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Val Kilmer calls out Anthony Bourdain for ‘selfish’ suicide
- Thread starter Squarehard
- Start date
Seems like a fairly standard reaction when someone you genuinely care about kills themselves.
I knew a guy at university who hung himself in his room, his flatmates as well as being shocked and saddened were also incredibly angry with him for doing it, for leaving them like that, for putting them through the ordeal of finding his 3 day old corpse. Understandable emotion I would say.
I knew a guy at university who hung himself in his room, his flatmates as well as being shocked and saddened were also incredibly angry with him for doing it, for leaving them like that, for putting them through the ordeal of finding his 3 day old corpse. Understandable emotion I would say.
I understand Kilmer. and it is kind of normal to feel that way. I had two suicides one in 2013 and one in 2015 in my family/close friends circle.
Anger is common thing to go through when grieving especially if you were close with the person who died. While I don't agree with Val Kilmer's comment I will not hold this against him.
This read fantastically authentic to me.
something he maybe should have done privately but he sounds destraught over the loss of someone who brought something soulful to his own experience.
I definitely respect reactions like this, as complicated as they are, over weightless platitudes.
something he maybe should have done privately but he sounds destraught over the loss of someone who brought something soulful to his own experience.
I definitely respect reactions like this, as complicated as they are, over weightless platitudes.
I spent the past half hour typing up a hundred responses basically trying to say this. Thanks.
User Banned (1 Week): Downplaying mental health issues.
I empathize with the mental aspect of it, I really do.
But the actual act of suicide is an extremely selfish act. There is no getting around it. (IMO, I suppose)
A person can still make selfish acts even under great emotional and mental instability.
I really don't want to get in a fight with people who suffer from depression, I think it really is a matter of semantics.
A very poor analogy but I will use it anyways...a guy whose paranoid delusions tells him to kill that young girl cause she's a demon...how we want to describe the act from his POV in criminal or social terms, that's gonna change over time. But at the end of the day, the girl was murdered. No matter what disease he had that made him think the way he did will change that.
Again, I don't want to get tripped up in arguing wording...suicide and depression are problems society needs to address better and handle. But the act is indeed a selfish one.
I edited my post. Its not something I wanna argue over. You either get it or you don't.
If he knew Bourdain and was friends with him, that's fine to have that reaction, that said I don't think Facebook is really the platform to share that type of thing on. Be angry if you want but putting it out there on Facebook isn't doing any favors to his family.
Off-topic;
I really love how all of you are being so mature and respectfull towards depression and also to people whom suffer from it and, like in these very sad occasions, choose the hardest way and leave it all behind.
I have lost 3 friends who suffered from depression who choose the hard way out. 2 of them in a span of 6 months. Myself have been in the same pit of desperation and just want it to end. But i managed to climb out of the pit and embrace the little things that would give me happines.
It always makes me angry if i hear people say "what a selfish person" or "choose the easy way out".
Ofcourse if people very close to the person say that i understand. Like yall said. Its grieving.
Sorry it this is completely misplaced.. but i just dont know when else to say it.
On-topic:
It looks like Val was very close with him and he's shocked by what happened. Ofcourse he is.
I do hope that when he find a place to give it a rest he can change his opinion on 'the most selfish act.
Rest in piece Anthony
I really love how all of you are being so mature and respectfull towards depression and also to people whom suffer from it and, like in these very sad occasions, choose the hardest way and leave it all behind.
I have lost 3 friends who suffered from depression who choose the hard way out. 2 of them in a span of 6 months. Myself have been in the same pit of desperation and just want it to end. But i managed to climb out of the pit and embrace the little things that would give me happines.
It always makes me angry if i hear people say "what a selfish person" or "choose the easy way out".
Ofcourse if people very close to the person say that i understand. Like yall said. Its grieving.
Sorry it this is completely misplaced.. but i just dont know when else to say it.
On-topic:
It looks like Val was very close with him and he's shocked by what happened. Ofcourse he is.
I do hope that when he find a place to give it a rest he can change his opinion on 'the most selfish act.
Rest in piece Anthony
This is almost the exact reaction I had when a friend committed suicide a few years back.
I was so angry at him for what I felt at the time was the easy way out. He had gone whilst the rest of us were left sorting through the holes and destruction he had left behind.
I was so angry at him for what I felt at the time was the easy way out. He had gone whilst the rest of us were left sorting through the holes and destruction he had left behind.
