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Yabab

Banned
Nov 24, 2017
97
São Paulo, Brazil
My definition of 'arrogant' doesn't include behavior that says "we don't know any better, so we'll wait and see". My definition is quite the opposite, actually.

Eurogamer seems the arrogant one with its "we know better" stance.
 

Chalfonts

Banned
Apr 3, 2018
530
why should valve arbitrate what we should and shouldn't be allowed to play?

a lot of people play disturbing games out of curiosity
 

708

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,358
Ever tried to get in touch with their support? Email only and good luck getting a reply in timely fashion if ever.
This is basically an old meme at this point.
32oeRLL.png
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
This is just pathetic.

At the very least most people don't put effort into hate speech so it'll be relegated to shovelware and asset flips, but that's because we have been living in a world with assumed responsibility on Valves part.

In reality though someone's eventually going to post something truly fucking horrendous on Steam, Valve will allow it, and then government regulators are gonna take notice.
If something is truly abhorrent and yet not yet illegal, then I am happy for regulators to take notice and change the laws so it BECOMES illegal.
Why are you making it sound like a bad thing for horrible things to be made illegal?

Regulators doing their jobs should be applauded. Laws should change to make them better. it's all good things.
 

Toxik

Banned
May 22, 2018
411
The idea that this will lead to a slippery slope of extremely offensive and hateful games is laughable. There's no market for that sort of thing. This is about people wanting to restrict games they don't like, from people they don't like, and I'm glad Valve isn't letting that happen.
This. Sad so many here support censorship.
 

Deleted member 4044

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,121
I think many people (myself included) are upset over Valve's "new" content policy because we have basically gifted Valve with the mantle of responsibility for PC gaming based on their contributions to the platform for the last fifteen years. Getting digital distribution off and running in a customer-friendly way, adding middleware that developers and customers like in Steamworks, and even working on an alternative to Windows and a comfy couch option have all been great additions.

The problem is, they never viewed themselves as inhabiting the role of PC gaming caretakers. That's perfectly reasonable given that they are their own company and that the PC platform is open, but a lot of people assumed they had implicitly accepted that position. This is why this news seems like such a shock to so many - it seems to be a total abdication of something that segments of the public have entrusted them with for over a decade.

I haven't had a great experience browsing Steam's store or going through my discovery queues in a while. Part of me thought that might just be my tastes changing (not really interested in Simulator type games) but I think part of it is just the amount of crap that ends up on the service. I think having a separate section for independent publishers would help a lot, or maybe something developers or publishers with over five years of experience end up in their own tab where people like me can quickly locate them.

For what its worth, I think the Steam client is one of the worst ones out there today for PC gaming. Battle.net has better social functionality for me with its party system and live streaming outputs (I realize the friend lists are regional, but I only play with NA people anyway). uPlay has developed into a fine client on its own and I buy all my Ubi Soft titles on there, since buying them on Steam launches uPlay anyway. Even Origin has better download speeds and gives a free game away every month. I don't use a Steam Controller or Big Picture, so those features don't really matter to me.

edit: I also see a lot of arguments like, "Why should Valve dictate what we can and cannot play?" This isn't about that. If Steam doesn't let a game onto their store, you could still download that game from the developer or publisher directly, or any other storefront they can get onto. Valve is not the end-all, be-all client and storefront for the PC, despite many people refusing to buy any game that is not on it.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
The front page certainly is curated, but from my understanding of Valve's statement, they want more games to have a chance to be seen. Which I'm all for, but there's only so many games that can fit on screen at once. So they want curators to recommend more games. They hinted at long term changes to the storefront, so I'd imagine to try to promote curators more while doing their own curation less. I was relatively okay with Steam as it was right now, but if they do follow through with this idea that curation should be done by others, I just don't see how so many people could be on board with doing more work

Well, not everyone has same taste, so being able to choose who you get recommendation is good.
Though there are these game spammers, releasing "games" like each day,
that probably are doing it for quick few bucks that shouldn't really be on Steam.

Totally agree. Steam really helped the OC gaming community back in the day, but now it's all about profiting from their dominant position. Valve's only goal is to make as much money as possible putting the least effort as possible. Despite being the biggest digital distribution platform they can't even be bothered to offer even the bare minimum customer support. Ever tried to get in touch with their support? Email only and good luck getting a reply in timely fashion if ever. That's just an example of how much they care about offering a good quality experience for their customers.

