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Dicer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,192
Your English and history teachers failed you.

Nope, if anything they showed me truth and fiction are two separate animals and not every piece of art/literature/film has some super secret or not so secret agenda...

Maybe the old man and the sea is a secret subtext to overfishing, you just might be onto something...but probably not.
 

War Peaceman

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,441
I see where you're coming from. I just see it as being indulgent in a fantasy concept without actually being a practitioner of it.

like getting of on incest porn without actually wanting to do your own mother
ahem ;)

For what its worth I think Zach Snyder felt the same way. I think it is a very well executed action film that totally nails what its going for
which happens to be fascistic ubermensch vision


Nope, if anything they showed me truth and fiction are two separate animals and not every piece of art/literature/film has some super secret or not so secret agenda...

Maybe the old man and the sea is a secret subtext to overfishing, you just might be onto something...but probably not.

Are you seriously suggesting truth and fiction are separate when fiction is written by real people? You are joking about Old Man and The Sea, right?
 

AWizardDidIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,461
I think that there's almost a way to read 300 as a movie *about* Propaganda in a fascist society in the same way something like Starship Troopers is where the audience is meant to understand that nothing depicted really happened as shown. I remember coming out of that movie as an older teenager and actually wondering if that was the point since the ending of the film frames everything before it as one man trying to motivate an army. For a while that was even my interpretation which I think I used then as a convenient way to gloss over just how problematic it was so I could appreciate the cinematography and visual effects relatively guilt free.

Now that I'm older I think I can admit to myself that Zack Snyder was in no way interested in the portraying anything other than the events of the comic at face value with complete sincerity towards Miller's vision. It was an ugly movie then and remains so today.
 

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,168
The first time I watched it I was a teen and thought it was awesome, but going back and watching it as an adult made me realise it's aged in more ways than one.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,102
UK
Nope, if anything they showed me truth and fiction are two separate animals and not every piece of art/literature/film has some super secret or not so secret agenda...

Maybe the old man and the sea is a secret subtext to overfishing, you just might be onto something...but probably not.
It's not about secret agendas but everything creative we make has politics behind it, conscious and unconscious, informed by our understanding of the world. We all have biases that might not be obvious to us. Art isn't made in an objective apolitical vacuum with no meaning, even the simplest of fiction.
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
Nope, if anything they showed me truth and fiction are two separate animals and not every piece of art/literature/film has some super secret or not so secret agenda...

Maybe the old man and the sea is a secret subtext to overfishing, you just might be onto something...but probably not.
You're not helping your case
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,276
Nope, if anything they showed me truth and fiction are two separate animals and not every piece of art/literature/film has some super secret or not so secret agenda...

Maybe the old man and the sea is a secret subtext to overfishing, you just might be onto something...but probably not.

Oh, so it was your school district that failed you.
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
Yeah how dare I have a differing viewpoint, the horror.

Enjoy crapping all over a decades old movie I guess.
But you're the one butthurt about opinions.

You can think whatever you want but you can't even defend your argument without descending into an unrelated strawman. Dude, you don't even grasp the inextricable relationship between fiction and commentary. As I said, your teachers failed you. The saddest part is you're not even equipped to consider whether or not I might be right.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,736
Honestly, the more I read posts here, the more I feel the article isn't well-written. It's focus is all over the place and it's points don't come off as strong as they should. I feel like that because those in here who agree with the article's stance are making much better arguments than the article itself.
 

Dicer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,192
The complete misunderstanding of where fiction comes is definitely a differing viewpoint. But don't take it so personally, no one is criticizing this movie to hurt you.

Oh I know that, but the hive-mind mentality of that other site is certainly leaking it's way here...I just take movies as entertainment, not looking for meaning or messages, I shut that part of my brain off and just watch it. I guess that's why I enjoy some SHITTY movies.

Edit: It does seem at least one person is taking it to a personal level.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,674
México
Nope, if anything they showed me truth and fiction are two separate animals and not every piece of art/literature/film has some super secret or not so secret agenda...

Maybe the old man and the sea is a secret subtext to overfishing, you just might be onto something...but probably not.

Huh. So Fiction has no way at all of delivering themes, story, ideas...?

