Kelly Marie Tran has deleted her Instagram posts due harassment she has received after TLJ (Read OP)

stupei · Jun 5, 2018

Kinthey said:
Couldn't the same be said about posts that even are on topic? Like, no ones opinion about Black Panthers box office matters either

I mean, if you want to take it far enough, most things you do in life are meaningless. But since we've all agreed to spend some of our time on a forum, part of the also agreed upon social contract is that you discuss the topic of a thread. Some people, however, consider their extraneous and tangential opinions so valuable and necessary that they must be shared in a thread that isn't really about that. I would say the ego required to think your opinion or taste is somehow required and helpful context to understand something as complex as "harassment is bad" or "wow, that sure is a successful box office" is more conceited than engaging in the standard social mores.

Again, we could be talking about how harassment functions on the internet, but mostly people are talking about how they felt about a movie and then saying that adds context. What context? What value? It doesn't change their opinion or behavior. It's just extraneous information. People just want to use anecdotal details to make their post feel like it adds more. It doesn't, though.

TreadTalks said:
I don't see a clear division between box office and quality as topics for discussion. One easily bleeds into the other.

I also can't see it as conceitedness. In the context of a discussion forum, folks are invited and encouraged to share their perspectives and to put thought into what they're saying (i.e. to believe that their opinion or perspective matters). To then call them conceited feels at odds with what a discussion forum asks of you.

I would love more posts in this thread to be people sharing their perspective on harassment faced by women of color in nerd spaces and not their perspective on a movie that has been discussed to death.

Plum · Jun 5, 2018

I will never understand people who think an actor/actress, especially one as relatively 'non famous' as Tran, is in any way related to their character outside of being paid to play them in a film. Of course, I'm not naive enough to believe that this is the only reason (in fact, I'd say it's a very small reason), but it baffles me nonetheless. Just sickening all around, really.

Squall5042 said:
This is why I stay the fuck away from Star Wars threads on here. There is so much toxicity towards these movies even on here.

Lets not start implying that people who don't like the film are anywhere like the people harassing Kelly Marie Tran, because that's definitely what you're implying here. All it does is devalue the actual disgusting behaviour by putting it on the same level of 'disgusting' as simply having an opinion you feel somewhat strongly about.

UltraMagnus · Jun 5, 2018

Cap G said:
It doesnt happen to this degree because Star Trek is less popular.

Just as one example, you realize people flipped their shit when Micheal Burnham was confirmed the lead character of Discovery, right? You probably didnt hear about it because comparatively fewer people care about Trek that much (and even less watched Discovery :^) lol) but it was very much there.

Same when Abrams Trek happened, people thought it was the grandest insult that the universe got reset.

You just didnt hear about it because you aren't involved in those communities. It's impossible to not be involved in the Star Wars community to some extent due to the sheer overwhelming popularity and wide reach of the brand.

I am part of the Trek fanbase and like both ... my opinion is Star Wars is worse.

The first Abrams film was wildly well received by most people and even those that didn't like it could generally see the damn point was to engage a wider audience and accepted it on that basis. The second one wasn't as well received but largely the fan base is over it.

Trek already had a lead female captain, hell arguably Voyager was a show where the two main characters were both female after Seven of Nine was added, so no, most Star Trek fans really did not bat an eye lash at that as it's more of "yeah ... so?".

Marvel has a huge fan base too. Did people lose their shit as much when Age of Ultron was widely considered a bit of a let down after the first Avengers? Nope. What about Thor 2 being crap? Talk of boycotts or mass threats against Natalie Portman? Nope. Iron Man 2 & 3 both were kinda crap.

You think Peter Jackson gets anywhere the same flak that Rian Johnson or George Lucas get? I doubt it. Hobbit trilogy was fairly poor.

uncelestial · Jun 5, 2018

Bronx-Man said:

TFW you like a tweet, click on the profile, and find the guy who is dating your ex. Weird. More power to Sean though, I'm happily married.

Shadow-Link · Jun 5, 2018

stupei said:
But nobody cares that they didn't like the movie in a thread that's about its box office and not its quality. People just assume their persona and opinion on a forum is so valuable that it has to be clarified, least someone remember you and think something incorrect about your taste.