Steam's customer support is fine nowadays on my experience. Haven't had reply to take more than 24h. (and fastest reply in just ~15min!)
Though I have limited experience because I haven't even had any need to contact, which is imo good thing.

The way I see it, Steam just needs to offer the following:

  • A fully customisable, working content filter for specific genres based on idiosyncratic user demands (for example: no anime/visual novels, no battle royale, no sims, etc...)
  • Full parental control, blocking access to games with violence, nudity etc.. I wouldn't even mind if this was enabled by default and accounts needed to opt-in to adult content.
  • An option to filter games based on user ratings (do not display games lower than Positive, etc..)
  • Only allow games that are legal in the country you login from.
Now from what I understand, apart from the first bullet point, all these options are pretty much in Steam anyway. It just needs some refinement and perhaps a GUI overhaul to make things easier for users to control.

Beyond that, as I've mentioned before, I don't want Valve taking on a curation role. Letting other users do that was always a smart thing and lets communities grow organically and recommend games to people who actually want them. Outright banning of titles based on something so flimsy as personal morality codes is something I will never accept and I'm glad Valve decided against it.

And that's what they seem to be doing. Though remains to see how exactly it will work.
 

Mindwipe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,202
London
I was replying to someone who said that a deregulated store would be more progressive. This seems very unlikely to me.

It's inevitable.

Regulation has a long history of only hurting minorities. Most of the major civil rights wins in history have come as a direct consequence of technical advancement meaning the old gatekeepers lost their ability to reinforce a narrative demonising a minority group.

Regulating platforms has a long track record of not hurting the far right but hurting minorities. When Twitter started doing more censorship last year did they ban Trump? No, of course not, because power structures mean a "news" service would be literally insane to ban the President. But they codified up some rules and - what a surprise! - the people who got banned weren't the nazis but black women who . Twitter set up a shadowban network and *gasp* under political pressure from things like Operation Chokepoint and the British government the people hit turned out to be sex workers and not abusive idiots. America's internet companies (other than ISPs fought tooth and nail for Net Neutrality, but turned over and had their tummies ticked for FOSTA.

Apple's walled garden doesn't actually stop shitty content - gambling simulators targetting pre-schoolers and copyright infringing shovelware are rampant, but it's excellent at shutting out anything for smaller sexual minorities or sexual health education.

"Curation" is always anti-progressive.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're asking, but I'm going to try to answer. It's the same thing with retail stores of any sort. They want to sell you as much as possible, so they put items on display to attract attention. It's not really the customer's job to sell themselves on a product. The store has to decide where to put things and what things to put so that way it maximizes sales and customer happiness. And if Valve decides to push that responsibility onto others (like YouTube influencers or curators) it's opening up a huge can of worms. It's like if a Blockbuster Video decided to dump every movie on floor and tell customers to tell each other what's worth looking at. It's well within their rights to do it, but I don't know why anyone would be cool with having to put that much more work in

It was more that the question "with so many options how can someone find what they're looking for, or trust them not to be a shill" already exists on Youtube.
People manage to find the YTers who align with their tastes and interests.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
If something is truly abhorrent and yet not yet illegal, then I am happy for regulators to take notice and change the laws so it BECOMES illegal.
Why are you making it sound like a bad thing for horrible things to be made illegal?

Regulators doing their jobs should be applauded. Laws should change to make them better. it's all good things.

Did you misread my post, or are you pretending to misunderstand? What are you actually talking about? How did my post even slightly sound like that was the point I was making?

You do not want companies giving regulators a reason to step in. If you think that the anime games getting taken off Steam was bad wait till some EU or US government body takes over from the ESRB.
 

aerozombie

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,075
As more and more companies are morality policing their stores products, the brave thing is to keep the marketplace open. While I'd prefer some curation, this stance is far from cowardly.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
For what its worth, I think the Steam client is one of the worst ones out there today for PC gaming.