What a strange class. I thought the class was supposed to make you think.
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
The funniest party is that all of these ridiculously offensive things aren't even subtext. They are the text period! You have to actively go out of your way to miss it.
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
Honestly, the more I read posts here, the more I feel the article isn't well-written. It's focus is all over the place and it's points don't come off as strong as they should. I feel like that because those in here who agree with the article's stance are making much better arguments than the article itself.
Yeah the article itself ain't great. There were some better pieces written in 2007 linked earlier.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,271
So I liked the film when it came out and I like it now, even knowing the arguments thrown at it. It has aged a bit poorly but that's okay; the movie still accomplishes it's goal as a macho action flick.

Are yall arguing that people shouldn't turn their brains off when watching movies? Because this is the type of flick where you do that and why you see so many responses that say they like the film simply because of the action (and abs).

Not to say that bad movies become good when you shut your brain off, but it certainly makes it more entertaining.
 

Deleted member 33887

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 20, 2017
2,109
The depiction of Persians was always super problematic. Xerxes in particular is caricatured to an absurd level. Long neck, abnormally tall, obscene amounts of jewelry, and nearly naked. There's no way he looked anything remotely like his depiction. It's almost as bad as the Praetorian Guard depiction in Ryse: Son of Rome. The ordinary Persian doesn't fare much better. Spartans can't even bother to keep a disciplined shield wall and they still truck 5-6 Persians in slow motion like it's no big deal. And then there's the stupid Immortals mask.

My friend who is a fan of dumb action movies forced me to watch it. I pointed out how overtly racist it was toward Persians, and he just kind of shrugged. I don't know how anyone can be blind to that sort of thing, I'm pretty sure most people would take issue if the way Leonidas and Xerxes were portrayed was reversed.
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,766
Wow I never realized there was controversy around it. It was a long time ago when I was a teen though. I was probably too busy staring at all the half naked men and imagining them [REDACTED] to notice it had a plot.
 

guek

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
So I liked the film when it came out and I like it now, even knowing the arguments thrown at it. It has aged a bit poorly but that's okay; the movie still accomplishes it's goal as a macho action flick.

Are yall arguing that people shouldn't turn their brains off when watching movies? Because this is the type of flick where you do that and why you see so many responses that say they like the film simply because of the action (and abs).

Not to say that bad movies become good when you shut your brain off, but it certainly makes it more entertaining.

"Turning off your brain" is fine! Enjoy what you enjoy, there's no shame in that. The issue is arguments for OTHER people to stop thinking or being critical of a piece of media. Saying it's "just a movie" isn't an actual argument or defense, it's an attempt to invalidate criticism altogether.

Everyone enjoys entrainment that's problematic to a certain degree. That doesn't mean the art we consume shouldn't be scrutinized or we should stop enjoying the things we enjoy.
 

Bramblebutt

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
1,858
Naw, it's a movie....based on a comic book, based on the creators liking of an earlier film and the subject matter, it's all fiction.

But then again, back in 1962 people thought that 300 spartans had an agenda as well, so I guess sometimes shit doesn't change.
Maybe people bring up political agendas in the retelling of this particular event in history because it's one of the cornerstones of the mythology of "Western Civilization." Even Herodotus's interpretation, the most direct account we have, is seen as questionable because of his Greek bias and his propensity to seek moral lessons in history.

300 is just the latest in a long, long line of historical appropriations and ineligant myth-making stretching back to antiquity itself showing what little regard "Western" patriots have for what ACTUALLY happened at Thermopylae, who ACTUALLY fought there, and, most importantly, WHY they fought. We should criticize the fiction here because, frankly, most of our understanding of Thermopylae is fiction.
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,271
"Turning off your brain" is fine! Enjoy what you enjoy, there's no shame in that. The issue is arguments for OTHER people to stop thinking or being critical of a piece of media. Saying it's "just a movie" isn't an actual argument or defense, it's an attempt to invalidate criticism altogether.

