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eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,300
Yeah, I mean I get that but arent these types of game supposed to be all about the story. How can you have something that literally is an interactive movie/adventure game that has scenes handled as badly as mentioned in these reviews and not see the flaws.

It does interest me in how these games would review as a film.
Heavy Rain would be the worst movie ever. It was hilarious though. Even if the story is bad and even badly told, that still means I can have a lot of fun with playing that story, thus making what would be a complete disastrous movie a fun to play game.

I'll see for myself when I play it, I've avoided reviews and even the demo so I really know almost nothing about the game, but I simply based my purchase on QD's previous games which I thought were all great fun in spite of their terribly told stories.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,347
Just because something is cinematic doesn't mean it is trying to be a movie. Movies and games will always be different but they are entertainment.
Do you think Beyond Two Souls casting Ellen Page & Willem Dafoe, as well as being the first game to debut at the Tribeca film festival was that all shits and giggles to you or? '

I just don't want reviews to start incorporating the authors views on social issues and politics. Leave that for property debate. And it appears a lot of reviewers have personal issues with David Cage. I don't need them to vent that in a review.
If you're gonna examine a work you absolutely need to take into account how it fits into the social climate, (especially one with such heavy loaded imagery that apparently does very little with it) as well as the context of it's creation, like the fact that this is:
tm4NqUh.gif
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,712
LA
Yeah, I mean I get that but arent these types of game supposed to be all about the story. How can you have something that literally is an interactive movie/adventure game that has scenes handled as badly as mentioned in these reviews and not see the flaws.

It does interest me in how these games would review as a film.

Considering almost all movies adapted from video games are terrible.

...
 

nycgamer4ever

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
861
To people who have responded to some of my comments I just want to say I am not ignoring you by not responding. The thread is moving too fast and I have to leave to pick up my kids. Maybe I'll be able to respond later. But for those who agreed with me thank you. And for those who don't let's agree to disagree but no hard feelings. See y'all later.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
No, it doesn't. It sounds like YOU made your mind up about her assestment of the game before you got to the end and are using the opening of her review to justify it.

She provides plenty of reason why she thinks the story is problematic. She isn't making things up out of thin air, she's pulling examples from the game's narrative and examining how its ideas clash with the real world history Cage claimed to be inspired by.

You guys gotta stop with this.

For clarity: You are okay to think these things aren't problems but getting pissy with people who do is ridiculous.

EDIT: She also stated that she thought the game was the studio's best effort yet, at least technically.

EDIT 2:

Dude, most don't even try to do what she did. They aren't thinking about that kind of stuff. Game reviews are mostly awful.
I think most just don't understand that the Mashable review is actually directly engaging with the content of the game. Moreso than other reviewers by actually discussing its contents and story telling. The game is a social commentary, so it's natural to see parallels with the real world stuff and discuss it, and though no one wants to hear it or talk about it, it will mean bringing up David Cage himself and those accusations made against him as his game has similar themes.

Reviews like that are something we need more of in games to get better stories. That's the sort of harsher criticism we need.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,769
That mashable review is really well written and damning. This is what I don't get about video games. How can that person be writing about the same game as these positive reviews. Is it that the mashable reviewer is over sensitive or are games reviewers in general willing to overlook such blatant failures in story and tone because, you know ...pretty graphics. How can someone aim to make a game with this story and seemingly pull it off so badly yet still receive praise from the majority of outlets. I just don't get it.
Video games, comparative to most art forms out there, is still a medium that's in it's infancy. Because of that, it's easy to want to prop games that are exceptionally transparent about their mature storytelling. In a sense, presentation is extremely important, but often acts as a double edged sword, if not a crutch at times, because it can easily distract a product from it's narrative failings. It's a shame, because there are a bunch of video games out there that have some incredibly fantastic stories and writing, but they fall to the wayside in favor of the ones that can manage to have bigger dollar signs behind them... even if a lot of them are extremely perfunctory in a lot of ways.

I could probably name a bunch of games that have stories, characters and themes better realized than the new God of War for instance. That's a game that's following an extremely tried-and-tested formula, with some overall predictable character beats. But it's the presentation that makes it something people are drawn to. It's overall a nice spectacle to experience.