You seem to forget the existence of the Windows Store? :p

Steam has many more advantages than the ones you listed. Afaik, Steam is the ONLY storefront that:

- allows devs to generate free game keys, to sell on their own website or in competing 3rd party keystores. For games sold outside Steam, devs don't have to pay valve anything!
- actively supports mods
- allows the integration of other/competing ecosystems
- is available on every popular OS
- helps you to find the games you may like with curators, personalized store page, discovery queue etc
- doesn't have mandatory policies about DRM
- has fully automated "no questions asked" refunds for EVERY game
- supports themes to change the look and feel of the cliënt
- offers features like overlay that works for every game, also when it isn't bought on Steam

I use almost every PC gaming client out there, and Steam really isn't the worst of them imo. On the contrary.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
Did you misread my post, or are you pretending to misunderstand? What are you actually talking about? How did my post even slightly sound like that was the point I was making?

You do not want companies giving regulators a reason to step in. If you think that the anime games getting taken off Steam was bad wait till some EU or US government body takes over from the ESRB.
You are ANOTHER person who completely ignored Valve saying they will obey local laws.
Valve will take down any game that breaks laws. If a game is as horrible as you claim and yet there is no law against it, then there SHOULD be a law made against it.
It has nothing to do with the ESRB. It has nothing to do with adult ratings. It has 100% to do with what is legal and illegal. If there is a gap in your law that allow a game that is truly evil to exist, then the issue is your law and not Valve. There are laws against hate speech, laws that censor things, laws that might even be unjustified or not even right. But the laws are what a population use to determine what can or cannot be done. And if there is a serious gap then it is high time it is filled. And it should be done by the law, rather than a private company.
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
User Banned (1 Week): Inflammatory accusations, long history of infractions.
One big reason why I don't PC game often is because it requires Steam the majority of the time, and I don't want to support their alt-right sympathetic asses.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
You are ANOTHER person who completely ignored Valve saying they will obey local laws.
Valve will take down any game that breaks laws. If a game is as horrible as you claim and yet there is no law against it, then there SHOULD be a law made against it.
It has nothing to do with the ESRB. It has nothing to do with adult ratings. It has 100% to do with what is legal and illegal. If there is a gap in your law that allow a game that is truly evil to exist, then the issue is your law and not Valve. There are laws against hate speech, laws that censor things, laws that might even be unjustified or not even right. But the laws are what a population use to determine what can or cannot be done. And if there is a serious gap then it is high time it is filled. And it should be done by the law, rather than a private company.

Genuine question: How old are you?

I didn't ignore anything. I said that the reality is that when Valve starts allowing shit that the goverment finds objectionable, that which was barely legal before will quickly soon become very illegal. And everything else will get caught in the crossfire.

And that's not how laws work. The government determines what is objectionable, and then enshrines that into law. Often that decision is driven by public demand and opinion.

I'm trying to help you understand here so consider lootboxes. Not illegal before, are in certain countries now. Why? Because they weren't being regulated and lines were crossed. Regulators and authorities took notice.
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,924
Really don't get the outrage and hot takes over this tbh.

I thought people would be happy with an open market? They said they'll remove hateful games and the like, so whats the problem?
 

Deleted member 862

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,646
That is a really good article in the op. Credit to Oli Welsh for not holding back because it needed to be said.

I think it's going to be interesting to see what Steam looks like in a year or two and what sort of community will exist around it. I don't think they can undo this now and they're going to have to live with that.

I think the next phase of this is if things get so bad do the more reputable publishers start looking elsewhere because they don't want their games next to a bunch of school shooting simulators and sex games.
 

Launchpad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,156
but, for indies, its almost mandatory to be released on Switch, since a lot of them are having amazing success on the platform.
Just because it gets on the Switch doesn't mean it will do well. For every game blasting the charts there's like 10 games that didn't. Nintendo release like a dozen games a week on the eShop.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,595
I swear people just have an agenda every Valve thread you see the same nonsense.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Actually, no it's not.

Valve specifically said they will crack down on "trolling" games.