Everyone enjoys entrainment that's problematic to a certain degree. That doesn't mean the art we consume shouldn't be scrutinized or we should stop enjoying the things we enjoy.
Oh yeah... totally understood and I wasn't thinking of you posts here when asking that question. It just seemed odd to me how some posters in here question how others can just see it as an action film.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,102
UK
Oh I know that, but the hive-mind mentality of that other site is certainly leaking it's way here...I just take movies as entertainment, not looking for meaning or messages, I shut that part of my brain off and just watch it. I guess that's why I enjoy some SHITTY movies.
See, that's how you experience movies. But you're wanting to dictate your view onto others, that because you don't think about a movie while you're watching it, treating it as brainless entertainment, why don't others do as you do.
I feel for people can't just watch something and can't help but find faults or subtexts or hidden meanings in everything.
 

HTupolev

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,419
I like 300 as meta-narrative. The thing is, a lot of people look at it like you're supposed to take Delios seriously, and I'm not sure this wasn't the intent.
 

Deleted member 20284

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,889
Movie based on a comic book that was based on IRL events from a long gone era which has undertones that aren't PC for this era. I'm shocked.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,053
It's a movie, I don't take it as anything more than that...but we live in the day and age when everything is combed over looking for agendas and whatnot.

I feel for people can't just watch something and can't help but find faults or subtexts or hidden meanings in everything.

These racist ideas and concepts don't make their way into a movie by accident. You're plugging your ears and going "LA LA LA JUST A MOVIE" doesn't mean that there isn't an actual problem here.

Movie based on a comic book that was based on IRL events from a long gone era which has undertones that aren't PC for this era. I'm shocked.

Oh yeah, those irl brown homosexuals, hobbits, cripples, and mythological creatures REALLY come from real events.
 

Dicer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,192
User Banned (1 Week): Trolling topics about potentially harmful representations in media
These racist ideas and concepts don't make their way into a movie by accident. You're plugging your ears and going "LA LA LA JUST A MOVIE" doesn't mean that there isn't an actual problem here.

It is just a movie to me. I'm sorry I don't subscribe to the modern "problematic" culture. Everyone is offended for one reason or another and looking for reasons to be that way, that's not how I roll.

But fuck it, let's go through the entire history of cinema and pick each movie apart, I'm sure there is something to offend everyone in the world if we look hard enough.

Jaws, well shit that's offensive to sharks...ET that offensive to wayward space aliens...Beethoven offensive to Angry Saint Bernard's, Cujo offensive to Nice Saint Bernard's.

Home Alone, offensive to shitty parents...Beetlejuice offensive to the perverted undead...and so on and so forth.
 

TheDave545

Member
Nov 4, 2017
698
Great film then and great film now, I can still put it on and be entertained, if that's how the Spartans were back then, fine but ok how does it affect me?
 

Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,484
It is just a movie to me. I'm sorry I don't subscribe to the modern "problematic" culture. Everyone is offended for one reason or another and looking for reasons to be that way, that's not how I roll.

But fuck it, let's go through the entire history of cinema and pick each movie apart, I'm sure there is something to offend everyone in the world if we look hard enough.

Jaws, well shit that's offensive to sharks...ET that offensive to wayward space aliens...Beethoven offensive to Angry Saint Bernard's, Cujo offensive to Nice Saint Bernard's.

Home Alone, offensive to shitty parents...Beetlejuice offensive to the perverted undead...and so on and so forth.
So negative attitudes about racial minorities and members of lgbtq communities are equal to sharks, aliens, and dogs.
 

TheDave545

Member
Nov 4, 2017
698
It is just a movie to me. I'm sorry I don't subscribe to the modern "problematic" culture. Everyone is offended for one reason or another and looking for reasons to be that way, that's not how I roll.

But fuck it, let's go through the entire history of cinema and pick each movie apart, I'm sure there is something to offend everyone in the world if we look hard enough.

Jaws, well shit that's offensive to sharks...ET that offensive to wayward space aliens...Beethoven offensive to Angry Saint Bernard's, Cujo offensive to Nice Saint Bernard's.

Home Alone, offensive to shitty parents...Beetlejuice offensive to the perverted undead...and so on and so forth.

Hahaha this is like I was reading my own thoughts, great post, I too don't subscribe to the "problematic" culture, keep loving movies my good man because I will too.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
It is just a movie to me. I'm sorry I don't subscribe to the modern "problematic" culture. Everyone is offended for one reason or another and looking for reasons to be that way, that's not how I roll.