Yea I came to that conclusion too when I was writing my last post...so I will bow out of this discussion cause, you are right...someone arguing the semantics side against someone arguing a personal emotional side, not worth it.
Didn't read your post before you edited, but I just want to say even though it is ultimately a selfish act, I totally get why labeling it as such would cause many people to dismiss suicidal depression, and not be understanding of how real an issue it is for those who have it. So I understand the push back of not wanting people to call it a selfish act cause they probably aren't looking any deeper than that.
It being selfish doesn't diminish that sometimes you just can't win. I find it ultimately irrelevant why he lost his battle yesterday, because it could have just have easily been today, or tomorrow or next week.
Sometimes people lose and choose to be selfish because they can't burden that tremendous pain of living anymore. Anger and grief is a perfectly normal and human reaction, but once the anger subsides, then you need to channel that feeling of loss into trying to do your best to help others.
I've buried my best friend because of this, I know that anger, but we are angry because we are still here and we no longer have that person with us to love. Once you let your anger out, don't give into it, talk to those that also loved him and give them comfort and care. They are what you need to focus on now.
It's selfish to decide that you need this person to keep living because his loss would cause you pain, as well. Suicide and mental illness are complex, innately human things. I'm glad we are at the point now where, at least, nobody is calling him cowardly for being lost to his demons and his pain.
Sometimes people lose and choose to be selfish because they can't burden that tremendous pain of living anymore. Anger and grief is a perfectly normal and human reaction, but once the anger subsides, then you need to channel that feeling of loss into trying to do your best to help others.
I've buried my best friend because of this, I know that anger, but we are angry because we are still here and we no longer have that person with us to love. Once you let your anger out, don't give into it, talk to those that also loved him and give them comfort and care. They are what you need to focus on now.
It's selfish to decide that you need this person to keep living because his loss would cause you pain, as well. Suicide and mental illness are complex, innately human things. I'm glad we are at the point now where, at least, nobody is calling him cowardly for being lost to his demons and his pain.
You are just seeing it as you do from your angle as an onlooker and I am seeing it from my angle as someone who suffers from it myself. Its just not something one can debate calmly or rationally given the extreme emotional distance between the 2 viewpoints. I reacted as emotionally as I did given that I myself suffer from depression, but also I was a very big admirer of Anthony Bourdain. I didn't like the idea of anyone putting that kind of label on him given the context.
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No, but you would be mad at a cancer patient that dies without treatment because they refuse western medicine. That would be the equivalent.
No, the equivalent would be getting mad at a cancer patient who tried treatment but still died anyway. The "depression as physical illness like heart disease" thing is a helpful metaphor but is not literal. Depression is a mental illness, caused by a chemical imbalance that modern science still does not fully understand, and our best efforts at fixing it involve mixtures of complex drugs and therapy. The idea that everyone who dies from suicide must be a depressed person who never sought help, and that medication and therapy are some kind of miracle drug that works instantly for everyone, is not only dangerous but not even remotely accurate. Many people who try to get help via antidepressants or therapy still end up dying of suicide.
I said the same of my father when he committed suicide. I thought he was the most selfish person in the world for leaving my younger siblings behind. I got over it at the funeral.
I'd be upset if someone I cared for just up and committed suicide... In fact, I don't know how I'd direct my feelings. ;(
This is what really grieves me. As someone who battles Bipolar II, I can say with no uncertainty that suicidal ideation exists in a mindframe that is not thinking rationally. This is the disease. People who claim suicide as selfish need to understand that this makes no sense to the suicidal. At least for me, in proximity to severe danger to myself by myself, morality and reason goes out the window. It's a non-factor, not because I don't care about those things, but because there's a serious mindfuck at play that relegates them irrelevant. Not due to apathy, in my case at least, the entire way my thinking changes. It's terrifying because the foundation of thought's ripped out from underneath my feet.
The real danger of suicide is you're not thinking straight, which is always the underlying assumption in claiming selfishness. It's a mindframe that is so warped that it is even powerful enough to override the fundamental will to live. That instinct, the most powerful, overcome. People who claim it selfish have never touched the depths of mental illness, I don't care what they say.
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Agreed. It's very public but, he is hurting.
My best friend took his own life and I had a good amount of anger mixed in with sadness. You're angry of course for a number of reasons, but it's all a part of coming to terms with what has happened. I believe the anger still comes from love.
