Val Kilmer calls out Anthony Bourdain for ‘selfish’ suicide

I Don't Like · Jun 9, 2018

Wow what a complete asshole. Making someone else's auicide about "what you did to us." You're some random dude who knew him not his closest family. Shut the fuck up.

I can understand how family members can sometimes feel anger at a relative committing suicide but fucking Val Kilmer? Fuck off.

Mikasangelos said:
Yeah OPs title is a bit off. Especially considering Val's actual statements.

I agree with Val. Bourdain was in pain but his decision to commit suicide copiously put many others very close to him in a lot of pain too.

So that's grounds for him calling Bourdain selfish?

cervanky · Jun 9, 2018

Why are so many people here just looking at the outcome (leaving behind friends and family who loved him) and working backwards from that to conclude it was a selfish act?

Depression is in part a breaking down of a person's ability to rationally envision outcome. A depressed person might deeply believe that others would be better off without them, or they might be so overcome with their own despair that they aren't capable of considering others welfare, let alone their own.

How can ending the self possibly be construed as a selfish act, which would be an act that benefits the self? Isn't that blatantly contradictory? It's not remotely close to an insightful, intelligent, helpful or emotionally meaningful way to frame such a tragedy. Telling someone who deeply hates themselves and wants to die that they're selfish on top of that ain't gonna help since it further conflates an illness with someone's very being.

People sometimes fight against suicidal ideation by trying to invoke what remains of their rational faculties (like remembering that they'll be missed, that they have others to live for, or that the moment will pass) in the face of an overwhelming emotional urge to end their life. It may take tremendous strength to fight that, and at the same time only take a momentary failure in their effort fighting against that delusion for them to die. How is succumbing to that awful illness "selfish"?

UltimateHigh · Jun 9, 2018

Mikasangelos said:
Yeah OPs title is a bit off. Especially considering Val's actual statements.

I agree with Val. Bourdain was in pain but his decision to commit suicide copiously put many others very close to him in a lot of pain too.

They'll likely heal with time.

Bourdain, on the other hand, is dead, and there's millions more going through the same shit where antagonistic judgments like calling suicide victims "selfish" help absolutely no one.

Do better.

Jam · Jun 9, 2018

UltimateHigh said:
They'll likely heal with time.

Bourdain, on the other hand, is dead, and there's millions more going through the same shit where antagonistic judgments help absolutely no one.

Do better.

You're not the authority on grief and how people deal with loss.

Nanashrew · Jun 9, 2018

Calling those who commit or have attempted suicide selfish, or in other cases, you go to hell for it, only makes it more likely for them to commit suicide because at that breaking point from deep dark depression, you're broken down beyond belief. Being blamed for being selfish and being told the God doesn't love you are horrible things to say

I speak as someone who has attempted it several times in my life.

Paradoxal Utopia · Jun 9, 2018

UltimateHigh said:
They'll likely heal with time.

Bourdain, on the other hand, is dead, and there's millions more going through the same shit where antagonistic judgments do absolutely nothing to help. Do better.

Do better..like what, exactly? Post "RIP"? How do you want anyone in this thread of "help" Bourdain or his family? So many people here are removing all agency from Bourdain, and pretending that suicide was just an inevitable outcome of depression that he had absolutely no control over. Which isn't the case. Suicide ISN'T inevitable or something outside of one's control, and I don't know why pretending it is and removing all agency from someone who decides to kill themselves is supposed to "help" anyone.

Pretending there's nothing he could have done differently does absolutely nothing to help those suffering from depression and making them feel like there's other routes beside suicide. It does nothing but make them feel like that's their only choice and fate. Claiming suicide, in many cases, can be selfish is not an "antagonistic judgement", it's a statement of fact.

Jadusable · Jun 9, 2018

UltimateHigh said:
If he wanted to be left alone, he shouldn't be offering up controversial takes on social media.

Sorry, but these "i need to let everyone know how selfish this suicide victim was being" judgments are just trash, and they'll always be trash. You're not helping a single goddamn person with that shit.

Everyone grieves differently. Who knows, maybe he felt that his frustrations were crawling and twisting inside him so bad and he just needed to get it out there in some form of catharsis. Maybe he did it to help himself.

Spirit of Jazz · Jun 9, 2018

Jam said:
You're not the authority on grief and how people deal with loss.

