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Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
So I've stumbled upon this blog entry which I found to be very interesting. The original article can be found at this link. I'll post here some paragraphs to give you an idea of the content.

So, here's the established duality between good and evil: good for Square Enix for having made Lara, at last, look like a human being and not having her sexualized, with no provocative, nor sexy outfits, and not overly sensual female features on her body; evil for Core Design, who exploited her sexy looks and sexualized her in a very sexist way. But, it's that simple?

Because she was -she has ALWAYS been- more than a pretty face and big tits. Core Design made her more than a sex symbol. They made her clever, witty, brave, fierce, brutal, ruthless and relentless. They made her powerful and independent. She was not a victim, she was a heroine. She was able to boss men around. She ruled her destiny, she made her own way. And she responded to no one. She used none of her physical attributes to do that: she had enough with her brilliant mind and her instinct. Also with brute force, which she used too without any kind of remorse.

Her erotic, sexual side starts and ends just in promotional renders, made only to catch attention from male gamers, not as a reflection on what the game itself offers.

I'm aware that probably I'm not gonna be popular for saying this, but in my humble opinion, among the so many other disasters which fell over Lara when the franchise passed from Core Design to Crystal, there was also the way in which Crystal managed Lara's sex appeal. For me, it was like a great jump from tasteful (Core Design) to distasteful (Crystal Dynamics). Sorry for the Manichaean duality, I can't express it otherwise.

And I think it's so unfair that Core Design has been stigmatized as the studio "who sexualized Lara Croft" when, in fact, Crystal Dynamics did worse in this aspect. To put another example, look at those outfits featuring the same horrible rags in other colours and all those bikinis. BIKINIS. To be used in-game. For a woman who is an explorer and archaeologist. Wow. Is that making any sense?

The article is pretty long and you'll find many examples and comparisons with pictures. People who are not familiar with the games, especially the old ones, should take a look at it since I feel a lot of misinformation has been spread throughout the years, since the series was taken from the original developers, and not in good faith.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Her erotic, sexual side starts and ends just in promotional renders, made only to catch attention from male gamers, not as a reflection on what the game itself offers.
It's like this person has actually played the older games and didn't just judge them based on Lara's design and marketing
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,783
I'm not particularly versed in the series but setting aside how much the marketing of the Tomb Raider games were always totally zeroing in on how much Lara was a sex symbol I was always under the impression, even as a teen, that her character in the Tomb Raider games themselves was more just a cool lady who just so happened to be sexy. At least that's the impression I got from all those games and why the character remained popular just as a cool, attractive character who appealed to both women and men.

The reboot just felt extremely exploitative in comparison, and it seems like subsequently in response to the backlash toward the reboot where they really tried to play up the whole "look how vulnerable she is" angle, they just kinda toned her down into being an average adventurer character who feels really boring.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,829
The only physical part of Laura's design I truly care about are her red tinted circular glasses. Not her boobs. Her personality is great, but the glasses is like icing on the cake.

I still dont understand why those were dropped.

No Glasses, No Buy.
 

Vlaphor

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,202
Topeka, KS
As a huge Lara Croft fan, let me say that I completely disagree with this. Crystal Dynamics Lara is best Lara, for two reasons. One is that the trilogy of game they put out are the best, and the second is that they finally made good on the sex appeal they had been teasing all those years with those promotional renders. Multiple, unlockable outfits, better representation of how she would look compared how the technology could render her, and even fun "physics" in the first two Crystal Dynamics games make them my preferred Tomb Raider games of choice.

Core Design Lara is a good start, and TR2013 is alright....but ROTR NuLara is complete garbage and my pick for worst video game protagonist of all time.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
487
As a huge Lara Croft fan, let me say that I completely disagree with this. Crystal Dynamics Lara is best Lara, for two reasons. One is that the trilogy of game they put out are the best, and the second is that they finally made good on the sex appeal they had been teasing all those years with those promotional renders. Multiple, unlockable outfits, better representation of how she would look compared how the technology could render her, and even fun "physics" in the first two Crystal Dynamics games make them my preferred Tomb Raider games of choice.

Core Design Lara is a good start, and TR2013 is alright....but ROTR NuLara is complete garbage and my pick for worst video game protagonist of all time.

I mean, if fanservice is what you are looking for in a game, then I understand you
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Jan 9, 2018
63
Classic Lara is still one of the best female characters in gaming.

Basically female Indiana Jones... but with her own identity and sense of self... but sexy.

Square Lara is... well she has a pretty face.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,866
I agree. Changing her physique doesn't mean shit when the result is making a weak Lara going through some torture porn and showing a sexual assault so that the player "would want to protect her", fuck that noise

Core Design Lara Croft was a sex symbol that earned and owned who she was regardless of the public's opinion, what CD did in the reboot was to put her in her place and relegate her to a malleable weakling in order to titillate a returning audience. That people ate this up will be the most mindboggling thing for me in this industry's history.
 