If a movie is doing poorly at the box office, we have to discuss the reasons for that and they are related to the quality of the movie. Same goes if it's doing well.

Everyone has the right to voice their opinion while being respectful.

Dice · Jun 5, 2018

I'd rather message the hair stylist who thought this was a good hairdo for her. Not to harass them, of course, but just to ask 'what the hell'

Deleted member 19844 · Jun 5, 2018

stupei said:
I would love more posts in this thread to be people sharing their perspective on harassment faced by women of color in nerd spaces and not their perspective on a movie that has been discussed to death.

I think it really has to do with the vantage point and experience from which they are entering into the conversation. For me, for example, my immediate reaction is exactly that of, "I didn't like the character, but that is no justification for this kind of harassment." I haven't personally experienced this kind of harassment, I don't know anyone personally who has, and I'm not into any nerd spaces to comment on what I've experienced there, so all I'm left with is my experience with the character and my condemnation of what she's going through. I wager that that is where many people are coming from. The good thing is that they too are rightfully coming out against what is being done to her.

flkRaven · Jun 5, 2018

Why are people so mean? I know the internet's anonymity emboldens these individuals, but what do they get from being mean in the first place?

Freddy=Legend · Jun 5, 2018

Squall5042 said:
This is why I stay the fuck away from Star Wars threads on here. There is so much toxicity towards these movies even on here.

You and me both. It's the one franchise that honestly cannot be debated in a civil or polite manner. Mind blowing how antagonistic some can get if someone likes a movie they didn't or hates one they did. Like, there are 11 movies & 2 TV shows so far, obviously people will have varying opinions. Why get so nasty about it.

Gotdatmoney · Jun 5, 2018

stupei said:
I mean, if you want to take it far enough, most things you do in life are meaningless. But since we've all agreed to spend some of our time on a forum, part of the also agreed upon social contract is that you discuss the topic of a thread.

Unless you are going to report everyone and let the mods decide to ban and not ban no one needs you to provide this service. Seriously. None of those posts whether you agree or not are off topic.

Anyway, people that go on social media and harass actors over stupid fantasy movies are sad individuals. Get the fuck over yourself. It's a movie.

New Fang · Jun 5, 2018

Has she actually said this is why she deleted her Instagram?

Salmonax · Jun 5, 2018

TreadTalks said:
I don't think you're interpreting it correctly. They are saying that not liking the character is no excuse for the harrassment. And they are showing themselves as an example of someone who doesn't like the character but who is correctly refraining from being an idiot / terrible person about it. It's not irrelevant because it shows that the harrasser's actions are so far beyond what is acceptable that even those who might agree with their opinion of the movie are opposed to what they are doing.

And yet the result of that combined context is yet another TLJ pile-on. I guess it's just disappointing and/or ironic given this thread's focus on Star Wars fans being unable to control themselves.

Deleted member 19844 · Jun 5, 2018

Salmonax said:
And yet the result of that combined context is yet another TLJ pile-on. I guess it's just disappointing and/or ironic given this thread's focus on Star Wars fans being unable to control themselves.

People who don't like something are generally more vocal about it than those that aren't, right? A person with a positive experience with a company will tell a few people, while someone with a bad experience will tell everyone and their mom...

More specifically though this thread is about Kelly Marie Tran being harassed. I don't think those expressing their distaste are having to control some urge to harass KMT.

honest_ry · Jun 5, 2018

Fuck anyone that harrasses a person because their beloved kids movie didn't fulfill their lofty ideals.

Fucking nerd scum.

Deleted member 31817 · Jun 5, 2018

Dice said:
I'd rather message the hair stylist who thought this was a good hairdo for her. Not to harass them, of course, but just to ask 'what the hell'

I like it

stupei · Jun 5, 2018

Gotdatmoney said:
Unless you are going to report everyone and let the mods decide to ban and not ban no one needs you to provide this service. Seriously. None of those posts whether you agree or not are off topic.

Anyway, people that go on social media and harass actors over stupid fantasy movies are sad individuals. Get the fuck over yourself. It's a movie.

I didn't say they were ban worthy. I said they were rude and insensitive, which they are. I'm not providing a service, I'm engaging in the discussion, even if you don't like my form of engagement just as much as I dislike the approach of many here.