Apparently a hell are a lot of people are an authority on mental illness when they seem to be incapable of comprehending the basics and are willing to stand by someone who's views are at least in part informed by a spiritual guide rather than a healthcare professional. If you're uninformed on suicide and depression given they're not exactly new under-researched concepts this kinda shows that you don't actually care about the matters so what exactly is your opinion worth beyond ignorantly stigmatising those with mental health issues?

If you lose somebody close due to suicide, for some reason feel the need to blame someone, then blame the victim rather than yourself for being unable to do some I think it says a heck of a lot about the kind of person you are.

hey it's that dog · Jun 9, 2018

cervanky said:
Why are so many people here just looking at the outcome (leaving behind friends and family who loved him) and working backwards from that to conclude it was a selfish act?

Depression is in part a breaking down of a person's ability to rationally envision outcome. A depressed person might deeply believe that others would be better off without them, or they might be so overcome with their own despair that they aren't capable of considering others welfare, let alone their own.

How can ending the self possibly be construed as a selfish act, which would be an act that benefits the self? Isn't that blatantly contradictory? It's not remotely close to an insightful, intelligent, helpful or emotionally meaningful way to frame such a tragedy. Telling someone who deeply hates themselves and wants to die that they're selfish on top of that ain't gonna help since it further conflates an illness with someone's very being.

People sometimes fight against suicidal ideation by trying to invoke what remains of their rational faculties (like remembering that they'll be missed, that they have others to live for, or that the moment will pass) in the face of an overwhelming emotional urge to end their life. It may only take take a momentary failure in that effort fighting against that delusion for them to die. How is succumbing to that awful illness "selfish"?

This is a good post, genuinely.

Now do one about how anger can make people say things that are hurtful without consideration of the consequences.

fhqwhgads · Jun 9, 2018

I can understand what posters are trying to say with how obviously he's going through the stages of grief and what people he has affected, but i'm sorry, calling a suicidal person selfish is straight up victim blaming to me and stuff like that is still why people with depression go out of their way to hide it or not let people help them with the fear of being judged or seen as lesser for suffering through it, especially with how depression can affect one's mindset.

EloquentM · Jun 9, 2018

It's telling that so many are able to understand the grieving because it is a rational human response as opposed to depression itself. Sucks man.

UltimateHigh · Jun 9, 2018

Jam said:
You're not the authority on grief and how people deal with loss.

I certainly got an opinion on the matter, and I'm sharing it, just like Kilmer did.

You can enlighten me on how his, and other similar reactions, help serve the greater good for the people dealing with the countless complexities of depression though.

I mean, that's just what these people need to be hearing right, more judgments, and i'm sure his closest family is loving the more opinionated, more antagonistic approach of the "selfish" brigades.

cosmicblizzard · Jun 9, 2018

When I was 15 and my best friend committed suicide, between sobs I called him a selfish asshole when standing over his body at his wake. It was something I legitimately believed to be a selfish act alongside my feelings of what I could have done differently to prevent it from happening. It wasn't until I dealt with my own depression later in life that I realized it wasn't as simple as calling it selfish.

I'm not going to chastise a grieving person for their words when I've been in the same boat.

Deleted member 22630 · Jun 9, 2018

I guess I should explain myself. I myself have suffered from suicidal ideation and my mother committed suicide when I was a teenager. It was selfish of her but I can't bring myself to blame her.

Ultima_5 · Jun 9, 2018

As someone who's best friend committed suicide I️ understand Val's stance. It's a complicated wave of emotions especially for the first year or two. People jumping on him are being assholes

Secret Fawful · Jun 9, 2018

cervanky said:
Why are so many people here just looking at the outcome (leaving behind friends and family who loved him) and working backwards from that to conclude it was a selfish act?

Depression is in part a breaking down of a person's ability to rationally envision outcome. A depressed person might deeply believe that others would be better off without them, or they might be so overcome with their own despair that they aren't capable of considering others welfare, let alone their own.

How can ending the self possibly be construed as a selfish act, which would be an act that benefits the self? Isn't that blatantly contradictory? It's not remotely close to an insightful, intelligent, helpful or emotionally meaningful way to frame such a tragedy. Telling someone who deeply hates themselves and wants to die that they're selfish on top of that ain't gonna help since it further conflates an illness with someone's very being.

