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Kendrick Lamar calls out white fan for rapping n-word onstage with him at concert
- Thread starter Xiaomi
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Really? The way to truly move on and heal racism is to have black people stop saying the n-word? Nothing else, huh?
Yeah because people made it a hashtag when others disagree with a racist generalization lol. I get that often people make that disagreement at places where it's kind of tone deaf and people throw around those generalizations because something upsetting happened to PoC, but the hashtag gets thrown around at times where disagreeing with the generalizing statement is valid as well.
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Seems kinda arbitrary biologically.
But not really my table so I'll step aside.
Bullfuckingshit. You were bitching about not being able to be a part of a conversation about whether or not black people should be saying nigga. You equated that exclusion to segregation. Think about that shit for a second. Not being invited to a discussion about whether or not black people should say nigga is segregation to you? Not everything is for you.
Yeah, like i said in my previous post, it was the first time i heard about this! I really didn't knew it wasn't okay before that!
This is basically why I am extremely blunt with other non black people on why they shouldn't say it. Maybe me telling you and explaining some American history if you want context for it is how you get to understand. People opposing its specific usage in this thread might convince a few people. And that's a good thing.
Basically, once you know that you should not use it and the gravity it holds it's on you to inform others about it. It's the only way things will improve.
In this specific case, this took place in the US. In Alabama of all places. White people know to not use it. I've had a good conversation with another poster here on what the intentions were, but it really comes down to this: she had every opportunity to know better. If this spreads the message then that is good. But it is terrible that the perceived duty of doing so falls to black folks despite being marginalized in the first place.
Apparently.
Uh-huh. That's exactly what I was saying.
Finnish here, there's plenty of slurs for sure. But I'm not sure anything is equilevant to "nigga". "Nekru" which is very offensive is a shorthand for "Neekeri" which comes from the word negro and has been considered offensive only from late 80's to the 90's, before that it was neutral word and even something black people here sometimes adviced of using instead of the slurs they got. It was even adviced to use that word in anti-racism education. There's still people who really want to hold on to the word, "it's just a word" "it's been used in school books" etc. But it has been replaced from products that had it like a candy "Neekerin suukko" that could be translated as "Negro's kiss" is now "Brunberg's kiss". "Neekeri" is sometimes also used about people who aren't black but still with foreign background, like Middle Eastern people. Then there's of course specific slurs for Finnish Kale, Middle Eestern people, Russians but that's not for this thread. But I don't think "Neekeri" is equilevant to "Nigger" and "Nekru" isn't to "Nigga". But there's definitely been long going discussions and changes how words are used and what is considered okay. I don't ever remember seeing any talks about using the word "nigga" when Finnish though.
Edit: Also the word "Neekeri" has been used almost exclusively by white people in music/entertainment here. Obviously because we don't have that much people of color in here, especially before 1990. There was only about 20 000 Afro-Finns living in here in the 2010. Not sure how it's right now.
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lol so many people jumping to conclusions.
Im not saying there is a right and wrong side in the whole thing but here are the points to consider.
1. Kendrick Lamarr is one of the hottest artist at the moment and his work's appeal reaches a large part of the public. His work can be considered mainstream popular music meaning rich, and poor, black and white people will be enjoying his work. This means one cannot the work to be totally contained in its completely political and social space because its a piece of mainstream popular work. Even if his songs are politcally and socially themed, most people who listen to his songs or go to his concert is really going to be thinking about political and social issues. Theyre probably mostly middle class kids who can afford the 200$ ticket price to attend such concerts.
2. Being such a mainstream artist with such a wide appeal, one would expect a kind of leeway or expectation that your work will be enjoyed by people who arent politically and racially conscious. When so many people enjoy your work can you really expect everyone to be self censoring themselves when they're singing or covering your work? Especially when the entire genre already has such a wide appeal and the word is used so commonly. I mean if you are going to use the word yourself you kind of have to also be responsible and acknowledge not everyone views everything through a racial lens and some insulated middle class non-person of color will not be that ept at navigating this sensitive issue. Its probably easy for them to be confused... youre not trying to insult anyone youre just trying to sing or rap the songs you enjoy and it takes mental effort and a degree of self control to deliberately omit a word thats quiet common in rap and hip hop. I mean does anyone here censor every swear word in a song when they sing it themselves?
We also live in a society where there is a generally preconceived notion that art shouldnt be censored. I mean yes, mainstream primetime commercial radios and TV censor songs but I think we can all agree that generally this notion holds true and most people dont censor music they play at bars, cafes and restaurants as long as its not a song full of F bombs every second word.
Im not saying there is a right and wrong side in the whole thing but here are the points to consider.
1. Kendrick Lamarr is one of the hottest artist at the moment and his work's appeal reaches a large part of the public. His work can be considered mainstream popular music meaning rich, and poor, black and white people will be enjoying his work. This means one cannot the work to be totally contained in its completely political and social space because its a piece of mainstream popular work. Even if his songs are politcally and socially themed, most people who listen to his songs or go to his concert is really going to be thinking about political and social issues. Theyre probably mostly middle class kids who can afford the 200$ ticket price to attend such concerts.
