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SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
In the name of Feminism and women's rights; we're becoming rather puritanical

Bayonetta is such a man's version of owning sexuality. "We're gonna pan to her vagina, but it's okay 'cause she wants you to."

Ya, but she's a dominatrix archetype too. She's all about the tease
Now if there was a monet where she's robbed of her agency and paraded around like a prize, that could be problematic
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Anya Oliwa from Wolfenstein. One of my favourite things about her is she takes the initiative in the romance and is crucial to bring down Blazko's fatalism in the sequel.
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No One Lives Forever's Cate Archer is a total badass.
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I agree with Wolfenstein. Anya is great.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
Oh... Oh, OP wanted sexualization that was positive.

Count me out.
Count me out too.

The premise is fraught with issues, not the least of which is the fact that it completely ignores the oppressive context in which this sexualization is pushed. It is, quite frankly, kind of impossible for sexualization to be "positive" in this environment without major changes to the way the game industry operates as a whole.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Bayonetta I feel definitely fits in here!
Kamiya might be a creep, but you swear he was the only one working on the bloody thing. Lets remember that a woman designed Bayonetta!
She is a badass who is also supposed to be sexy, it's supposed to be done in an over the top way, it's supposed to be done in a way where she doesn't give a shit!
Sometimes you can really tell when a man comments on these sort of things fyi, I would prefer to hear from a woman that didn't like her or her design, rather than the men coming in and saying "all sexualisation is bad", where's the fucking logic.
There's a difference between making a character just to be goggled at and "over inflated" and making one that's useful or naturally sexy.
A woman designing Bayonetta doesn't overshadow the male gazeyness of the games. Did the character designer make camera, was the clothes thing her idea?
 
Mar 10, 2018
8,739
I want to say Chloe in Uncharted 2. The game portrays her as sexy, and yet still bad-ass, independent, witty, and charming.
 

AliceAmber

Drive-in Mutant
Administrator
May 2, 2018
6,704
I'd like to think Lollipop Chainsaw's narrative and how it worked alongside of the gross sexualization of her Juliet and her family worked pretty well. Juliet and her sisters despite their comical attire maintain this independent demeanor. Hell the entire plot of the game is having Juliet save her helpless, headless boyfriend from Zombification while being constantly talked down or leered at by enemies. Shes' in control of the situation.

This!!!! Also holy crapola I wish there was going to be a sequel. This game was so fun.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
In the name of Feminism and women's rights; we're becoming rather puritanical
Stop that.

There is a HUGE difference between being sex-positive and being okay with the subjugation of women for male pleasure. The entire premise of the thread is undermined by the context in which it exists - that is to say, a world in which sexualization of women for male pleasure is the norm, not an exception and most certainly not done for any one woman's benefit the vast majority of the time. Trying to paint folks who are against this sort of thing as "puritanical" is beyond irritating. Just don't do it. Please.
 

Slime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,971
I don't think it's possible to tout a sexy character "in charge of her own sexualization" when most (all?) of these are just designed by horny dudes.
 

ToTheMoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,335
It's 2018 and Bayonetta is still the most polarizing example of female sexuality. When will your fave?

Can't tell if the people mentioning Bayonetta are attempting sarcasm or not, it's one of the worst offenders of how NOT to do it and a classic example of objectification. Sexualisation done right is doing it without objectification, Bayonetta is filled with objectification for the titillation of a very specific audience (straight men).

Castrating the Straight Male Gaze on Bayonetta (or at least making room for other ones!)
 

Krusty

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
199
User Banned (Permanent): Bigotry.
Jesus, who cares? We're dealing with fucking videogames here. Every week there seems to be threads on here about nonsensical rubbish like the representation of women and trannies and homosexuality in the Mushroom Kingdom. Female empowerment, disabled leprechauns, the list goes on. In almost all cases its a MAJOR deal and you lot are outraged at said representation and the fault lies squarely at the feet of evil white men.