People sometimes fight against suicidal ideation by trying to invoke what remains of their rational faculties (like remembering that they'll be missed, that they have others to live for, or that the moment will pass) in the face of an overwhelming emotional urge to end their life. It may take tremendous strength to fight that, and at the same time only take a momentary failure in their effort fighting against that delusion for them to die. How is succumbing to that awful illness "selfish"?

This post deserves more credit.

Atisha · Jun 9, 2018

Vonnegut said:
They are both illnesses that over which the sufferers have little control.

If depression is a disease, like say cancer or heart disease, or dementia, why does it come and go? Cancer, Heart Disease and especailly dementia do not just come and go. Specifically why does the mood improve, the next day, and your laughing and carrying on, and having a good time?

Earlier though - your in a state of pure misery.

If it was a brain disorder like some contend why is it not Pervasive?

Also this belief is dangerous, and thats the real point. It says i'm a victim of my physiology. Can you see how this belief would contribute to someone feeling hoplessness and despair? That there is no relief, and that life is a prison sentence, and you never know when the next wave will hit, and you will be drug to the bottom?

And how that ideology could precipitate thoughts of suicide?

Deleted member 22630 · Jun 9, 2018

Atisha said:
If depression is a disease, like say cancer or heart disease, or dementia, why does it come and go? Specifically why does the mood improve, the next day, and your laughing and carrying on, and having a good time.

Earlier though - your in a state of pure misery.

If it was a brain disorder like some contend why is it not Pervasive?

Also this belief is dangerous, and thats the real point. It says i'm a victim of my physiology. Can you see how this belief would contribute to someone feeling hoplessness and despair? That there is no relief, and that life is a prison sentence, and you never know when the next wave will hit?

And how that ideology could precipitate thoughts of suicide?

I can explain your first question, depression does not mean you won't have highs. What it means is you'll experience more lows than highs and said highs won't last as long and progressively be few and far between.

Deleted member 11413 · Jun 9, 2018

Atisha said:
If depression is a disease, like say cancer or heart disease, or dementia, why does it come and go? Specifically why does the mood improve, the next day, and your laughing and carrying on, and having a good time.

Earlier though - your in a state of pure misery.

If it was a brain disorder like some contend why is it not Pervasive?

Also this belief is dangerous, and thats the real point. It says i'm a victim of my physiology. Can you see how this belief would contribute to someone feeling hoplessness and despair? That there is no relief, and that life is a prison sentence, and you never know when the next wave will hit, and you will be drug to the bottom?

And how that ideology could precipitate thoughts of suicide?

People who have cancer or heart disease or dementia have their good days and bad days too. How is that any different? Hell, you can have cancer for years without even knowing it and without symptoms becoming noticeable while it slowly kills your body. Your understanding of this subject seems severely flawed.

Nanashrew · Jun 9, 2018

Ultima_5 said:
As someone who's best friend committed suicide I️ understand Val's stance. It's a complicated wave of emotions especially for the first year or two. People jumping on him are being assholes

No, some are just trying to inform on why that sort of stance can cause harm for those who suffer so much in life that they feel their only option is suicide and how that stance only makes it more likely for the person suffering to hide their illness and commit suicide.

To someone so broken down, to be blamed for the suffering they feel, that your depression who was telling lies all this time, the outside world comes in and confirms everything to you that those lies are truth. To be blamed, called selfish, to say people who commit suicide go to hell, it's all the same. No one, not even a God will help you. You're left truly and utterly alone, isolated in the world.

cervanky · Jun 9, 2018

Atisha said:
If depression is a disease, like say cancer or heart disease, or dementia, why does it come and go? Cancer, Heart Disease and especailly dementia do not just come and go. Specifically why does the mood improve, the next day, and your laughing and carrying on, and having a good time?

I have a chronic gastrointestinal disease that oscillates between keeping me housebound every day and periods of remission that can last years where I can enjoy life to the fullest extent with zero symptoms, and would appear to anyone that I'm perfectly healthy. And yet at any point for the rest of my life it can come back and can never be cured, there will always be that chance, though I can lower the probability of facing those symptoms by taking medication indefinitely. It comes and goes, you could say. What you're describing isn't how disease works, physical or mental. It's not always an infection by a virus or bacteria that can be hypothetically eradicated, you are ill-informed about how bodies work and what disease is.