Nobody should feel like they have to provide the context of their thoughts on a movie before saying harassment is bad. Harassment is bad is a thing people should feel confident in saying as a complete sentence. Nobody cares what you thought of a movie. I have not shared my own thoughts on the movie, because they have nothing to do with Kelly Marie Tran's experiences online and pretending that people care what I think about TLJ instead of talking about what happened to KMT would be pretty insensitive to the harassment, some very racist and sexist in nature, that she has experienced for months now.

TreadTalks said:
I think it really has to do with the vantage point and experience from which they are entering into the conversation. For me, for example, my immediate reaction is exactly that of, "I didn't like the character, but that is no justification for this kind of harassment." I haven't personally experienced this kind of harassment, I don't know anyone personally who has, and I'm not into any nerd spaces to comment on what I've experienced there, so all I'm left with is my experience with the character and my condemnation of what she's going through. I wager that that is where many people are coming from. The good thing is that they too are rightfully coming out against what is being done to her.

Couldn't you just say "there is no justification for this kind of harassment"? What knowledge do we gain from knowing you didn't like the character? Because I can promise you that in the thousand posts already made in this thread, the possibility that someone can dislike a character and not harass the performer is very, very well covered ground. It is firmly established. It would be like saying, "You know the sky was really blue when I looked outside just now, but there is no justification for this kind of harassment." While this might be an accurate part of your reality, it doesn't really advance the topic in any way. (Obviously there is some difference between bringing up the sky and talking about the movie, but I was going for something inarguably true that similarly does not alter the second half of the statement as it is also inarguably true.)

Darknight · Jun 5, 2018

UltraMagnus said:
Is Kate Mulgrew being harassed on social media because Voyager wasn't great in the eyes of a lot of people?

I think if the Internet and social media existed back when Voyager came out like it does today, she would have been harassed given that the show wasn't well liked she was the first female captain that a Star Trek show was based around.

Deleted member 19844 · Jun 5, 2018

stupei said:
Couldn't you just say "there is no justification for this kind of harassment"? What knowledge do we gain from knowing you didn't like the character? Because I can promise you that in the thousand posts already made in this thread, the possibility that someone can dislike a character and not harass the performer is very, very well covered ground. It is firmly established. It would be like saying, "You know the sky was really blue when I looked outside just now, but there is no justification for this kind of harassment." While this might be an accurate part of your reality, it doesn't really advance the topic in any way. (Obviously there is some difference between bringing up the sky and talking about the movie, but I was going for something inarguably true that similarly does not alter the second half of the statement as it is also inarguably true.)

But by that way of thinking about it, why would anyone comment at all in the scenario you describe? The fact that there is no justification for that kind of harassment is also very, very well covered ground. It's firmly established.

UltraMagnus · Jun 5, 2018

Darknight said:
I think if the Internet and social media existed back when Voyager came out like it does today, she would have been harassed given that the show wasn't well liked she was the first female captain that a Star Trek show was based around.

I think the big difference in the fan bases is Trek fans can accept when they don't like certain things without spazzing out about it. Trek has been all over the map right from the inception, the first movie was a very different tone from the TV, TNG initially was something the fan base was arguably split on, DS9 is very different. The fan base understands how to take a deep breath and relax when something isn't perfect or even good.

Star Wars fans though, I think there is firstly a certain arrogance to begin with that Star Wars is some kind of holy, sacred thing that they put on some ridiculous pedestal. And then when things don't go how they want, it's full melt down mode.

Star Wars fans have problems accepting things when they're not done exactly how they think they should and yes IMO that is very specific to that fandom.

Again also see Marvel ... no one cares if a Thor movie or an Iron Man is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. The kid from Iron Man 3 probably didn't get any death threats even though that movie is lame.

Gotdatmoney · Jun 5, 2018

stupei said:
I didn't say they were ban worthy. I said they were rude and insensitive, which they are. I'm not providing a service, I'm engaging in the discussion, even if you don't like my form of engagement just as much as I dislike the approach of many here.

When you start talking about posting on a board is a social contract to talk about the topic at hand you're trying to control the tone of the thread. We don't need flowery language, that's what you're doing.