Unless its some weird paedo Japanese dating sim, do you even enjoy the games you supposedly play?

The general consensus online is that ResetEra is populated by complete and utter dickheads.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
Stop that.

There is a HUGE difference between being sex-positive and being okay with the subjugation of women for male pleasure. The entire premise of the thread is undermined by the context in which it exists - that is to say, a world in which sexualization of women for male pleasure is the norm, not an exception and most certainly not done for any one woman's benefit the vast majority of the time. Trying to paint folks who are against this sort of thing as "puritanical" is beyond irritating. Just don't do it. Please.

Right, but do you agree that female sexuality can also be empowering?
That a woman can be proud of her body and show some skin because it makes her feel good?
You are aware that women also purchase sexy lingerie for themselves right? Because THEY look good and not for their boyfriends/husbands?

I'm not sure any video games have women being subjugated or being depicted as nothing but sex objects
Bayonetta would be considered sexploitation in the genres of film. Which ya, isn't exactly a nice thing
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,849
Witch hair is a thing ?

Yeah something about long hair and using it in spells and power that probably sprang from leaving your hair down instead of putting it up not being considered modest a long time ago. Don't know if that was the intention with Bayonetta's hair suit (probably not) but it's not 100% out of nowhere, I guess.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670

Conciliator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,132
I do actually think the chars in The Witcher 3 are pretty good, especially Yennifer and mage lady

Those are characters that definitely have their own agency, sexual and otherwise, and also their own fears and desires.

Anya from Wolfenstein is another great example.

But anyway if you want good female characters with believable sexual agency to be represented in games, get women in the writers/art design rooms.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
Yeah not having the scar on Triss can be added to the list of what they still fucked up among Ves. I'm not one to criticize her personality as I really like her and haven't read the books. But I've heard that scar mentioned earlier and would agree that it's disappointing. Geralt's scars are treated as cool battle marks if anything. I don't remember that joke thing in the game, but it seems similar to the Ves situation too where adressing it just made it worse. For Ciri to be fair, those are riding boots and those are known to have heels too. But maybe not so high, so I somewhat agree. And I would have loved one of the alternate designs for her rather than what we got. Now this would had been a badass look.
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Nah, they're not riding boots. Even if they were, Video Game Ciri isn't a rider, she's a runner. Running through swamps is, like, her main thing (though I guess so is tripping, so at least that makes sense).
 

weltalldx

Member
Feb 23, 2018
242
Proper sexualization is a thing now?

How about NO sexualization?

Can we have a game with a female protagonist that isn't focusing on showing skin or curves?

I don't understand why your moral world view get to override the world view others? Videogames have always been a microcosm of society, the amount of immoral or indecent content in society is just reflected in videogames nowadays. Indecent content is at a all time high thanks to the advent of the internet, and tremendous amount of lewd content are readily available on social media, websites, and just relaxed views on decency and norms in general. It appears to me that you want to deny the obvious fact that this is where society is and actively try to change society through videogames, which I think is a folly.

I fail to see how arguing that a videogame dress code is distasteful has any rational stance. As long as the game offer the option of a modest costume, why does it matter if a female character have a racy costume? DOA series has always offer conservative and modest costume options. I think it is very unfair that a vocal opinion get to completely subvert the preference of others simply due to a hypocritical justification and stance. What is more depressing is developers fearing backlash from this opinion and limiting their artistic vision to appease this group.
 

Joe2187

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,521
Stop that.

There is a HUGE difference between being sex-positive and being okay with the subjugation of women for male pleasure. The entire premise of the thread is undermined by the context in which it exists - that is to say, a world in which sexualization of women for male pleasure is the norm, not an exception and most certainly not done for any one woman's benefit the vast majority of the time. Trying to paint folks who are against this sort of thing as "puritanical" is beyond irritating. Just don't do it. Please.
I don't think it's possible to tout a sexy character "in charge of her own sexualization" when most (all?) of these are just designed by horny dudes.

