It's more-or-less a response to the Kotaku article tackling the same topic with Omni's own thoughts on the subject. Omni puts out great videos overall, & I feel like this one is no different.
Source: Omni (YouTube)
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Lay It Omni: What REALLY Stops Women From Going Pro in Esports?
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
It's more-or-less a response to the Kotaku article tackling the same topic with Omni's own thoughts on the subject. Omni puts out great videos overall, & I feel like this one is no different.
Source: Omni (YouTube)
The video covered all the bases, almost to the point where this thread will end up being somewhat redundant. Thanks for making the thread though.
Yeah but this is explicitly addressed in the video.
The video goes into further depth on why the article got that response.Yeah but
It was PROVED one and again that women receive MUCH more harassment on gaming.
Hell, both a gay man and a black man can "sound white male" and receive less harassment.
Women receive shit when BUYING games. From the random game store employee
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Omni actually mentioned those responses in his video & why they ended up being how they are.Yeah but
It was PROVED one and again that women receive MUCH more harassment on gaming.
Hell, both a gay man and a black man can "sound white male" and receive less harassment.
Women receive shit when BUYING games. From the random game store employee
And thios is why my post has more than that
Because he adressed shitly.
"gay and black people are also harassed" is a shitty reason
See Ricki Ortiz. She is a huge player. The fact that she was read as a gay man for a long time helped her to reach heights most cis women haven't meet
Sexism plays a big contributing factor in why esports games are less popular among women to begin with tho, but I don't think it's the sole factor.
I think the predominately factors when it comes to PRO gaming are two folds:
There are many games that are solo-games where you can compete genderless, but there is rarely a women at the top. e.g. Fighting Games like Street Fighter. Maybe they simply don't appeal to them as much.
I think the predominately factors when it comes to PRO gaming are two folds:
- There aren't as many women interested in pursuing pro gaming.
- Sponsorship / interest are predominantly a men thing.
There are many games that are solo-games where you can compete genderless, but there is rarely a women at the top. e.g. Fighting Games like Street Fighter. Maybe they simply don't appeal to them as much.
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gee i wonder if less numbers could be because of sexism driving women away and having a domino effect on other women who would have an interest were it not for the first domino
gee
(Sexism is the number one reason by a million miles. It's a bit of a circular effect. Not attacking you, but I think you're missing some nuance here.)
But he also addresses that men make up the majority of gaming, which causes this trend of men being shitty mostly towards women, which causes women to not want to compete or think about going pro, and now we have this problem. Yeah, the point got a little messy when he tried to explain that other men get harassed too.
I would argue that fighting games from my experiences has a lot more woman players than any other competitive genre. I don't mean pro players, I mean that these games simply appeal more to women on a consumer level.
Weird video. The initial portion where he says that it's purely lack of skill, it's like explaining the obesity epidemic as being caused by people eating too much. Yes, but what are the root causes for that?
Then when he does go into the underlying reasons, he basically agrees with the Kotaku article which he previously dismissed by saying "Well, let's just say it was a Kotaku article."
So I found the video a bit all over the place.
Then when he does go into the underlying reasons, he basically agrees with the Kotaku article which he previously dismissed by saying "Well, let's just say it was a Kotaku article."
So I found the video a bit all over the place.
It's probably cuz with fighting games it's an open environment for anyone to sign up and compete. Other esports require you to go through many hoops just to get placed on a team but with fighting games all you gotta do is pay the entrance fee and your good to go.
An 18 year old person cant just decide one day to become a pro Overwatch player without years of prior experience of gaming. The same thing would apply to a professional footballer. It's more socially acceptable for boys to play games than girls. I think it is far more likely that parents would buy a Playstation for their 5 year old son and buy something different for their 5 year old daughter and your path to becoming a pro starts from there so men will have the larger talent pool. I think this is the largest contributor and it's pretty stupid to just blame "men".
When we talk about simply playing online a fighting game doesn't require you to talk to the other player, and your username doesn't really give out if your gender.
Although I liked the content of this video, it's weird he didn't engage at all with the Kotaku article/interview that inspired his premise
You know what happened when a woman showed that she was pro level in overwatch?
She received SO MANY people saying she was cheating she had to play live in front of people with blizzard help to prove she was just good
And she cleared her name and became a pro competing in OWL. Just seems like proof that if you are talented enough you will make it.
before watching: men
after watching: down to the root of the problem, definitely still men
what was this video trying to prove again
after watching: down to the root of the problem, definitely still men
what was this video trying to prove again
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Speaking from personal experience, I find the fighting game community to be insanely welcoming (regardless of gender, race, or sexuality). I honestly took that to heart when I was getting my local scene going.
Of if you have a skin so thick it is made of steel.
I have seen male players give up for SO MUCH less
User Banned (2 Weeks): Sexism.