But fuck it, let's go through the entire history of cinema and pick each movie apart, I'm sure there is something to offend everyone in the world if we look hard enough.

Jaws, well shit that's offensive to sharks...ET that offensive to wayward space aliens...Beethoven offensive to Angry Saint Bernard's, Cujo offensive to Nice Saint Bernard's.

Home Alone, offensive to shitty parents...Beetlejuice offensive to the perverted undead...and so on and so forth.

Is it so hard to ask to understand that it's possible to both enjoy something and be able to look at it from a cultural and critical standpoint as well? Your simplistic view that all criticism of a movie's unfortunate implications and subtext is equivalent to being an extremist Tumblr user that is 'offended over everything' is pretty silly.l
 

riverfr0zen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,164
Manhattan, New York
Yeah, even when it came out I found the emphasis on hyper-stylized slow-mo fetishizations over meaningful narrative and characterization pretty off-putting. I remember at the time that a friend of mine who was going on a Sam Harris bender was really into it and talking up how the movie exemplifies the virtues of that vein of objectivist mindset, so I'm pretty sure there are swaths of people who really buy into its hedonistic overdrive and somehow see it for more than it really is.

On a side note (and my intention is not to distract the thread) what the hell is Mandatory.com and why is there a section in the main navigation called "Girls" which essentially appears to catalog objectifications of women? Am I missing something there?
 

Doomsayer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,621
I haven't watched this movie since it came out in 2006, I was 18 at the time.

It was obviously propaganda from the mouthpiece of the Spartan telling the story. I had always thought that he was just making the Persians seem like monsters because that's who they were up against. I think that's another reason that Xerxes was like 10 foot tall and chiseled, because he was trying to emphasize what type of evil they were up against. Reading some points in here kind of make me want to watch the movie again, under a new set of eyes/values. Granted at 18 I wasn't ask aware of politics, social issues, etc as I am now, so maybe that had something to do with it.

Interesting read.
 

Bramblebutt

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
1,858
It is just a movie to me. I'm sorry I don't subscribe to the modern "problematic" culture. Everyone is offended for one reason or another and looking for reasons to be that way, that's not how I roll.

But fuck it, let's go through the entire history of cinema and pick each movie apart, I'm sure there is something to offend everyone in the world if we look hard enough.

Jaws, well shit that's offensive to sharks...ET that offensive to wayward space aliens...Beethoven offensive to Angry Saint Bernard's, Cujo offensive to Nice Saint Bernard's.

Home Alone, offensive to shitty parents...Beetlejuice offensive to the perverted undead...and so on and so forth.
Being aware of the intent of the author and the history of similar adaptations of the same story doesn't preclude enjoying a shitty action flick. I can enjoy 300 for what it is, it's just that what it is is a campy, fascistic portrayal of the battle of White Europe to repel the invading dark skinned foreign hordes for the sake of their patriotism, freedom, democracy, and family. All of which the real Spartans had wildly different ideas of than the modern interpretation.
 

loquaciousJenny

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,457
My last year of high school our teachers told us that they had failed us as teachers, that people were graduating and found themselves out of their league in college and unable to think critically or find subtext in media. That whole year was basically dedicated to making people think about what they were reading because there was more to it then just remembering the plot.

Any teacher that tells you not to think critically is either a failure or considers you one.
 

phantomx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,801
Loved 300 back in the day, still do.

Articles like this do more to create divisiveness than the original movie, imo.
 

Rymuth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,025
I think that there's almost a way to read 300 as a movie *about* Propaganda in a fascist society in the same way something like Starship Troopers is where the audience is meant to understand that nothing depicted really happened as shown.

That's because Verhoven consciously made a satire of the source material and presented an adaptation that's an admonishment of the book's pro-fascist message.
 

brownmagic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
505
Yeah minorities, stop getting offended at negative portrayals of yourselves that are used to further strengthen certain people's hatred towards you in the present!

I'm a minority. Please don't speak for me. I'd rather spend my time and energy perpetuating positive images of my race and calling out the ACTUAL discrimination that happens in the real world, i.e. in housing, workplaces, justice.