Arklite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,641
Trying to throw Crystal under the bus over Lara's prominent sex appeal that was always a factor doesn't work for me. Also their first trilogy had a fantastic Lara from a charm and wit standpoint. It's true though that new Lara has been slow to grow into an exciting lead.
 

Django

Banned
Jan 17, 2018
288
As a huge Lara Croft fan, let me say that I completely disagree with this. Crystal Dynamics Lara is best Lara, for two reasons. One is that the trilogy of game they put out are the best, and the second is that they finally made good on the sex appeal they had been teasing all those years with those promotional renders. Multiple, unlockable outfits, better representation of how she would look compared how the technology could render her, and even fun "physics" in the first two Crystal Dynamics games make them my preferred Tomb Raider games of choice.

Core Design Lara is a good start, and TR2013 is alright....but ROTR NuLara is complete garbage and my pick for worst video game protagonist of all time.
I kind of agree with this. The Crystal dynamics games represented Lara as the most badassed.

And I really don't think unlockable costumes meant to be fun and stupid are a good way to gauge the quality of the game or how much a character is sexualized.

If that was the case I would hate Resident Evil Revelations for Sexualizing Chris Redfield. Instead I'm just unhappy with how they sexualized Rachel...because that is in the actual main game.

large.jpg
 
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Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
487
Trying to throw Crystal under the bus over Lara's prominent sex appeal that was always a factor doesn't work for me. Also their first trilogy had a fantastic Lara from a charm and wit standpoint. It's true though that new Lara has been slow to grow into an exciting lead.

I understand your point of view but you must keep in mind that the opposite, Crystal Dynamics throwing old Lara under the bus, and her fans with her, has been happening for years. See, for example, the recent comment about dual pistols and bikini
 

Arklite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,641
I understand your point of view but you must keep in mind that the opposite, Crystal Dynamics throwing old Lara under the bus, and her fans with her, has been happening for years. See, for example, the recent comment about dual pistols and bikini
I do think it's odd how hellbent they are on absolutely not referencing relics of classic Lara but on the other hand I don't have a problem with them trying to make a new style of Lara. Just wish she was less bland.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I have said it before and I will say it again:

Classic Lara is a better feminist symbol compared to 2013 Lara. Old Lara started out with nothing, went against her parents and went on adventure and explorations. Everything she owns came out of her blood and sweat. Her parents weren't the reason she did what she did like the games that came afterward.
 

Briarios

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,238
The thing about Lara Croft, to me -- and of course this is wholly my opinion, is that while she had a big chest. she never acted like a sex object. Now, the marketing may treat her that way, but in game she was strong, smart, and fierce. Making it all about her bra size seems to say more about women with big boobs than how she was designed, which isn't really cool ... women with large breasts already tend to have more self-esteem issues. All I'm saying that there is more going on here than simply sex appeal and how people respond to it ... not everything is binary. It's complex.
 

Tunahead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
986
Old Lara was indeed full of personality. Some might argue that personality occasionally veered into being a bit of a bastard, with her hoarding tendencies and indiscriminate slaughter, but that was still compelling.

I've only played the first of the reboot games, but so much of it baffled me. There were all these characters who were gruff, confrontational, deceitful, or shrouded in a powerful miasma of gross Nice Guyness, and in the middle of it all, the non-character of Lara Croft. What's her personality supposed to be? Stoic, and later murderous? What are her interests? Looking photogenic, and later homicide? Even the voice acting was completely bewildering to me. There was a bit where she went full Rambo and said "I'm going to kill you all!" but in a voice that suggested she was saying it longingly to Romeo Montague from a balcony. Dreadful.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
I kind of agree with this. The Crystal dynamics games represented Lara as the most badassed.

And I really don't think unlockable costumes meant to be fun and stupid are a good way to gauge the quality of the game or how much a character is sexualized.

If that was the case I would hate Resident Evil Revelations for Sexualizing Chris Redfield. Instead I'm just unhappy with how they sexualized Rachel...because that is in the actual main game.

large.jpg

Absolutely.

But... the first chapter of Tomb Raider Underworld forces you to wear this for about an hour or so:
wetsuit.jpg

traid4.jpg
lara-crofts-bottom-1.jpg


It's not optional, it's the only costume that you can wear.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,200
I just find the Lara from the new games just so bland and boring.
Its like when they tried to unsexualise her, they also stripped out all of her personality.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
New Lara is 70% heavy breathing, 25% Torture porn death scenes, and 5% stagnation because they're terrified of making her go past an origin story. I

As a huge Lara Croft fan, let me say that I completely disagree with this. Crystal Dynamics Lara is best Lara, for two reasons. One is that the trilogy of game they put out are the best, and the second is that they finally made good on the sex appeal they had been teasing all those years with those promotional renders. Multiple, unlockable outfits, better representation of how she would look compared how the technology could render her, and even fun "physics" in the first two Crystal Dynamics games make them my preferred Tomb Raider games of choice.