In contrast movies can come in all different genres and forms, but they're not necessarily thought any lesser for it when it comes to their narrative heft because we've had decades of cinema that has matured enough for all of it to get it's fair share of dues. Sure, there's always your standard "Oscar season" movie. But in a narrative sense, even something like The Lego Movie comes to mind in regards to a film that isn't necessarily "high brow entertainment", but was extremely resonant with people and critics alike, not just for it's entertainment value but for it's nuanced takes and deconstructions of narrative trappings pertaining to the often-reused hero's journey model.

That said all of this isn't necessarily a problem that's unique to just video games and even movies go through this from time to time. In a blockbuster landscape you have some instances like Jurassic World and Star Trek: Into Darkness that were honestly pretty terrible under the surface in a lot of subtle and devious ways, which were generally still hailed for multiple reasons. But then you have the more overt cases. Remember Crash? That movie has not aged well at all when time came to re-evaluate it. It was critically hailed on release, won a bunch of awards, but nowadays a lot more people are of the mind that it did not deserve said praise. The movie was just a bunch of manipulative smoke and mirrors when you get down to it.

As another piece of medium dealing with racial allegory an societal commentary I can't help but wonder how revisits of Detroit will be like.
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
i think the reviews are really missing out on the most obvious projection of david cage into his game: the massive boner he has for petite women with pixie haircuts (bonus points for making her mostly underage in beyond)
 

Tintin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
140
All I got to say is that the David Cage hate train is real out here.

Always been that way to be fair.

Glad it's around the same metacritic score as Until Dawn at least (1 point higher actually).

And I've enjoyed the last two Quantic Dream games so definitely looking forward to playing Detroit.
 

Buckley

Banned
Nov 20, 2017
487
What games have you played with greatstories? Edit: sorry, wrong person
No, it doesn't. It sounds like YOU made your mind up about her assestment of the game before you got to the end and are using the opening of her review to justify it.

She provides plenty of reason why she thinks the story is problematic. She isn't making things up out of thin air, she's pulling examples from the game's narrative and examining how its ideas clash with the real world history Cage claimed to be inspired by.

You guys gotta stop with this.

For clarity: You are okay to think these things aren't problems but getting pissy with people who do is ridiculous.

EDIT: She also stated that she thought the game was the studio's best effort yet, at least technically.

EDIT 2:

Dude, most don't even try to do what she did. They aren't thinking about that kind of stuff. Game reviews are mostly awful.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
Sorry for being so triggered. I didn't mean it this way. I just want to play games not discuss politics.

You are free to do that of course but as an artistic medium we need voices that analyze games more seriously and push them to be better. And that includes exploring what they say or mean. Either through writing or game mechanics.

As with everything you are free to not engage with that. But in a game like this one specifically I'm not sure how you can do it and ence why I'm more interested in hearing from some voices and others I am not.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
It seems more like the opposite? People complaining that it should have reviewed worse and that those who like it aren't qualified to review it.

Agreed. The thread is filled with people cherry picking the most critical reviews, images, tweets and excerpts (often completely out of context) to exemplify the negatives, or in some cases pander to their own confirmation bias or pre-determined disdain for the title/QD/Cage (which some have openly admitted in the thread), whilst simultaneously ignoring the review consensus, which is overwhelmingly positive.

Notice in the last several pages, not a single positive review (which constitutes the vast majority of reviews) or tweets is being re-quoted (with the exception of Cory Barlogs, which was met with distrust), just the most negative ones over and over.

If you browsed through the thread not knowing the meta, you'd probably think it was sitting on an average of 50 or 60 or something, much less its actual aggregate of 80.
 

Buckley

Banned
Nov 20, 2017
487
What games have you played with greatstories?
Sorry, wrong person
No, it doesn't. It sounds like YOU made your mind up about her assestment of the game before you got to the end and are using the opening of her review to justify it.

She provides plenty of reason why she thinks the story is problematic. She isn't making things up out of thin air, she's pulling examples from the game's narrative and examining how its ideas clash with the real world history Cage claimed to be inspired by.

You guys gotta stop with this.