These posts make it sound like a female sex positive character cant be designed by any straight male, which is just asinine. I hope that's not what you're saying.

Are there better examples for what the OP asks for? please show them I'd like to learn. I have only the perspective of a straight man, so what else am I supposed to say?
 
OP
OP
Fudgepuppy

Fudgepuppy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,270
Rise definitely has close up impalement in it. It's not as common but it's in there.

It's more the way the game focuses and tries to dramatically show the deaths, versus how something like Uncharted generally pulls back the camera and softens the blow. Outside of like horror games, Tomb Raider 2013 was pretty unusual in how visceral player deaths were presented, and combined with a female protagonist it didn't feel quite right.

How is this different from Resident Evil and Dead Space though?
 
Oct 28, 2017
848
A woman designing Bayonetta doesn't overshadow the male gazeyness of the games. Did the character designer make camera, was the clothes thing her idea?
But you see if you bothered to read the rest of my post her entire concept is supposed to be over the top badass, she's self-aware of her sexulization. Woman don't have an issue with it (that I've seen). It's actually an empowering image for woman, so sorry some men decide that a tiny bit of skin or a woman showing her sexually is unacceptable. *rolls eyes*
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
But you see if you bothered to read the rest of my post her entire concept is supposed to be over the top badass, she's self-aware of her sexulization. Woman don't have an issue with it (that I've seen). It's actually an empowering image for woman, so sorry some men decide that a tiny bit of skin or a woman showing her sexually is unacceptable. *rolls eyes*
Sigh.
Gonna use my nice words.

Fuck off. Don't twist my words or just make up shit. My thing was the male gazey camera.
 

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,447
Catherine is the only game that immediately came to mind.

Most games are on either extreme. None or rubbish about it.
 

neon/drifter

Shit Shoe Wasp Smasher
Member
Apr 3, 2018
4,062
Count me out too.

The premise is fraught with issues, not the least of which is the fact that it completely ignores the oppressive context in which this sexualization is pushed. It is, quite frankly, kind of impossible for sexualization to be "positive" in this environment without major changes to the way the game industry operates as a whole.
Wow. You speak for us both.

I was grappling with the reasoning but your words are exactly it. High five.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,722
Yeah something about long hair and using it in spells and power that probably sprang from leaving your hair down instead of putting it up not being considered modest a long time ago. Don't know if that was the intention with Bayonetta's hair suit (probably not) but it's not 100% out of nowhere, I guess.
If you go through the design notes, essentially literally everything on Bayonetta's design is taken straight from either Witchcraft lore, or feminine symbols in general, to include the association with the moon and the butterflies and all that stuff.
Fuck off. Don't twist my words or just make up shit. My thing was the male gazey camera.
The 'male gazey camera' that she enjoys just as much, if not more, than the supposed 'male gaze' in question?
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
But you see if you bothered to read the rest of my post her entire concept is supposed to be over the top badass, she's self-aware of her sexulization. Woman don't have an issue with it (that I've seen). It's actually an empowering image for woman, so sorry some men decide that a tiny bit of skin or a woman showing her sexually is unacceptable. *rolls eyes*

Some women do take issue with it, some do not. I personally have met more women who've liked it than don't, but I understand why some men and women don't like it, even though I disagree.
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
Right, but do you agree that female sexuality can also be empowering?
That a woman can be proud of her body and show some skin because it makes her feel good?
You are aware that women also purchase sexy lingerie for themselves right? Because THEY look good and not for their boyfriends/husbands?

I'm not sure any video games have women being subjugated or being depicted as nothing but sex objects
Bayonetta would be considered sexploitation in the genres of film. Which ya, isn't exactly a nice thing
Most games are made primarily by and for men though and treat female characters often as lesser than male characters not just as sex objects but as props to carry male characters' stories forward. An individual woman believing something (Bayonetta) is empowering does not make it empowering for all of us.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,810
Okay.