Core Design Lara is a good start, and TR2013 is alright....but ROTR NuLara is complete garbage and my pick for worst video game protagonist of all time.
SO new Lara is better to you because of themore disgusting and realized sexualization. LMAO
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
I kind of agree with this. The Crystal dynamics games represented Lara as the most badassed.

And I really don't think unlockable costumes meant to be fun and stupid are a good way to gauge the quality of the game or how much a character is sexualized.

If that was the case I would hate Resident Evil Revelations for Sexualizing Chris Redfield. Instead I'm just unhappy with how they sexualized Rachel...because that is in the actual main game.

Well, but it's not only about unlockable costumes. The articles makes two other examples with standard costumes. Lara's personality and character development is criticized too.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
I kind of agree with this. The Crystal dynamics games represented Lara as the most badassed.

And I really don't think unlockable costumes meant to be fun and stupid are a good way to gauge the quality of the game or how much a character is sexualized.

If that was the case I would hate Resident Evil Revelations for Sexualizing Chris Redfield. Instead I'm just unhappy with how they sexualized Rachel...because that is in the actual main game.

large.jpg
Male sexualization is no where near equivalent to female sexualization. Women have been portrayed as sexy objects in media for decades, centuries, always behind the Protagonist Men.

Its disingenuous to compare them when the effects of female objectification are still harmful today.

Hell, that Chris costume is actively helpful, because it's a step in the right direction of giving male characters the same treatment.

Sexualization isn't inherently bad, it's when it's solely dedicated to women and continues a really shitty centuries old trope of "Need sexy lady"
 

Scherzo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,053
I always felt the biggest issue with OG Lara was the packaging around her. How it was without a hint irony sold to horny male gamers as if they were the only constituent of gamers that matter. It's a bit of a weird topic for me because I honestly like a bit of cheesecake--as a stupidly horny dude--in some of the media I consume, but the way the 90s laserfocused marketing to pander exclusively to straight teenage males is insufferable and I'm glad we've moved beyond that.

TBH, in a way I found all the 'you'll WANT to protect her' creepiness around TR 2013 more inherently problematic though, because it foisted a sense of paternalism on Lara I don't think was ever inherent to the original. Marketing contextualized Lara as a sex object in the 90s/2000s, but I think the idea that the game developers intended there to be a layer of abstraction in 2013 is a bit more fundamentally perverse.
 
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OP

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
487
Absolutely.

But... the first chapter of Tomb Raider Underworld forces you to wear this for about an hour or so:
wetsuit.jpg

traid4.jpg
lara-crofts-bottom-1.jpg


It's not optional, it's the only costume that you can wear.

Yes, especially when compared to the other wetsuits in the Core Design games:

tumblr_inline_o3dfknXTEA1tmhoiy_1280.jpg
a308c6e0e16c51a60c18e7bb8dc617b6.jpg


As pointed out by the linked article in the OP
 

Deleted member 18568

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Oct 27, 2017
944
User Banned (1 Day): Thread-whining, antagonizing another user, recently warned for similar behavior.
I want my five minutes back. What a bunch of baloney.

I'd hope the author was a bored kid, but it's full of creepy "my OG Lara would never lack such class to wear this one dress and should only be sexy how I like" bizarreness.

What exactly is the point of this blog?
 

Scherzo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,053
Yes, especially when compared to the other wetsuits in the Core Design games:

tumblr_inline_o3dfknXTEA1tmhoiy_1280.jpg
a308c6e0e16c51a60c18e7bb8dc617b6.jpg


As pointed out by the linked article in the OP

I think this sort of gets into the core question, is she a character where it makes sense for her to show off skin?

I guess if the question came to my desk, I'd allow the player to pick between different outfits, to allow them to either be skeevy or not.
 

S77

Banned
May 16, 2018
2
Can someone explain me what's wrong with the sexualization or oversexualization of a video game character? If that is how the developers/character designers wanted to portray a certain character in a game, while not breaking any laws or anything, how is it wrong or what is the problem? Is Japan really the last bastion of free speech in the video game industry (and not only)?
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Neither Lara's are without problems, and both come with heavy caveats to their design and handling
 

Staticneuron

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,187
I have said it before and I will say it again:

Classic Lara is a better feminist symbol compared to 2013 Lara. Old Lara started out with nothing, went against her parents and went on adventure and explorations. Everything she owns came out of her blood and sweat. Her parents weren't the reason she did what she did like the games that came afterward.