For clarity: You are okay to think these things aren't problems but getting pissy with people who do is ridiculous.

EDIT: She also stated that she thought the game was the studio's best effort yet, at least technically.

EDIT 2:

Dude, most don't even try to do what she did. They aren't thinking about that kind of stuff. Game reviews are mostly awful.
 

NLCPRESIDENT

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,969
Midwest
I truly hope so. I always see comments like "with this score, I'll wait for sales" here. I guess the general public does not follow scores as closely.

Oh it'll be fine, lol. It's gotten enough 9's and 10's to pull off a great accolades trailer!

I hope I end up liking this game, it seems so interesting. We'll see tomorrow.

Edit OT: I don't delve in this bullshit, it seems people only wanna fight the good fight when it aligns with their agenda.

We get another good game from Sony and QD, positive reviews and they still come out of the woodwork to tell you how mad you should be, or to point out the flaws. Makes no sense.
 
Last edited:

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
Anti-intelectualismo in the some circles here is really something else.

If someone analyses something deeper than "its fun" it's almost always called pretentious by someone.
 
Dec 4, 2017
11,481
Brazil
I always forget that Until Dawn isn't a Quantic Dream game, it was the natural step after heavy rain, the quality of the game, with its different paths and characters, and now we have Detroit which seems to have the same number of different consequences. Cant wait to play

If you browsed through the thread not knowing the meta, you'd probably think it was sitting on an average of 50 or 60 or something, much less its actual aggregate of 80.
Painfully true
 

ArsGoetia

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
57
I loved all quantic dream/cage games so far, and looking forward to playing this game later when it unlocks.. pretty hyped so far...
 

black070

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,583
Agreed. The thread is filled with people cherry picking the most critical reviews, images, tweets and excerpts (often completely out of context) to exemplify the negatives, or in some cases pander to their own confirmation bias or pre-determined disdain for the title/QD/Cage (which some have openly admitted in the thread), whilst simultaneously ignoring the review consensus, which is overwhelmingly positive.

Notice in the last several pages, not a single positive review (which constitutes the vast majority of reviews) or tweets is being re-quoted (with the exception of Cory Barlogs, which was met with distrust), just the most negative ones over and over.

If you browsed through the thread not knowing the meta, you'd probably think it was sitting on an average of 50 or 60 or something, much less its actual aggregate of 80.

Exactly this, not that I'm surprised.
 

Kraken3dfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,945
Denver, CO
ACG's review kind of sold me on this, I'll definitely pick it up at some point, knee deep in State of Decay 2 and working through some older God of War games at the moment though.
 

Wulfram

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,478
i think the reviews are really missing out on the most obvious projection of david cage into his game: the massive boner he has for petite women with pixie haircuts (bonus points for making her mostly underage in beyond)

pixie haircuts might be just because they're easier to do than long hair.
 

Gen X

Member
Oct 31, 2017
987
New Zealand
Game actually sounds a lot better than I was anticipating. I loved Heavy Rain, not so much Beyond Two Souls, but am definitely keen for this.
 

dreamlongdead

Member
Nov 5, 2017
2,640
This is a strong rebound from Beyond: Two Souls. Detroit probably isn't for me, but I consider this to be a critical success for Quantic Dream.

I think it will be commercially successful. I actually expect a stronger opening than Heavy Rain, but its legs remain to be seen.
 

DrDeckard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,109
UK
Until dawn was one of my favourite games this gen. Me and my fiance played it and we had a blast. It was purposefully designed to be a hack n slash horror game. An interactive slasher movie that everyone knows not to take seriously.

This game is blatantly using racial history and commentary on racism and race to push it's narrative. We should be able to express that we would like reviewers to be more demanding of narrative quality on a project that chooses this is kind of subject matter imo.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,854
pixie haircuts might be just because they're easier to do than long hair.

Ironically it's just a coincidence.

It was technical in Heavy Rain (long hair), in Beyond it was just to show different stages of her life (she had dozens of hairstyles), and in Detroit it's because the actress had this hairstyle 8 years ago when they first created Kara.
 

Angel DvA

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
80 meta with more than 70 critics is really good for me, it's more than Until Dawn and I freaking loved it, I'm ready for tomorrow.