2. Being such a mainstream artist with such a wide appeal, one would expect a kind of leeway or expectation that your work will be enjoyed by people who arent politically and racially conscious. When so many people enjoy your work can you really expect everyone to be self censoring themselves when they're singing or covering your work? Especially when the entire genre already has such a wide appeal and the word is used so commonly. I mean if you are going to use the word yourself you kind of have to also be responsible and acknowledge not everyone views everything through a racial lens and some insulated middle class non-person of color will not be that ept at navigating this sensitive issue. Its probably easy for them to be confused... youre not trying to insult anyone youre just trying to sing or rap the songs you enjoy and it takes mental effort and a degree of self control to deliberately omit a word thats quiet common in rap and hip hop. I mean does anyone here censor every swear word in a song when they sing it themselves?
We also live in a society where there is a generally preconceived notion that art shouldnt be censored. I mean yes, mainstream primetime commercial radios and TV censor songs but I think we can all agree that generally this notion holds true and most people dont censor music they play at bars, cafes and restaurants as long as its not a song full of F bombs every second word.
As a European, your thoughts replicate my thoughts on the matter succinctly. I think this should be applied to all re-claimed words.
I do not understand this analogy. The only reason you should not say curse words in front of children is that you should not say curse words. By doing so in front of children, you do not only misbehave yourself, but work towards nurturing this kind of misbehaviour because the child may adopt you as a role model in that sense and copy your usage of it. Doubly so if the usage of the word leads to a notable reaction in the surrounding group of people. In this sense it is universally bad to use curese words, because it indicates a lack of temper and rationality, but I'd argue in principle, using curse words is only a minor offense and one not worthy talking about much. However, using them is bad in itself, not just because you are near children. Being near children only packs an extra burden on you to behave as well as you can to provide a good role model to young and learning citizens.
I always just miss the word when I'm singing along. Usually the swearing as well. I started listening when I was 14 and didn't swear in front of family so picked up the habit.
No I'm quite certain that I understood the following post:
to mean that non black people should refrain from talking about the use of the word amongst black people.
Did I get it right?
So let's say we accept that premise. Then, if someone raises the fact that a particular black person is ok with white people saying it, OR thinks that nobody should say it, your go-to retort is "that person isn't the arbiter of blackness"
Well who is? You?
All you've done is create a little island for your opinion whereby anybody who isn't black doesn't have a right to disagree, and anyone who is black and disagrees doesn't count because they don't represent all black people.
Owning people based on the color of their skin is also pretty arbitrary, biologically.
Yes the only way to heal racism is for white people to keep telling black people what to do.
I mean, not really. It's pretty simple. If you're not mixed with some kind of black then you can't say it
User Banned (Permanent): Placing blame and responsibility upon marginalised groups for racial tensions/racism. Ignoring historical context, previous ban for downplaying transphobia, account still in the junior phase
*start moving on.
I say in the sense that the debates over the use of the word are the cause of a lot of frayed tension between black people and non-black, and it's usually the people who are trying to be respectful that are made to feel frustrated and sidelined.
I say that as a white person who despises the word, would never use it in any context, and fully who acknowledges the centuries of abuse black people and people of colour have suffered.
I simply cannot see how argument that 'you can't say it, but we can' will bring us closer together and heal the seismic rift (that white people are very much the cause of, may I add).
I say in the sense that the debates over the use of the word are the cause of a lot of frayed tension between black people and non-black, and it's usually the people who are trying to be respectful that are made to feel frustrated and sidelined.
I say that as a white person who despises the word, would never use it in any context, and fully who acknowledges the centuries of abuse black people and people of colour have suffered.
I simply cannot see how argument that 'you can't say it, but we can' will bring us closer together and heal the seismic rift (that white people are very much the cause of, may I add).
im not arguing for white people being abe to say it and im not arguing for black people not being able to say it. calm your shit
I don't think there is anything as strong as the N-word used in French. By black people or not.
There is the old equivalent (wich might be where the N-word comes from since it's very close) but i've never heard that word used in a racial slur context outside of period movies. The only times i've heard it was to talk about books authors since it's also used to qualify a ghostwriter for some reason.
But i might just be because french people are less "words sensitive" than Americans. We never bleep anything. For us, a word is a word, the context is important more than the word itself.
We have in France but our rappers aren't using it like US rappers are using the N-word.
Flipping the word around from a slur to something like "brother/friend" has been a great achievement. But making it exclusive to only be used by black people AND featuring it in lyrics as often as it is, might not have been the best way to go.
You either take away it's power by normalizing it, or you choose to ban it/not use it. I also think intent is very important - and it doesn't seem like she had ill intent here.
Also, as a European it's a bit weird because we don't have the same baggage with the word (which doesn't mean the EU history doesn't have it's own troublesome past).