There's something wrong with my gut organs. Some people have something wrong with their brain, which is also an organ in the body that can face a myriad of problems. My disease has obvious physical symptoms, but imagine how awful it is for an illness to impact the organ that's responsible for your ability to think and feel. Therapy can be an effective tool for sure because the brain is a unique organ that's capable of altering its own physiology through the firing of neurons, but just because someone can fight depression on their own or with the help of others doesn't mean it isn't a disease.

Vonnegut · Jun 9, 2018

Atisha said:
If depression is a disease, like say cancer or heart disease, or dementia, why does it come and go? Cancer, Heart Disease and especailly dementia do not just come and go. Specifically why does the mood improve, the next day, and your laughing and carrying on, and having a good time?

Earlier though - your in a state of pure misery.

If it was a brain disorder like some contend why is it not Pervasive?

Also this belief is dangerous, and thats the real point. It says i'm a victim of my physiology. Can you see how this belief would contribute to someone feeling hoplessness and despair? That there is no relief, and that life is a prison sentence, and you never know when the next wave will hit, and you will be drug to the bottom?

And how that ideology could precipitate thoughts of suicide?

So you believe it is not a disease? Because it has different characteristics than other diseases it is not a disease?

My way of thinking is not dangerous. I simply don't judge people who commit suicide. I don't use these tragedies as opportunities to jump on a soapbox and pretend that I'm better than other people. Shaming people will not deter them from committing suicide. True selfishness is exhibited by the people who talk about how they made it and therefore others must be weak.

Joeytj · Jun 9, 2018

Seeing as Kilmer was friends with him and loved him, anger is kind of understandable. No doubt many who loved Anthony felt the same to some degree.

It's not the "right" way to feel I guess, but it's a strong emotion nonetheless and valid one. I just saw a video of how Kilmer talks now because of his throat cancer and how he struggles every day because of it, and no doubt he feels Bourdain left too soon or "left" him to suffer alone.

I don't know, let him grieve.

Cameron122 · Jun 9, 2018

Fiction said:
I think right now he's mourning hard, and people react to death in all kinds of ways. Anger is a big symptom of mourning.

Now if he spouts the same bs a few months from now, then we can dogpile him I think.

I'm with Fiction here.

Deleted member 22630 · Jun 9, 2018

Joeytj said:
Seeing as Kilmer was friends with him and loved him, anger is kind of understandable. No doubt many who loved Anthony felt the same to some degree.

It's not the "right" way to feel I guess, but it's a strong emotion nonetheless and valid one. I just saw a video of how Kilmer talks now because of his throat cancer and how he struggles every day because of it, and no doubt he feels Bourdain left too soon or "left" him to suffer alone.

I don't know, let him grieve.

Actually feeling as if you have been "left" to suffer alone is most likely the answer to everyone who feels this way.

Nerokis · Jun 9, 2018

Not the best thread title, in my opinion. Kilmer is clearly incorrect to use the word 'selfish' here, but "lashes out while in a state of mourning in a way that also projects his own past struggles" probably shouldn't be summarized as "calls out."

I know Kilmer's behavior isn't helpful, but sometimes it isn't necessary to judge behavior exclusively in terms of helpfulness. Those shouldering grief after a horrible event are primarily beholden to the grieving process, and it should be possible to allow room for that while also picking up the slack and correcting whatever false/irrational/counterproductive narratives pop up around that.

Secret Fawful · Jun 9, 2018

This thread has convinced me to never seek help or talk to anyone about my mental health issues. The amount of stigma flying around in here makes it obvious what will happen. I've already lost multiple people in my life in the past few months, and this topic makes it all too clear how people really think. With anger and a lack of understanding instead of compassion. I do think those feelings are valid because most people can never understand, but I'll never reach out to friends or anyone else ever again, outside of mental health professionals.

I just hope others feel better after reading this thread than I do.

Deleted member 22630 · Jun 9, 2018

Secret Fawful said:
This thread has convinced me to never seek help or talk to anyone about my mental health issues. The amount of stigma flying around in here makes it obvious what will happen. I've already lost multiple people in my life in the past few months, and this topic makes it all too clear how people really think. With anger and a lack of understanding instead of compassion. I do think those feelings are valid because most people can never understand, but I'll never reach out to friends or anyone else ever again, outside of mental health professionals.