They specifically said "To be explicit about that - if we allow your game onto the Store, it does not mean we approve or agree with anything you're trying to say with it. If you're a developer of offensive games, this isn't us siding with you against all the people you're offending. There will be people throughout the Steam community who hate your games, and hope you fail to find an audience, and there will be people here at Valve who feel exactly the same way. However, offending someone shouldn't take away your game's voice. We believe you should be able to express yourself like everyone else, and to find others who want to play your game. "
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,924
They specifically said "To be explicit about that - if we allow your game onto the Store, it does not mean we approve or agree with anything you're trying to say with it. If you're a developer of offensive games, this isn't us siding with you against all the people you're offending. There will be people throughout the Steam community who hate your games, and hope you fail to find an audience, and there will be people here at Valve who feel exactly the same way. However, offending someone shouldn't take away your game's voice. We believe you should be able to express yourself like everyone else, and to find others who want to play your game. "
So the offensive games they removed today, that was what? A glitch?
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,354
I don't even care what gets published on steam or not, but I do care about how does the store look to me as a customer. Whatever they did, it's not working for me. Sometimes I can't even stand just looking at their front page.

They have to find a way to address this, because the experience (to me) feels like the cheapest and worst possible one today. It's basically digging through trash.

And yes, I know about curators and all that.

Ok, show us your front page, sorry if you "can't stand it", but take one for the team and show us this abhorrent front page.
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
A company as big as Valve has a social responsibility to deplatform the alt-right. Buy not doing so (not just talking about games, but Steam communities and shit too) they tacitly support them.

I can report a racist (even veiled racist) Community page on the PS4 and Sony will remove it within a few hours.
 

Deleted member 4044

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,121
You seem to forget the existence of the Windows Store? :p

Steam has many more advantages than the ones you listed. Afaik, Steam is the ONLY storefront that:

- allows devs to generate free game keys, to sell on their own website or in competing 3rd party keystores. For games sold outside Steam, devs don't have to pay valve anything!
- actively supports mods
- allows the integration of other/competing ecosystems
- is available on every popular OS
- helps you to find the games you may like with curators, personalized store page, discovery queue etc
- doesn't have mandatory policies about DRM
- has fully automated "no questions asked" refunds for EVERY game
- supports themes to change the look and feel of the cliënt
- offers features like overlay that works for every game, also when it isn't bought on Steam

I use almost every PC gaming client out there, and Steam really isn't the worst of them imo. On the contrary.

I care about very little of this. What I do care about is good party chat, a browsable storefront, and built in streaming features. I realize some people like these features but the client is stagnant from my perspective.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,081
China
They specifically said "To be explicit about that - if we allow your game onto the Store, it does not mean we approve or agree with anything you're trying to say with it. If you're a developer of offensive games, this isn't us siding with you against all the people you're offending. There will be people throughout the Steam community who hate your games, and hope you fail to find an audience, and there will be people here at Valve who feel exactly the same way. However, offending someone shouldn't take away your game's voice. We believe you should be able to express yourself like everyone else, and to find others who want to play your game. "

it doesnt say anything about "hateful" games or racist games or stuff like that. Just that there might be games that people find offensive.
And knowing Era that could just be anime-games e.g.

Lets say I make a FPS with a german viewpoint. It can tell how german soldiers in WW2 were organized, how they felt, how they were pressured to do the things they did and "humanizes" them. This game might be offensive to someone, it isnt a hateful game though.

That said, if there is a clear cut law against hate speech towards LGBT folks in particular, STEAM should conduct that small bit of curation and remove the game prior to any complaints.

My stance on that.
 

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
Here is my honest to god opinion on this:

Let's say someone releases a game on steam called, "Kill the Gays" or some such
Now both the name and content of the game is visibly hate speech
Now Steam themselves shouldn't take any action UNTIL an LGBT rights group or LGBT folks in general raise an issue with it
Once such an issue is raised, THEN Steam would review it, contact the devs to change the content and if they are unwilling/unable, STEAM should simply unlist the game
If any laws have been broken then it would be the responsibility of the person/group that raised the issue to file a complaint with the police and then it's a legal issue

That said, if there is a clear cut law against hate speech towards LGBT folks in particular, STEAM should conduct that small bit of curation and remove the game prior to any complaints. I believe the issue is that they are NOT doing the above and taking a very "whatever" attitude to the kind of stuff that gets posted.

The issue is that if say some "sexy" game offends say a conservative Christian mother, should it ALSO be removed?

I suppose the argument would be that if I get banned for hateful comments on a forum; why doesn't the same happen for a hateful game being sold on a market?