Nobody should feel like they have to provide the context of their thoughts on a movie before saying harassment is bad.

Its a discussion about how a person in a movie was harassed by a portion of that franchises. The literal topic at hand is going to make people comment on that character but last time I checked every comment is basically, "who gives a fuck about whether you dont like the movie or the character, you cant treat people like that". It's entirely a valid comment.

Harassment is bad is a thing people should feel confident in saying as a complete sentence. Nobody cares what you thought of a movie.

You're not a mod, you dont get to decide what is a valid thought to share and what isn't. So really, not trying to hear you on this point. There is more than one way to have a discussion. You dont get to define it.

Azzanadra · Jun 5, 2018

All this fanboyism and gatekeeping and harassment, for such a mediocre film franchise at that.

Star Wars is and always has been garbage in its film form, and somehow the fans who uphold it are even worse.

PeskyToaster · Jun 5, 2018

There's obviously a racist/misogynistic undercurrent to a lot of the criticism of the new Star Wars movies. It's been an "excitable" fanbase for a while but it seems to have a nasty edge now because a woman is in charge and the movies are being led by women and feature them prominently. Nobody chasin after Peter Jackson despite the Hobbit being real bad.

stupei · Jun 5, 2018

TreadTalks said:
But by that way of thinking about it, why would anyone comment at all in the scenario you describe? The fact that there is no justification for that kind of harassment is also very, very well covered ground. It's firmly established.

I guess I had hoped the conversation could evolve past the basics at some point.

Like I think it's worth talking about how the rising cost of productions across all entertainment mediums has increasingly eroded the barriers between creators and fans in a way that's incredibly dangerous. Movies and TV shows are expensive and jobs are easily ended based on bad fan response so there is an increasing push toward fan engagement. Fans are told they matter more than anything, that their vision is the most valid, and catered to by marketing in a way that sets up expectations that can never actually be met by the source material. Almost inevitably, there is disappointment when it turns out your vision was not actually the priority. (General you, obviously.) You see it a lot especially with shipping culture and in serialized programming where it feels like networks could end the story at any moment, so they pander to people they have no intention of satisfying in order to increase the hysteria.

The hysteria is deliberate, and the consequences are massive. This isn't to say that people aren't responsible for their own awful behavior. Obviously they are. But there is a degree to which some people have come to understand their importance as fans that can never align with reality and for some the response is incredibly aggressive. It's always the actors who are at the front lines of that response, and very often it's the women and people of color who take the brunt of the backlash.

Social media is a pandora's box that marketing departments cannot close again.

ManaByte · Jun 5, 2018

uncelestial · Jun 5, 2018

stupei said:
I didn't say they were ban worthy. I said they were rude and insensitive, which they are. I'm not providing a service, I'm engaging in the discussion, even if you don't like my form of engagement just as much as I dislike the approach of many here.

Nobody should feel like they have to provide the context of their thoughts on a movie before saying harassment is bad. Harassment is bad is a thing people should feel confident in saying as a complete sentence. Nobody cares what you thought of a movie. I have not shared my own thoughts on the movie, because they have nothing to do with Kelly Marie Tran's experiences online and pretending that people care what I think about TLJ instead of talking about what happened to KMT would be pretty insensitive to the harassment, some very racist and sexist in nature, that she has experienced for months now.

Couldn't you just say "there is no justification for this kind of harassment"? What knowledge do we gain from knowing you didn't like the character? Because I can promise you that in the thousand posts already made in this thread, the possibility that someone can dislike a character and not harass the performer is very, very well covered ground. It is firmly established. It would be like saying, "You know the sky was really blue when I looked outside just now, but there is no justification for this kind of harassment." While this might be an accurate part of your reality, it doesn't really advance the topic in any way. (Obviously there is some difference between bringing up the sky and talking about the movie, but I was going for something inarguably true that similarly does not alter the second half of the statement as it is also inarguably true.)

Honestly, complaining that people are commenting on the broader phenomenon at work here (shitty fans transferring their frustration with a character onto an actor) is kind of thread whining, and the attempts to police people into only repeating the sentiment "harassment is terrible" is starting to be a very tiresome thread derail. If people are showing empathy for KMT and holding her blameless, and posting respectfully, they should be able to contextualize their thoughts around the situation any way they like.