I just hope others feel better after reading this thread than I do.

Honestly, sadly you're most likely correct, few people care, even fewer will understand. Now if you're going to die or commit suicide or anything of the sort, you're friends and family can help you get the professional help you need, but that's really about it in my experience. When it comes to using them as a "therapist/counselor", just don't they make a shit said profession.

Deleted member 4367 · Jun 9, 2018

People continue to attribute rational logic to an often irrational action.

Slime · Jun 9, 2018

Like I can understand feeling this way, because I did when my grandfather took his own life, but why the fuck do so many people feel the need to say it publicly? You're not going to shame sick people into good mental health, and it's not going to make his loved ones feel any better. It's an emotional, asinine take that helps no one.

TinfoilHatsROn · Jun 9, 2018

Secret Fawful said:
This thread has convinced me to never seek help or talk to anyone about my mental health issues. The amount of stigma flying around in here makes it obvious what will happen. I've already lost multiple people in my life in the past few months, and this topic makes it all too clear how people really think. With anger and a lack of understanding instead of compassion. I do think those feelings are valid because most people can never understand, but I'll never reach out to friends or anyone else ever again, outside of mental health professionals.

I just hope others feel better after reading this thread than I do.

Pretty much.

Rev408 · Jun 9, 2018

Calling someone selfish for wanting relief from their pain is incredibly ignorant to me.

Daysean · Jun 9, 2018

Secret Fawful said:
This thread has convinced me to never seek help or talk to anyone about my mental health issues. The amount of stigma flying around in here makes it obvious what will happen. I've already lost multiple people in my life in the past few months, and this topic makes it all too clear how people really think. With anger and a lack of understanding instead of compassion. I do think those feelings are valid because most people can never understand, but I'll never reach out to friends or anyone else ever again, outside of mental health professionals.

I just hope others feel better after reading this thread than I do.

"how people really think"
Bruh, some internet people on a forum are not representative of your friends/the world.
Always seek help or talk to people if you can, or want to really.

Mammoth Jones · Jun 9, 2018

I understand the anger. I don't understand airing that shit publicly as a public figure.

Secret Fawful · Jun 9, 2018

Daysean said:
"how people really think"
Bruh, some internet people on a forum are not representative of your friends/the world.
Always seek help or talk to people if you can, or want to really.

Internet people are people and are representative, but also every one of my IRL friends have reacted that way. Every. Single. One. With anger, like Val. So no, I ain't reaching out.

Deepthought_ · Jun 9, 2018

I don't understand this and calling someone who commits suicide selfish to me is wrong

If a friend of mine killed himself I would be sad and want to know why but not anger at him or calling him selfish . To have the mind frame of wanting to kill oneself is a mental illness . He was 60 and healthy and looked good for his age .

Daysean · Jun 9, 2018

Secret Fawful said:
Internet people are people and are representative, but also every one of my IRL friends have reacted that way. Every. Single. One. With anger, like Val. So no, I ain't reaching out.

Ah, well that understandable, sucks ass, but I can understand your viewpoint, if even your IRL friends are assholes

Secret Fawful · Jun 9, 2018

Daysean said:
Ah, well that understandable, sucks ass, but I can understand your viewpoint, if even your IRL friends are assholes

What sucks is that even when behavior is toxic, I can understand it because people really don't get it unless they've been through it, and due to the nature of depression, even then don't get it.

Bruceleeroy · Jun 9, 2018

Kest920 said:
I just read it I wouldn't say he called him out but more so deeply upset at him not considering his options and I take Val Kilmers post as he really did care about him

Exactly. This is pretty much how I would react at first to any of my family or friends doing something so tragic

Deleted member 22070 · Jun 9, 2018

cervanky said:
Why are so many people here just looking at the outcome (leaving behind friends and family who loved him) and working backwards from that to conclude it was a selfish act?

Depression is in part a breaking down of a person's ability to rationally envision outcome. A depressed person might deeply believe that others would be better off without them, or they might be so overcome with their own despair that they aren't capable of considering others welfare, let alone their own.

How can ending the self possibly be construed as a selfish act, which would be an act that benefits the self? Isn't that blatantly contradictory? It's not remotely close to an insightful, intelligent, helpful or emotionally meaningful way to frame such a tragedy. Telling someone who deeply hates themselves and wants to die that they're selfish on top of that ain't gonna help since it further conflates an illness with someone's very being.