The average woman's reaction time is approx 100millisecond slower than the average male's (the gap is smaller among young healthy athletes in their prime but still of consequential value). In today's social climate it might not be politically correct to point this out - but the fact is that the way some competitive videogames work, people with faster reaction times will have a sizeable advantage. (esp in certain e-sports like counter-strike where reaction time to peeking corners/peeking players is insanely important to the millisecond)
During the CGS, (the championship gaming series, no longer around), there was a reaction time test machine and the e-sports pros who tested on it almost always showed that the pro guy gamers would have about 80-150ms faster reaction time than the pro girl gamers.
This research article is one of the easier ones to read on this topic, as most of them use scientific jargon which isn't meant for public consumption.
It would be great if everyone, no matter their sex, was 100% equal on biological footing so we didn't have to deal with these discrepancies - one possible solution would be a setup similar to the NBA/WNBA, have a 'everyone' league and a 'women' league (though money talks and it will only happen if some suit sees profit in it)
Mod Edit: Please do not edit posts to remove the context for warnings or bans.
During the CGS, (the championship gaming series, no longer around), there was a reaction time test machine and the e-sports pros who tested on it almost always showed that the pro guy gamers would have about 80-150ms faster reaction time than the pro girl gamers.
This research article is one of the easier ones to read on this topic, as most of them use scientific jargon which isn't meant for public consumption.
It would be great if everyone, no matter their sex, was 100% equal on biological footing so we didn't have to deal with these discrepancies - one possible solution would be a setup similar to the NBA/WNBA, have a 'everyone' league and a 'women' league (though money talks and it will only happen if some suit sees profit in it)
Mod Edit: Please do not edit posts to remove the context for warnings or bans.
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Yikes at this post.
If you've ever been to a fighting game tournament, you know exactly why women don't want to participate or be there. It is inherently aggressive. "Average reaction time" doesn't mean shit when you have a room full of smelly assholes, sometimes literally.
Obama became president which is proof that black people should stop crying about racism and just try harder.
Have you seen the routine hate threads players and teams get on reddit for being bad, or all the death threads a CS:GO player receives on twitter after losing a match and someone's skin better money or some players being mocked by Twitch chat constantly. You need skin thick as steel to be in esports regardless of gender.
Women also have in general smaller fingers for better pressing buttons without touching others, better eye to hand coordination, more sensitivity to high pitched sound effects and the lack of testosterone means we can be more calm in high stressfull situations
It is not guitar hero, there is a shitloat of stuff in play when you play ANY esports game. Detecting more colors (it is more common for women to see more colors than normal than less) can help a lot to distinguish characters from backgrounds in a place with crowded effects. Footsies is all about comparing distances.
It is not that it is "not politically correct" to point men in AVERAGE (key word here) have better reaction time but it is AT BEST being innocent to think that this is the only thing that matters.
I didn't get that from the article you linked at all. It seems to both contradict your point while also being only tangentially related to it:
Am I missing something?
Do you not see how this creates an environment that is inherently disadvantageous for minorities or those who are more likely to be targeted by antagonizers?
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Totally agree with everything you said.
The underlying issue that the vid says, and the kotaku article says, and the massive amount of tweets all say, is that there are too many trashy asshole dudes out there that will belittle women. If I had it my way I'd ban anyone of the sort from partaking in any sort of esport. Whether they're playing it or just watching it.
"Since women have faster auditory latencies" sounds like women in general can answer faster to sound effects, which in games means EVERYTHING
You're missing that he read "100ms" and stopped there, assuming that's the difference between men and women, rather than a lower bound for reaction times, with the actual difference in the range of 20ms (which is pretty much negligible for games).
Minorities are targeted regardless of gender and I never said it did not contribute just it was not the main reason.
And if you go beyond that, is dismissed as being due to the method of measurement rather than women actually being "slower".
^ Thanks guys, was wondering if the paper was just much more difficult to read than he had implied lol
I didn't say other minorities weren't targeted — in fact, that's why I used the word minorities and not strictly women. That said ... women are the clear minority in the professional gaming community.
What do you think the main reason is? Like others in this thread have already noted, the video sets up the premise that the cause is a lack of skill, not men ... but then kinda-sorta admits men are the problem — but not all the men, just a teeny tiny few douchebags! — while stressing that the majority of the community is openly welcoming. While I don't think antagonizers are the majority by any measure, this feels like a big overstatement of the efforts the community has put forth to encourage positive behaviour and be welcoming to women, and a trivialization of the negative behaviour that actually happens.
Women aren't inherently less skilled or less interested in video games. It's the same line of reasoning that says there aren't enough women in STEM simply because women aren't interested in those fields, when the reality is that women are less likely to be exposed to those fields/encouraged to explore them and are more likely to be pushed out even if they do enter them. Even when the issue is lack of interest, it's a direct result of exclusionary behaviour. It's not like elite male gamers were playing Street Fighter in the womb.