Also, the "well covered ground" argument makes no sense because "harassment is bad" is also well-covered ground.

In fact, fan reaction to the content is a very interesting thread of discussion because women of color who are being targeted for daring to show up in geek franchises is a large and troublesome topic; see: Leslie Jones' harassment after Ghostbusters (2016). Being able to talk about the work being done by these performers, the context the work is happening in, and the patterns of behavior that drive harassers is a lot more on-topic than you're making it out to be, and saying "nobody cares what you thought of a movie" is a pretty jerky thing to say in general.

In the old place, they even banned threads where the only possible avenue of discussion was lamenting how terrible a situation was, and I appreciated that. Trying to force the opposite situation -- i.e. ONLY talking about how terrible a situation was -- is not conducive to a good discussion that explores what's going on.

Smelck · Jun 5, 2018

Any harrasment like this is abhorent.

Lumping a group of people together and blaming them as a collective is equally abhorent.

greatgeek · Jun 5, 2018

PeskyToaster said:
There's obviously a racist/misogynistic undercurrent to a lot of the criticism of the new Star Wars movies. It's been an "excitable" fanbase for a while but it seems to have a nasty edge now because a woman is in charge and the movies are being led by women and feature them prominently. Nobody chasin after Peter Jackson despite the Hobbit being real bad.

I wonder if Evangeline Lilly got much hate since some of the more disliked aspects of the Hobbit movies involved Tauriel.

Trojita · Jun 5, 2018

Dice said:
I'd rather message the hair stylist who thought this was a good hairdo for her. Not to harass them, of course, but just to ask 'what the hell'

She's a maintenance worker on the ship, not a model.

SpookyLettuce · Jun 5, 2018

Let's say I made a piece of artwork and hung it up in an exhibit, and people come to look at it and come away with their own opinions about it. I also have a Twitter account where I post miscellaneous stuff about my life. A few people who REALLY didn't like the artwork decide to inundate my Twitter with extremely hateful comments. The negativity gets to a point where I decide to ignore/put the comments out of sight. Other people find out about this and feel bad that the negativity got me down, and I overhear them remarking to their friends, "You know, I thought their art was trash too, but I wouldn't leave comments like that. It's totally not cool".

Like, how is this an acceptable form of support? Great, thanks for that weird, backwards expression of sympathy that sounds like a semi springboard for you to share your negative opinion. That makes me feel loads better.

Again, the sentiment behind these comments is GOOD – that an opinion of someone's work is absolutely no reason to harass the actual person. But your actual opinion of the work in question is irrelevant to the fact that harassment = shitty, so why bring it up except to restate your opinion needlessly or to try to distance yourself from the harassers who share the same opinion as you?

Back to Kelly and the social media problem as a whole. I wonder if actors are completely unfiltered when it comes to Twitter and whatnot, or if they've got people to look over stuff for them. I guess the healthiest thing is to just avoid it entirely, but that's such a bummer.

Mcfrank · Jun 5, 2018

I dont think it would be possible for me to love and respect Rian Johnson more than I do for the incredibly positive attitude he keeps through all of this horse shit. He is an inspiration.

CenaToon · Jun 5, 2018

At this point star-wars fans are just like Football fans when they hate a player on their team.

Arc · Jun 5, 2018

At this point I hope Rian's trilogy is all minority women just to piss off the horrible incel Star Wars fandom

UltraMagnus · Jun 5, 2018

Smelck said:
Any harrasment like this is abhorent.

Lumping a group of people together and blaming them as a collective is equally abhorent.

Maybe it is time for the Star Wars fanbase to do some soul searching.

When one fanbase's behavior is getting notably worse than other comparable ones (Marvel, Thrones, Trek, Tolkien, Potter, etc.) I think maybe some reflection needs to be had.

Everybody Lies · Jun 5, 2018

Salmonax said:
It is stunning how many in this thread seem to be unable to keep their opinion on TLJ out of it. Like, that's completely irrelevant and even inches toward empathy for the attackers. ("I see where they're coming from, BUUUUT....")

How does that apply to me in any way given the quote in its full context?

Salmonax · Jun 5, 2018

Everybody Lies said:
How does that apply to me in any way given the quote in its full context?