People sometimes fight against suicidal ideation by trying to invoke what remains of their rational faculties (like remembering that they'll be missed, that they have others to live for, or that the moment will pass) in the face of an overwhelming emotional urge to end their life. It may take tremendous strength to fight that, and at the same time only take a momentary failure in their effort fighting against that delusion for them to die. How is succumbing to that awful illness "selfish"?

Secret Fawful said:
This thread has convinced me to never seek help or talk to anyone about my mental health issues. The amount of stigma flying around in here makes it obvious what will happen. I've already lost multiple people in my life in the past few months, and this topic makes it all too clear how people really think. With anger and a lack of understanding instead of compassion. I do think those feelings are valid because most people can never understand, but I'll never reach out to friends or anyone else ever again, outside of mental health professionals.

I just hope others feel better after reading this thread than I do.

Thank you both.

For having suffered from depression and a severely suicidal and ill mother, nothing else that will be said will be truer and more "useful" than this.

AbortedWalrusFetus · Jun 9, 2018

I think anger is a valid emotion to feel in this circumstance. Just being angry does not preclude one from also feeling sorrow

Psychotron · Jun 9, 2018

Val is grieving and fighting a huge battle of his own. He needs to believe what he's saying now to keep pushing on himself.

imbarkus · Jun 9, 2018

Psychotron said:
Val is grieving and fighting a huge battle of his own. He needs to believe what he's saying now to keep pushing on himself.

Also saw this on reddit and was about to post, thanks.

Mahonay · Jun 9, 2018

Kilmer just sounds like someone who is grieving and struggling with a sudden loss of someone close to him. I know the dude had had plenty of his own issues, probably makes this hit even closer for him.

I don't agree with what he's saying, but I'm also not going to tell anyone how they should digest their friend killing themselves.

EloquentM · Jun 9, 2018

Be angry at the damn disorder not the person.

Sordid Plebeian · Jun 9, 2018

Seems like a grievance to me, he's only trying to cope.

Liljagare · Jun 9, 2018

What on earth. I have gone through the entire depression thing myself. I saved some of the writings to myself, maybe, just maybe, someone can understand it:

This was my suicide note:

As someone that has been down that road, you CANNOT EVER STATE THAT A PERSON COMITTING SUICIDE WAS A SELFSOSH BASTARD.

I guess people just don't get it, when you hit that low, your brain doesn't work anymore, it just isn't you, and it just decides for you at times, Your brain dopesn't make the decisions, you want to be free of the pains.

It is so hard to explain to people that have never gone through a true depresssion, what it really is.

Your brain doesn't want to suffer any more, it want's peace. It is overstressed and want's to relax, it wan'ts to go on a peacefull beach, and relax. but nooone will let it, nobody can understand the pain of it, unless you have lived through it.

You want peace, it is that, you want to be left alone, be at peace, you want to be able to be resting at that sunny beach, but nooone will let you.. Doesn't make any sense, but please, let me rest-- I am tired, and want't to sleep, you, just disturbe me.

EloquentM · Jun 9, 2018

Sordid Plebeian said:
Seems like a grievance to me, he's only trying to cope.

So he's being selfish how ironic

andycapps · Jun 9, 2018

RedMercury said:
As someone with young children I agree with the notion you have no right to do that to them but I would never berate him posthumously for what he did because it's understandable. Depression puts you not in a correct state of mind, it takes a lot to deny your brain what it is screaming at you, it's the same thing with addictions. He was 61, he had likely been battling his own mind for decades and potentially had decades of the same in front of him.

I think when someone that is 61, has an accomplished career, by all accounts a good family, a young daughter, etc makes the decision to end their life that it's something that they struggled with for a long time. The pain became worse than the alternative, for him, in that time. It's really sad and I hope that for every awful thing like this that more awareness is put towards mental health.

Sordid Plebeian · Jun 9, 2018

EloquentM said:
So he's being selfish how ironic

Yes, he even said that in his grievance and is distraught by the loss of a close friend and does not understand why he did it. Sorry that he's not a perfect human and in a very vulnerable emotional state.

Val Kilmer calls out Anthony Bourdain for ‘selfish’ suicide

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