First, this is a thread about positive sexuality. What that means is, we have to be talking about something with at least some level of sexuality in it. So dismissing Bayonetta because it's chock full of sexuality is, inherently, pretty dumb. It's like saying 'what's the best car, by the way all four wheeled vehicles are disqualified'.
I really don't know where you got that from. I did not say the problem with Bayonetta was sexualization, you're just assuming that.

And, I mean, it's hard to not just reiterate what everyone else has said, but Bayonetta is, absolutely, positive sexuality, because she is, at no point, made a victim of it. Why does she get naked? Because she wants to! Because she enjoys doing it! Because she wants to show off! It's not, "because she breathes through her skin" or some other nonsense where 'she has to' or 'is forced to'. And no, she is not 'forced to' by her hair being her weapon, as, just like Jeanne, she has the choice available to wear regular, non-hair clothes and still fight and summon demons. She also isn't just blissfully unaware of what's going on.
Bayonetta is not a sentient being. All her choices are made by a team composed mostly by man. Specifically, the director of her game is a known perv (More on that later).
And yes, she is forced by her hair being a weapon and, for some reason, at the same time, her outfit. This is equivalent to female armor in RPGs being skimpy, having less coverage or having the precise shape of breasts despite this being ridiculous and making no sense. There's no reason for her outfit to be made of the same thing she uses to attack her enemies other than "Hey, she'll get naked using this power". Okay, the game provides other outfit choices, but I don't think Link's outfit is canon. Clearly, her default outfit is how the game is presented and, as such, is the intended design here.

In fact, let's compare Bayonetta to... pretty much any poorly sexualized character. *Usually* your typical pointlessly sexualized character is some random nobody, but now with giant tits and bikini armor that doesn't cover more than 20% of their body, and they in no way ever acknowledge that they are wearing bikini armor, or if it is ever acknowledge, it's done in a passing joke where the character gets flustered like "Oh no they see my butt, if only I could have just worn pants!"
Bayonetta is not only wearing a suit that covers the vast majority of her skin, has pretty regular sized breasts, and at no point is she made a joke of, either at the expense of her as a character or her sexuality or the way she dresses.
This isn't really true? Plenty of pointlessly sexualized characters are the protagonists of their games, or relevant characters, not random nobodies who know no better. Lara Croft, Kitana (and her equivalents), the entire female cast of Dead or Alive, Harley Quinn in Arkham Asylum, Tracer, some of the characters from Tekken, and even Samus got progressively sexualized and even got a skin-tight suit with heels (!). Bayonetta is no different here. There are all examples of toxic sexualization, even if they're not there to be made fun of. They're there for pandering.

Also, this is Bayonetta:

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Her body does not resemble the body of a regular woman. Sexualization does not only come in the shape of huge breasts.

Quiet, as an example, is a poorly sexualized character because there's a poor excuse for why she dresses the way she does, it doesn't even make sense *with* the reason she's dressed the way she does, and her personality does not acknowledge it at all or make sense with it. It's hastily thrown on her just to add tits for the sake of tits.

The camera does not exploit her, she uses it to enjoy herself. It's not sneakily trying to ogle her while she's unaware, she's winking at it and posing. Not much else to that, so I won't go any further.

Bayonetta at no point does what she does for the sake of any character's sexual satisfaction or arousal. She dances in the same manner, all the time, whether anyone is watching or not. She dances for one person: Herself.
Yes, Quiet is another example of terrible sexualization. Because they came up with excuses to justify something that was there to pander to the male gaze.
And, no, Bayonetta is never by herself. She's always being watched by at least one person: the player. Which is the target of all this pandering. Again, she's not a sentient being. Everything she does was a decision made by a team of men with their own satisfaction and the player's in mind. She's an object being exploited, and that automatically invalidades any intention of making her a "sex-positive" character. This is not what sex-positive means.