Sorry, thought you mentioned hating the movie in your post. Maybe I was confused.

Randam · Jun 5, 2018

Surfinn said:
That's not my point. My point is that people coming in and digging up their hot takes about how much they hate her character in a thread about Tran being harassed off of the internet is completely unnecessary and inappropriate.

And I don't think they mention it just to let people know.

Smelck · Jun 5, 2018

UltraMagnus said:
Maybe it is time for the Star Wars fanbase to do some soul searching.

When one fanbase's behavior is getting notably worse than other comparable ones (Marvel, Thrones, Trek, Tolkien, Potter, etc.) I think maybe some reflection needs to be had.

As a fan of SWs, Im on a forum calling those responsible abhorent....If I met someone responsible, Id also call them out.

Im not going tolabel the entire fanbase as some are doing, but as you say I would encourage others to take the same stance.

I personally have nothing I need to quietly reflect on.

Einchy · Jun 5, 2018

That guy got shit on so hard he went to Ian Miles Cheong to get some back up. lol

Khanimus · Jun 5, 2018

Smelck said:
Any harrasment like this is abhorent.

Lumping a group of people together and blaming them as a collective is equally abhorent.

Or fandoms can acknowledge and tackle the shitty toxicity and the power it has within the community rather than worrying about "NOT ALL STAR WARS FANS!"

Nappuccino · Jun 5, 2018

Einchy said:
That guy got shit on so hard he went to Ian Miles Cheong to get some back up. lol

And there goes his "argument"

PeskyToaster · Jun 5, 2018

People get real flexible with the definition of critique. A critique does not fit into a twitter post or comment.

Deleted member 13101 · Jun 5, 2018

But this is why people do it, for online "cred".

"Look, I just tangled with the director of TLJ and won."

If he gets retweeted or replied to by the "popular" Youtubers, he's an instant celebrity, however momentary.

EDIT: Of course, how they really feel about things is what fuels it, but they know there might be a payoff of being recognized for it online.

AncientReptileBrain · Jun 5, 2018

Surfinn said:
That's not my point. My point is that people coming in and digging up their hot takes about how much they hate her character in a thread about Tran being harassed off of the internet is completely unnecessary and inappropriate.

Fucking underlined and bolded. Jfc, people.

LabouredSubterfuge · Jun 5, 2018

Smelck said:
Any harrasment like this is abhorent.

Lumping a group of people together and blaming them as a collective is equally abhorent.

Not it's not.

Fuck me.

Everybody Lies · Jun 5, 2018

Salmonax said:
Sorry, thought you mentioned hating the movie in your post. Maybe I was confused.

And then went on to say that it would never occur to me to attack an actor for it. Where was I hedging toward empathy toward her attackers? Seemed quite the stretch to me to arrive where you did.

It might apply to some in the thread, but not me. I have nothing but disdain for those that put such toxicity out there.

Dizagaox · Jun 5, 2018

CrazyAndy said:
Never liked her character in Episode VIII but I would never think of going online and harass someone. She's an actress who just played a role.

This. I liked Rose, and understand why people don't, but to attack the actor is unacceptable.

UltimateHigh · Jun 5, 2018

Geek culture is trash.

If you can't immediately move on (or you get angry about any of this shit), you're the problem.

Gotdatmoney · Jun 5, 2018

Smelck said:
Any harrasment like this is abhorent.

Lumping a group of people together and blaming them as a collective is equally abhorent.

They are factually not equal at all. Do you understand what equal means?

Dook's Revenge · Jun 5, 2018

Einchy said:
That guy got shit on so hard he went to Ian Miles Cheong to get some back up. lol

Whoa. That Dashawn Webster story is outrageous. Surpised it isn't a bigger story.

CaviarMeths · Jun 5, 2018

Fuck me, this thread.

"Yeah, this seems like a good place to dump my TLJ hot take that literally zero humans give any kind of fuck about."
"Gosh, not ALL Star Wars fans, guys. Both sides are the same!"

If you thought this was a good time to make it about yourself, you were wrong. And you're an asshole.

Kelly Marie Tran has deleted her Instagram posts due harassment she has received after TLJ (Read OP)

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Drive-in Mutant

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Deleted member 31817

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"

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