Mental illness is extremely complex. And I think those that suffer internally, have the right to decide when enough is enough. Or if nothing else, I think it's such a complex and deeply impacting thing, that I don't think suicide should always be viewed as this clear cut decision (the mindset someone is in at the time, and the struggle). So applying attributes such as "selfish", seems to minimize the action (or what goes behind doing it).
But I also get that some people grieve differentlly. And some people have anger and confusion fill them during these times. Suicide is traumatic for those left behind as well. So I get where he's coming from to an extent (even if I think he's misguided)
But I also get that some people grieve differentlly. And some people have anger and confusion fill them during these times. Suicide is traumatic for those left behind as well. So I get where he's coming from to an extent (even if I think he's misguided)
I see both sides here. Objectively, cold rationaile sees the act as a selfish one. You inflict great pain on those who love and care for you by taking your life. A sorrow which endures the rest of thier lives. Invading their waking, and their dreams. This is your parting gift.
On the other hand i have pesonally seen the depths of despair, and if you visit often enough it becomes a grating burden, maddening, a place where rationaile does not always prevail.
On the other hand i have pesonally seen the depths of despair, and if you visit often enough it becomes a grating burden, maddening, a place where rationaile does not always prevail.
Yes he's grieving but we as a society need to move past the anti-empathy, anti-human idea that suicide is selfish. That's victim blaming. That's the thinking you indulge in when you're unable or unwilling to contemplate the mental anguish a person feels at the bottom of a reality warping black hole of depression. It's surely a powerful thing if it can override someone's hard-coded survival instinct and tear them away from life. Let's give the victims of mental illness a little more credit.
This is complex. I don't necessarily agree with the language he is using but mainly because he is a famous actor and he is doing it very publically. I've had two people in my life at different points commit suicide, and I'd be lying if I didn't have some dark thoughts about what I thought about their decisions at the time.
Man it just sucks, I'm not sure why Bourdain is making me feel this way, I've watched his show sporadically but he just seemed like such a fun guy. So sad.
Man it just sucks, I'm not sure why Bourdain is making me feel this way, I've watched his show sporadically but he just seemed like such a fun guy. So sad.
How so? Why is it harmful?
I would've ended all this shit quite a while ago if it wasn't for my family and friends. If I was more selfish I would have had no problems leaving them behind grieving and I wouldn't be here today.
So yes, if you have people that care about you deeply then taking yourself away from them is a selfish act, by definition.
He's going through grief and needs an outlet it seems. People react differently to these things. I wouldn't hate on the guy honestly.
For example one of my close friends committed suicide back in February after getting super drunk and on a whim hung himself. Still many months later I have a mixture of sadness and anger at him for doing it. He had two little ones that he left behind and I want to ring his neck every time I think of him for making a permanent decision like that. I had to see him in his casket with his little girl's drawing on top of him that she made for him. I'll never forget that image and it'll be a while before I truly get over it.
For example one of my close friends committed suicide back in February after getting super drunk and on a whim hung himself. Still many months later I have a mixture of sadness and anger at him for doing it. He had two little ones that he left behind and I want to ring his neck every time I think of him for making a permanent decision like that. I had to see him in his casket with his little girl's drawing on top of him that she made for him. I'll never forget that image and it'll be a while before I truly get over it.
The article says he didnt know him personally. If that is true, then I think he ought not comment like this. I wouldn't have an issue if someone actually close to him sought release like this, but if you weren't, then I think you should keep these sorts of thoughts to yourself.
It's understandable people who knew him feel angry. But don't judge him for it. Suicide is not a normal, healthy behavior. It's the solution for someone who feels there's no way out of the pain and suffering they feel. We can pity that but don't call him selfish. It's not about you.
Thats how it reads to me also. Like someone posting their journal entry as they process their anger and confusion about a close loss.
You can tell just from the way he is writing that this is coming from shock and grief. I can understand that. Although I would never see something like this as a selfish act. Suicide usually results from simply running out of resources to cope with pain. Reality or rationality is not something they can perceive. Just like you may not be able to perceive rational options if you were suffering from major physical trauma. I think a lot of times people who don't understand why someone would do that jump to conclusions based on THEIR perceptions.
One day people will understand that trying to bring rationality (selfish perspectives) to people who are not being rational (suicide) is utteral stupid.