Yeah, I think people are still caught up on the whole "7/10? THAT'S LITERALLY SHIT".

This is the other end of the spectrum lol. A 8/10 means really good, not BOTW or God of War level.

But GOW is not even close BOTW so....

A series where a guy murdered his family then murdered everyone else for like 6 games straight is getting its balls licked because the guy is sorta sad about it and has a new kid because he needed to replace the other one he murdered

LMAO.
 

BuBu Jenkins

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,064
80-85 just as i predicted. Got the digital deluxe preordered and ready for yet another high quality 1st party single player game. Keep em comin Sony :D
 

BigJeffery

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,338
Oh it'll be fine, lol. It's gotten enough 9's and 10's to pull off a great accolades trailer!

I hope I end up liking this game, it seems so interesting. We'll see tomorrow.

Edit OT: I don't delve in this bullshit, it seems people only wanna fight the good fight when it aligns with their agenda.

We get another good game from Sony and QD, positive reviews and they still come out of the woodwork to tell you how mad you should be, or to point out the flaws. Makes no sense.

Why doesn't it make sense? The Metacritic score isn't the Word of God, and reviewers can (and frequently do!) have bad taste.
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,459
What games have you played with greatstories?
Sorry, wrong person

Are you talking to me or nah? You've posted this twice and gone "Sorry, wrong person." Make up your mind, lol.

Maybe I'm just not sophisticated enough to realize that these movies are making a statement or providing a deep social commentary. Or maybe I just don't care. whatever the case is that isn't why I watch movies or play games. If you have an issue with the writer's deficiencies that is fine. That's your opinion. You can take it up with him. I'm sure he is more than willing to discuss. Don't use the review format to go after the guy. Tell me some other things about the game that is relevant to the review. Like how long it the game, How does it perform technically? How extensive is the branching path, etc. I'll be the first to admit David Cage's writing leaves a lot to be desired. Anyone who has played his previous games knows this. But that didn't stop me from enjoying his games, even the crappy Beyond Two Souls.

Maybe I just view entertainment differently than you. Maybe I'm not sophisticated enough or just want to escape from reality when I play games. So with that we can just agree to disagree.
He's proven that he's not. There are receipts for this.

We have enough of the reviews you're asking for, we don't need more of it. We need proper art criticism.

But since we seem to be on opposing sides of the fence in regards to games as art, I'm stopping this conversation here. I appreciate your honesty.

But that's the thing, it's not a deep thinking analysis, it's just a presumptuous and overly pretentious one. It actually assumes that Detroit is some sort of all encompassing and important manual or set of social guidelines or something that as a result must be knocked down, that it means to "speak to and for everyone" when it doesn't and never pretends to. It's just a piece of entertainment media. Sure it has its own narrative and message/theme, as most stories do, but you either enjoy it or you don't, there's no need to make it sound more insidious or ill intended than it actually is.

And it's not about posting for Sony or any nonsense like that, for many the reward is the game. Eg another game they can play or enjoy (or not), that happens to be predominantly well recieved. Ultimately Detroit is actually a very unique type of game that essentially stands in its own sort of genre. If you enjoy these kinds of games, well, there isn't really many other devs who are doing them.

This may be the worst response I've gotten in this thread.

A series where a guy murdered his family then murdered everyone else for like 6 games straight is getting its balls licked because the guy is sorta sad about it and has a new kid because he needed to replace the other one he murdered

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

Damn good post.

I LOVE the new GOD OF WAR, so Cory don't come for me!
 

Prologue

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
781
All things considering, I think an 80 is a solid buy considering the game's genre and the company's previous reception regarding their other game(that I still enjoyed).
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Game actually sounds a lot better than I was anticipating. I loved Heavy Rain, not so much Beyond Two Souls, but am definitely keen for this.

This is me too. I think I'll enjoy the game as many reviews have stated this is QD's best game yet, that and I generally enjoy narratives or concepts around androids, identity, being etc, plus ACG and EZA were very positive on it, but at the same time I'm not entirely sure either.