And I was gonna tackle the "Oh but Kamiya is a guy and said he wanted Bayonetta sexy so that nullifies everything else!" argument, but I'm short on time, so I'll summarize it: Bayonetta is meant to be a complete play off of Dante, who is himself a hyper masculine sexy bad attitude kind of guy, 2, Bayonetta was designed by Mari, a woman, according to what she would like, and 3, none of that fukken matters anyway because you don't exactly see dev interviews before you play the game. Bayonetta delivers a specific message -- Sexy is good, sexy is fun, be sexy for yourself and fuck everyone else. Who cares who 'wrote the message'.
A lot people care about who wrote the message, as that is heavily indicative of what is the intent of their message. And, hey, I'll have you know: women can reproduce sexism and objectification as well. They were raised in the same society as us. They're influenced by all of this systemic sexism as much as we are. So the claim that she was designed by a woman, therefore gets a pass, holds no weight.
Also, she did not create Bayonetta from scratch. She might have designed her, but the concept of the character was made by Kamiya, and she had to follow that.
The key difference here is that Dante's hyper masculinity is a power fantasy for men. And Bayonetta's hyper femininity is a sex fantasy also for men.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
And once again them camera angles are used to show her sexualization and it's supposed to be over the top, everything in the game is.
Why can't people just own the fact that they like looking at titties. I could respect that. It's the "no no, it's actually empowering, she's using her sexuality to defeat her enemies" that's eye rolling.

It's true of certain games, some mentioned, but you know goddamn well if someone not familiar with Bayonetta walked in a room and saw you playing, you'd be blushing and wouldn't even try that tired speech.

I don't know who you're trying to fool.

Bayonetta has a male gazey camera. It just does. I'm not insulting the game. Some people enjoy it, some people are put off by it, some don't care or see it as a bad thing. That's fine, just be honest.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,481
That's some of the most ridiculous stuff I've read. Such an argument could essentially be used to justify or hand waive any perversely or overtly sexualised female (or male) character in any game. I'm playing so and so character and it makes me feel sexy and empowered, so I don't care that she's tackily, immaturely and crassly sexualised, it makes me feel good!

Ultimately what that quote seemingly boils down to is whether the player feels comfortable with or likes the character they're playing or not, thus justifying the overt sexualiation, but you can like a character or feel they're sexy whilst simultaneously acknowledging the character is simply a tool for perverse (predominantly male) sexualiation fantasies masquerading under the guise of female empowerment. It's not like Kamiya is shy about that. He's one of the biggest pervs in the industry.

Thing is, all three articles are written by women - and I feel they are better judges than men here - and there are many more. Case in point:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/05/lara-croft-bayonetta-female-games

Sexuality and aggression
At first glance, it's easy to dismiss Bayonetta as just another male fantasy, another female character to be ogled and abused. But, in reality, the character is a power trip for and about women. Through her overt sexuality, her acceptance and love of her own body, Bayonetta makes the men in the game (and perhaps many of those playing) uncomfortable. During the story sequences, male agents of God become stuttering fools in her presence; she owns and shows off her body, she dances and straddles her foes; the camera often points upwards so that she is in effect thrusting her vagina into the face of the player.

...

Despite appearances, Bayonetta rarely panders to the imagined male audience. Yes, she's ridiculously proportioned and scantily clad for most of the game, but far from being an object, she is portrayed as having complete autonomy and control over her body and femininity.

...

Bayonetta presents us with a truly empowering woman who's unapologetically feminine, sexual and confident. Dismissed by many as an objectified fantasy, she is a woman without compromise who refuses to be ashamed of her body, who in one sequence giggles seductively as she grasps the pulsating heart of a heaven-sent deity and asks: "Do you want to touch me?"

I know there are counter-pieces as well, but that's the thing: these games inspire interesting think-pieces and debate and definitely struck a chord with many female gamers. A good friend of mine cosplays her for example.

That's definitely more than most games manage.
 