I didn't say other minorities weren't targeted — in fact, that's why I used the word minorities and not strictly women. That said ... women are the clear minority in the professional gaming community.
What do you think the main reason is? Like others in this thread have already noted, the video sets up the premise that the cause is a lack of skill, not men ... but then kinda-sorta admits men are the problem — but not all the men, just a teeny tiny few douchebags! — while stressing that the majority of the community is openly welcoming. While I don't think antagonizers are the majority by any measure, this feels like a big overstatement of the efforts the community has put forth to encourage positive behaviour and be welcoming to women, and a trivialization of the negative behaviour that actually happens.
Women aren't inherently less skilled or less interested in video games. It's the same line of reasoning that says there aren't enough women in STEM simply because women aren't interested in those fields, when the reality is that women are less likely to be exposed to those fields/encouraged to explore them and are more likely to be pushed out even if they do enter them. Even when the issue is lack of interest, it's a direct result of exclusionary behaviour. It's not like elite male gamers were playing Street Fighter in the womb.
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Pretty much.
"What keeps women from competing?"
"Well it's reductive and lazy to just say 'men'."
"Okay, so what is the cause?"
"A lack of skill."
"Why is that?"
"An unwelcoming environment for most female players to stay engaged and grow, largely thanks to men."
"...Soooo."
"Okay, so it's men."
Indeed. But don't let that spoil a perfectly good narrative that women are treated with impeccable respect and deference, and they're just physically inferior.
Frankly I read the thread title and my first thought was "If I was a woman there wouldn't be enough money in the world to make me put up with the sexist and horny assholes that make a significant part of eSports audience".
Your explanation as to why women aren't interested in pro gaming is that women aren't interested in pro gaming?
It is confusing until you understand the context, that is, men feeling slighted that women were saying that the reason they don't get into eSports is "men". In other words, the video is explaining to these men what these women mean when they say "men". This is made clear right at the end, when he says (paraphrasing) "sexism does come from men, so yes, the problem is men. don't say #notallmen, because, indeed, obviously it's not "all men", but it is definitely "men"."
And it might seem presumptuous of a man to explain what women mean, but then you remember that a significant part of the men he's addressing probably don't listen to anything women say anyway. Yes, that's where we're standing right now. :(
Interesting points.
Now explain why there aren't as many women pro players in games that don't require fast reaction times, like MtG.
I think skill is the main reason not because women are less naturally talented than men but because it is more socially acceptable for boys to spend their childhood playing video games. While more girls are playing games today it was less true a decade ago which is when the current esport players would have had to have started playing games. Esport careers are also incredibly short with most peaking in the early 20's so it's not like someone at 18 can just decide to become an Overwatch pro without a decade+ of competitive gaming experience as a child.
While I agree that having better reaction time is a boon to high level play, its not the end-all be-all. As the video goes over (very shortly I might add) most of high level play breaks down to pure skill/experience, most high level Quake players are in their late 20's to early 30's and even some of the more older players (Cooller/Toxjq) still push up a high elo and compete with the best, and this is when reaction time starts to degrade, not improve.
I see that It simply breaks down to this.
Most men, simply don't want to play/scrim against women for whatever reason, be it their not deemed "worthy" or many male pros feel like its a waste of time, or automatically dismiss women based on whatever reason. Iron sharpens iron and skill sharpens skill, if you never get the opportunity to play with the best you can never become the best. One of the reasons why im against splitting men/women teams (other than video games not being a purely physical sport). is because if women only play other women (of which their aren't that many) you never gain the experience of other high level players, and in respects to Quake these guys have been playing each other for 10+ years, these dudes are refined machines.
CS/CoD and other eSports-level games are probably filled with men/male teams who literally do nothing but scrim against each other over and over, day in and day out. this is not purely reaction time, its experience.
(note: this is from a more team-based FPS view, Fighting games differ to the reliance on reaction time)
Why do you think that is? Also, it seems like a huge leap of logic to assume the sole reason pro gamers are good at the games they play is because they played a lot of games in their childhood.
I think it's more likely a parent would buy a Playstation for a 5yr old boy than a 5yr old girl. Again less true now truer a decade ago. Pretty much any sport you have to start playing as a child? You don't see a footballer suddenly become a professional at 18 without playing all throughout his childhood. Don't see why esports would be any different.
If the answer isn't men it's wrong.
And oh boy if you think the answer is "biology" then that's not only very, definitely wrong then I'm afraid for every woman that goes around you.
And oh boy if you think the answer is "biology" then that's not only very, definitely wrong then I'm afraid for every woman that goes around you.
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User Banned (Permanent): Repeatedly downplaying the existence and impact of sexism, history of infractions.
E-sports are international. I've a hard time believing everywhere from america, to all of europe, to asia, to latin america, etc all have a highly toxic environment. edit: as for being competitive environments it is to be expected for them to be such when it comes to a competitive activity.