Like yourself, I enjoyed Heavy Rain but wasn't too keen on Beyond Two Souls. I thought Beyond started off fairly strong but fell apart by the last third due to a rushed, overly messy and undercooked narrative, and character relationship arc which lacked emotional resonance and believability.

Curious to see how Detroit directly compares to the other games. In the video reviews I've watched in terms of presentation, animations, writing and (much of the) voice acting, it does seem more competent, as it should given the generation gap.
 

Angel DvA

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
User banned (3 days): thread derailment
Wha-? Its literally 3 metacritic points off, lol. On top of that, no reviews are mixed, literally all of them are positive.

No one will remember GOW like they will remember BOTW in x years, GOW is the most overrated game of this generation, I'm not saying it's a bad game because it's not but it shouldn't be put in the same league as BOTW.
 

data

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,722
Let me start off with that with the ongoing investigations regarding QD and the actions of David Cage internally that I do have a bias against David Cage currently.

Therefore, I would like to ask those that are defending David Cage and supporting his actions and/or want more of an objective review, what would be the best way to abstract away any precognizant of the game and it's creator?

To me, I find it difficult to create any sort of review without even the slightest bias.

Take for a good example Nintendo. They have a pretty good track record and a lot of good series so some people have some nostalgia bias when making the reviews even when there are flaws in their games that others do not like. Still, most of their games review well.

Regarding video games in general, how do you review any video game objectively? I'm genuinely curious because if you compare it to other games within the same genre, obviously there's slight bias there as each game creates different experiences. I would say that it wouldn't be fair to compare Until Dawn to this game as they both create different sorts of experiences imo.

Obviously you don't compare a racing game to a fighting game but what can people do to remove bias and do 'objective' reviews when imo it's really hard to do so especially if your a veteran in gaming who has gone through other experiences or a new gamer who is not 'tainted' yet but doesn't give you as much credibility
 

Stoopkid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,368
And yet these are the same sites that'll write articles criticizing gamers for being so hostile to developers.

Yep that's games journalism.

No one will remember GOW like they will remember BOTW in x years, GOW is the most overrated game of this generation, I'm not saying it's a bad game because it's not but it shouldn't be put in the same league as BOTW.

Lol this review thread truly has everything.
 

phant0m

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,361
Preordered mine after reviews came out. Clearly the genre just isn't everyone's cup of tea, as is indicated by it getting 85s/90s as well as 50s/60s, you're either onboard or you're not. The many scores above 80 tell me the quality is there.

Can't wait to play tomorrow!
 

Rahfiki

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,022
After reading so many positive reviews about Beyond Two Souls and Heavy Rain when they came out I am aggressively distrustful of all the scores/everything I've read so far. Even so good on the studio for making another well received game. If it turns out that the group of people hired to reign Cage's craziness in were actually successful then maybe I'll pick it up. Until then I eagerly anticipate watch the SBFP playthrough.
 

NLCPRESIDENT

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,969
Midwest
Until dawn was one of my favourite games this gen. Me and my fiance played it and we had a blast. It was purposefully designed to be a hack n slash horror game. An interactive slasher movie that everyone knows not to take seriously.

This game is blatantly using racial history and commentary on racism and race to push it's narrative. We should be able to express that we would like reviewers to be more demanding of narrative quality on a project that chooses this is kind of subject matter imo.
Me too, but the reviews have to actually be good. Another instance, where I was looking forward to reviews hitting on social commentary was with Bioshock: Infinite.....

I got nothing. All the reviews talked about were the normal things on their checklists. The reviews I read didn't say anything about it; the little girl singing negro spirituals in the dark alley, or even shanty town itself, for example.

The whole fucking game was based on racism. I didn't hear a peep about none of it.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
Preordered mine after reviews came out. Clearly the genre just isn't everyone's cup of tea, as is indicated by it getting 85s/90s as well as 50s/60s, you're either onboard or you're not. The many scores above 80 tell me the quality is there.

Can't wait to play tomorrow!
You're going to love it.
No one will remember GOW like they will remember BOTW in x years, GOW is the most overrated game of this generation, I'm not saying it's a bad game because it's not but it shouldn't be put in the same league as BOTW.
But GOW is not even close BOTW so....
Agree. Because GOW is way better :) Game of the generation.