Wiggles

Member
Oct 28, 2017
492
Bayonetta was supposedly designed by a woman. She's sexualized yes - because a woman wanted it her to be so. Funny how the "support women!!" mantra gets dropped when they do something that doesn't fit the narrative.
 

Rixan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,401
Nothing jumps out at me

I would argue that some aspects or characters in Witcher 3 handle it well, but wouldn't feel comfortable blanket statementing for the entire game
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Bayonetta was supposedly designed by a woman. She's sexualized yes - because a woman wanted it her to be so. Funny how the "support women!!" mantra gets dropped when they do something that doesn't fit the narrative.
Yes. A designer designs a character with absolutely no input from anyone else. She designed Bayonetta and they built the game around her. That's actually what happened. Bayonetta was the designers idea and hers alone.

The game is fine for everything it does and it's fine if people like it, it's just a weak example for what the OP is asking for. No one is lamenting it's existence.
 

His Majesty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,171
Belgium
The Witcher 3 walks a dangerous line but walks it very well in my opinion.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/06/08/women-of-the-witcher-3/

Richard Cobbett said:
The Witcher III regularly shows the same nuanced view of respect – respecting its female characters not simply by making them badass, but by making them interesting. That's as much a question of flaws as anything else – fleshing everyone out by having, to pick one, Geralt's former lover Yennefer often losing her careful cool over Geralt's various trysts with Triss, yet also fully able to both work and scheme with both towards a greater good. It allows for Triss to simultaneously express relief that Geralt's restored memory won't let people manipulate him any more, and cheerily confess to having done so herself on many occasions. It allows for the Bloody Baron's wife and daughter to be important characters with their own stories, both before and after Geralt arrives, rather than simply becoming emotional props to tell his story. His daughter Tamara in particular isn't simply sitting around and waiting for a hero to show up and sort out her problems – she's recruited allies, she's prepared, she's in the middle of trying to make things right herself. She's also accepted the price for all this in a way that Geralt as a main character will never have to either consider or pay.

And the list goes on. The Witcher III has been getting a bit of flack recently for its all-white cast, and I'm not planning to get into that one here, but in terms of female representation it's genuinely refreshing. Women can be elected queens reigning in wisdom over a manly land. They can be spiteful villagers who will call a barmaid a cunt and repeatedly smash her head into the bar. And anything in the middle – villagers, sorceresses, poets, princesses. That's of course before we even get to Ciri, a princess who only needs protecting because the scale of the foes chasing her is enough to terrify even a coalition of the world's most badass people, and even so has a destiny involving something on a scale that leaves them so powerless, they're not even in the loop on it.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
Most games are made primarily by and for men though and treat female characters often as lesser than male characters not just as sex objects but as props to carry male characters' stories forward. An individual woman believing something (Bayonetta) is empowering does not make it empowering for all of us.

I'll give you the made BY men but FOR men? News to me
Lots of women love playing everything from Calla Doody to Sims

The problem there is the toxic fandoms that drive women away
Hell Overwatch may as well be advertised as FOR WOMEN based on the art/fans I have seen
 

Briarios

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,238
You can't really handle the sexualization of women properly because it's always a negative.

Just a quick wiki quote to drive home that point:According to the American Psychological Association, sexualization occurs when "individuals are regarded as sex objects and evaluated in terms of their physical characteristics and sexiness."

Regarding a woman as an object is just bad. Period.

So, I think we're having a semantic disconnect -- I don't think sexualization is really what the OP meant, so that's causing some of the debate to fire up.

Maybe the better question would be, what games model a woman's ownership of her sexual identity best? That would be a more positive query, in my opinion.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Bayonetta was supposedly designed by a woman. She's sexualized yes - because a woman wanted it her to be so. Funny how the "support women!!" mantra gets dropped when they do something that doesn't fit the narrative.

Funny how you seem to be determined to paint all those who have problems with a character as "you types"