. Which is why I said that it's harder to solve than hunger : you need to help people cope with their situation and hopefully later they can create meaningful relationships on their own.

Millenial blasting and a capitalist zero-sum game to happiness, really?

And again, I was not strictly talking about incels.

No, that's not what I am talking about. I'm talking about entitlement leading to being an asshole. You're the one conflating freedom of opportunity with freedom of being given pussy.

Antrax

Member

Jun 10, 2018

#1,187

Timothy said:
It's almost a very right wing thing to say it's only their fault ...when you think about it....

This is a strong misunderstanding of why people don't like the bootstraps argument economically. Because your economic situation actually is beyond your control in most ways.

Socially? Hell no. Hating women isn't out of your hands. Just stop hating women

saturnineCarrier

Member

Jun 10, 2018

#1,188

capitalCORN said:
There is no perfect world, and there never will be. Bias is more than design or nature, it's a force. What is liable is reaction. If inalienable rights exist, so does inalienable liability.

I'm not sure I follow. Where did I claim that inalienable liability wasn't a thing? Or that the world was perfect, for that matter?

Kimura said:
No, that's not what I am talking about. I'm talking about entitlement leading to being an asshole. You're the one conflating freedom of opportunity with freedom of being given pussy.

I'm conflating freedom of opportunity with freedom of being given pussy, in the same post I talked about the right to bodily autonomy..? Ok, then.

Timothy

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,189

Antrax said:
This is a strong misunderstanding of why people don't like the bootstraps argument economically. Because your economic situation actually is beyond your control in most ways.

Socially? Hell no. Hating women isn't out of your hands. Just stop hating women

They don't think they are just socially crap. They think culturally/technologically they are sceewed. So in terms of sexual economics. The numbers are against them. Some are just dumb though I'll give you that.

But their belief is either cultural, the digital age and I'm sure some sexism too. Which one or the other precedes the other I don't know.

But saying stop hating women gets no-ne nowhere.. C'mon. It's a convenient argument but really are we seriously going to just have this shallow an analysis? Incels are distorted yes, but they came from and are also the result of a bunch of factors. That I'm hoping you won't disagree with.

Kimura

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,190

saturnineCarrier said:
I'm not sure I follow. Where did I claim that inalienable liability wasn't a thing? Or that the world was perfect, for that matter?

I'm conflating freedom of opportunity with freedom of being given pussy, in the same post I talked about the right to bodily autonomy..? Ok, then.

I don't know what it is you're trying to say. It sounds to me like you're stanning for hate groups like incels expectations. I'm saying that is bullshit. You talk about the human rights penal code, but like in a way that "Modern society" which you just vaguely throws out there is somehow a short hand for "give me shit, or its okay im a toxic shitbag" or whatever.

capitalCORN

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,191

saturnineCarrier said:
I'm not sure I follow. Where did I claim that inalienable liability wasn't a thing? Or that the world was perfect, for that matter?

You made the case about irreparable illness as a focus to ague that not everyone gets the same opportunities. If we respect the dignity of the individual, we reserve the individual to respect the dignity of others. People are allowed to be angry and upset,. We judge others based on their beliefs and actions. And if individuals choose to react by denigrating others to satisfy their own sorrow, that's destructive and dangerous. Think for a second how prevalent throughout history it must've been for sexuality to be weaponized against people, with the looming threat of social severance, personal ruin, and physical punishment. Now imagine using modern sexual agency as an excuse to strip personhood and cause threat to others.

Rmagnus

Member

Jun 10, 2018

#1,192

LOL first the racist are mentally ill, now the incels cunt bags get to use the term, these cunts are giving mentally ill ppl a bad name.

saturnineCarrier

Member

Jun 10, 2018

#1,193

Kimura said:
I don't know what it is you're trying to say. It sounds to me like you're stanning for hate groups like incels expectations. I'm saying that is bullshit. You talk about the human rights penal code, but like in a way that "Modern society" which you just vaguely throws out there is somehow a short hand for "give me shit, or its okay im a toxic shitbag" or whatever.

I thought that stating "I'm not defending or advocating for incels" was clear enough. My whole point was that saying "the world doesn't owe you shit" because incels are a terrorist-sympathizing hate group is bullshit, because the reason they started turning that way is still valid : there is a malaise when it comes to loneliness in our society that afflicts more than just incels, and we don't give people the self-care tools to let them come to term and escape this state.

And hey, maybe it can help with the whole incel issue as well.

capitalCORN said:
You made the case about irreparable illness as a focus to ague that not everyone gets the same opportunities. If we respect the dignity of the individual, we reserve the individual to respect the dignity of others. People are allowed to be angry and upset,. We judge others based on their beliefs and actions. And if individuals choose to react by denigrating others to satisfy their own sorrow, that's destructive and dangerous. Think for a second how prevalent throughout history it must've been for sexuality to be weaponized against people, with the looming threat of social severance, personal ruin, and physical punishment. Now imagine using modern sexual agency as an excuse to strip personhood and cause threat to others.

I didn't talk about "irreparable" illness, but otherwise I agree with all of this? I don't think I've ever said that incels should be cajoled or anything of the sort. Simply that they're a symptom of something more deeply entrenched, something that society owes its citizens to try to solve.

Crackhead_Bob

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,194

eot said:
If 15% of men aren't getting any, then that's a separate problem from what this thread's about I think, which is a tiny subset of that 15% who are shitbags.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this phenomenon. All's I know is that not everyone who is stuck in a loop of self hatred end up as an incel. Many people struggle without forfeiting their humanity. That's why I used these comedians as examples. I empathize with anyone in that rut, but there are limits, and it usually involves crossing that metaphorical line. I can only speak for myself personally, but I never stooped so low as to embrace racism, misogyny, and even fascism when I was at my lowest. It's such bottom barrel justification or excuse finding when you do that. When people are in the pits of despair, they can either do something positive, or move the fuck out of the way and not be part of the problem. But stewing in resentment to the point of nihilism is beyond the pale for me. I refuse to hand wave and rationalize it as if the perpetrators have no self agency of their own.

VeryHighlander

The Fallen

Jun 10, 2018

#1,195

Crossing Eden said:
Prostitution isn't the cure to the incel mindset due to their view of women. It's not about sex.

Yep. If you can't treat people with respect without the reward of sex it's an empathy issue. People need to care about each other more in general, prostitution just fixes these basic urges to cum, but it won't help anybody actually respect their neighbors

Crackhead_Bob

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,196

Kimura said:
I don't know what it is you're trying to say. It sounds to me like you're stanning for hate groups like incels expectations. I'm saying that is bullshit. You talk about the human rights penal code, but like in a way that "Modern society" which you just vaguely throws out there is somehow a short hand for "give me shit, or its okay im a toxic shitbag" or whatever.

What is stanning?

Dernhelm

Avenger

Jun 10, 2018

#1,197

Crackhead_Bob said:
What is stanning?

Gaming term, just means to 'fight/argue/defend in the name of'.

Crackhead_Bob

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,198

I learn something new. Thanks.

Wamb0wneD

Banned

Jun 10, 2018

#1,199

Crackhead_Bob said:
I learn something new. Thanks.

SteadFast said:
Gaming term, just means to 'fight/argue/defend in the name of'.

Since when is Eminem gaming related lol.
It's music related.

Dernhelm

Avenger

Jun 10, 2018

#1,200

Wamb0wneD said:
Since when is Eminem gaming related lol.
It's music related.

Lol my bad, only ever seen it used in gaming threads.

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