Wait what is wrong in following in your parents footsteps? That lessens someone success if they follow a path they have seen observed?
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Can someone explain me what's wrong with the sexualization or oversexualization of a video game character? If that is how the developers/character designers wanted to portray a certain character in a game, while not breaking any laws or anything, how is it wrong or what is the problem? Is Japan really the last bastion of free speech in the video game industry (and not only)?
Sexualization and objectification inherently ignores that women exist and actively don't want to see themselves made into fuck objects for male gamers to oggle. It's harmful to actual girls and women who want to see themselves in the games they play without the requirement that they be a sex object for their male friends.

Also lol Japan is nowadays the worst at representing literally anything that isnt a young straight light-skinned man
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
I want my five minutes back. What a bunch of baloney.

I'd hope the author was a bored kid, but it's full of creepy "my OG Lara would never lack such class to wear this one dress and should only be sexy how I like" bizarreness.

What exactly is the point of this blog?

It seems to me like you are being confrontational for the sake of it. Regarding the comparison between the 2 evening dresses you seem to speak of, it is argued that the one in TR Legend is more fanservice-y due to the fact that it makes no sense for Lara to go to a meeting with a yakuza in an evening dress while also carrying weapons with her. Whereas in the older game the evening dress is much more appropriate because Lara is simply enjoying a night at the opera. Additionally, when the game starts Lara changes herself in the classic outfit. The conclusion is that in TR Chronicles the dress serves the purpose of contextualizing the action while in TR Legend it's merely fanservice, compounded by the fact that Lara is "forced" (by the screenplay writers it could be argued) to shorten it in a cutscene, thus revealing her lingerie to the player.
 

Scherzo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,053
Can someone explain me what's wrong with the sexualization or oversexualization of a video game character? If that is how the developers/character designers wanted to portray a certain character in a game, while not breaking any laws or anything, how is it wrong or what is the problem? Is Japan really the last bastion of free speech in the video game industry (and not only)?

The issue is mainly 1) It's exclusionary, it says that these characters exist for the enjoyment of men first and foremost and 2) it reinforces conceptions of women in popular culture that their primary value is in a specific form of physical attractiveness.

I mean, I like a fair amount of pervy stuff in my media but I'm not gonna grandstand and act like it's perfectly harmless. Media doesn't exist in a vaccuum.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,787
I think the new Lara is a lot sexier because she feels a lot more realistic. Old Lara was always embarrassing, I felt demeaned by the gaming companies if they thought they could get me with a pair of huge tits and short shorts, I am glad she is gone, just like the E3 booth babes.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,088
Halifax, NS
I think the new Lara is a lot sexier because she feels a lot more realistic. Old Lara was always embarrassing, I felt demeaned by the gaming companies if they thought they could get me with a pair of huge tits and short shorts, I am glad she is gone, just like the E3 booth babes.

I feel like you're missing the entire point of the article.

The original Core Design games themselves never portrayed Lara in the way marketing would. She wasn't just a giant pair of tits and short shorts.

There honestly wasn't much wrong with Lara's original design, and it really wasn't until the (initial) Crystal Dynamics era that they really started to pump up the sex appeal/fanservice in-game.
 
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OP

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
I love the reboot designs, and ever liked the old deisgn.
434566744d1fd09617d0a29396fb3280.gif

I like the new design too. The only thing I dislike is her being noticeably shorter than before. This is very apparent in Rise when she stands alongside other characters. She is basically the shortest human in the game, which doesn't sit well with my idea of who Lara is supposed to be
 

Scherzo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,053
I think the new Lara is a lot sexier because she feels a lot more realistic. Old Lara was always embarrassing, I felt demeaned by the gaming companies if they thought they could get me with a pair of huge tits and short shorts, I am glad she is gone, just like the E3 booth babes.

To be fair, her breasts are still rather big in the new series.

I think she was a character that made sense for how much of a culture dumpsterfire the 90s were. Given that context I think there's a solid case for Lara being a step forward, even if the packaging around her could be ugly.
 

ADee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
963
Sweden
Can someone explain me what's wrong with the sexualization or oversexualization of a video game character? If that is how the developers/character designers wanted to portray a certain character in a game, while not breaking any laws or anything, how is it wrong or what is the problem? Is Japan really the last bastion of free speech in the video game industry (and not only)?

Sorry but I dislike when people use the "free speech" card. Free speech is that the government can't punish you for anything you say, it DOES NOT shield you from criticism.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,787
I feel like you're missing the entire point of the article.

The original Core Design games themselves never portrayed Lara in the way marketing would. She wasn't just a giant pair of tits and short shorts.

There honestly wasn't much wrong with Lara's original design, and it really wasn't until the Crystal Dynamics era that they really started to pump up the sex appeal/fanservice in-game.
I never said she was just that, but it's obvious why she was designed that way and even as a teenager I thought that was embarrassing.