You either take away it's power by normalizing it, or you choose to ban it/not use it. I also think intent is very important - and it doesn't seem like she had ill intent here.
Also, as a European it's a bit weird because we don't have the same baggage with the word (which doesn't mean the EU history doesn't have it's own troublesome past).
Call me ignorant, but I'll never feel comfortable with anybody using the word. Every time I hear it just feels wrong no matters who's mouth it comes out of. Society has just got it stuck in my head that people who use it are either ignorant, evil or from the 19th century. Black people saying it is a paradox I don't think I'll ever wrap my head around no matter how many time its explained to me.
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If we're the cause of it, why not listen and comply? If I stab someone without just cause I won't tell them how the wound must heal.
A lot of people aren't thinking through their reactions in this thread.
I'm only touching on 2 examples.
1
Rappers had a ton of concerts where they were a majority of white fans.
If you try to argue this is a set up done in bad faith or a publicity stunt you aren't considering it took decades before 2 rappers finally decided to confront the issue.
As a publicity stunt it was necessary to raise awareness and foster discussion. As a set up someone is being brave enough to push back against their source of income. After what happened with the nfl you can't argue the risk didn't exist.
2
There are so many people explicitly or implicitly calling this woman a piece of shit.
You're being even more extreme than thought police or grammar nazis. You're attributing malice from repeating words.
Kendrick being a high profile public personality needed to use his popularity to raise awareness of the issue. But we aren't going to get anywhere if you argue that someone is inherently evil for repeating words. The intent behind the usage is what matters.
That woman along with everyone else except Kendrick was there to have fun. Don't blow up her actions out of proportion because it only undermines what you hope to achieve.
I'm only touching on 2 examples.
1
Rappers had a ton of concerts where they were a majority of white fans.
If you try to argue this is a set up done in bad faith or a publicity stunt you aren't considering it took decades before 2 rappers finally decided to confront the issue.
As a publicity stunt it was necessary to raise awareness and foster discussion. As a set up someone is being brave enough to push back against their source of income. After what happened with the nfl you can't argue the risk didn't exist.
2
There are so many people explicitly or implicitly calling this woman a piece of shit.
You're being even more extreme than thought police or grammar nazis. You're attributing malice from repeating words.
Kendrick being a high profile public personality needed to use his popularity to raise awareness of the issue. But we aren't going to get anywhere if you argue that someone is inherently evil for repeating words. The intent behind the usage is what matters.
That woman along with everyone else except Kendrick was there to have fun. Don't blow up her actions out of proportion because it only undermines what you hope to achieve.
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I'm not sure about this. If the words are in the lyrics then she isn't actually saying them out of her own head, just singing the song as it was made? Hardly reprimandable, and just feels like she was trapped, to be honest.
In case you want to know for several languages: The exact word "Nigger" (capitalisation because it is a noun which is capitalised in German) exists in German, with the same meaning: A strongly deragotary name for black people, used to describe them disrespectful and even in ways questioning their status as humans. There are also slightly less aggressive, yet still definitely to-be-avoided names like "Neger" or "Mohr". It is uncommon to hear black people use "Nigger" in German though, so that's definitely a difference between the English and the German word.
Yea but some dude whipping out his "23&Me" test results and arguing his right to say it because of his 1/36 mix while looking like me wouldn't fly, right?
That brings up an important point though, is simply using a word out of context racist? If I sang along to M.A.A.D City, would saying the full lines make me racist, even though that's just the song? I personally don't think so, to be racist there has to be harmful intent behind it or at the very least a harmful implication, verbatim singing along to a harmless song shouldn't count as being racist.
I think it's a horrible word, whether it's -er or -a, I don't understand why anyone would want to use it. Obviously not the same thing exactly given the history of the word, but I wouldn't call my female friends bitches or whores, even in a friendly banter jokey way, they're not nice terms.
Agreed. I still can't get used to hearing it in person when I'm around my cousins. It's hard for me to associate it with anything positive, even if we've reclaimed it as our own. Then again I didn't grow up in America, so I'm coming from a different perspective (my father hated it too, though).
Simplest solution is for rappers to not include them in songs but we seem to want to go the complicated end around that will never work. Maybe asking rappers to stop using the word in their songs is also an impossible task. It seems to be a problem that will never have a solution.
Nope.
Acting like you have a right to say it when others stop you and tell you how uncomfortable it makes them? Possibly.
This is the first time he cared about it, weird. Saw countless videos on white people on stage with him rapping this song with every word.
Still, I wouldn't got to such concert. Like, people are supposed to sing along but also leave blanks when n-word appears. Seems weird.
But the audience do not care:
Still, I wouldn't got to such concert. Like, people are supposed to sing along but also leave blanks when n-word appears. Seems weird.
But the audience do not care:
Where exactly did I mention other black people being okay with non-black people using it? I wrote that people need to stop thinking just because a rapper put nigga in a song doesn't mean that all black people think it is okay for non-black people to use. Also, you seem to think that because a rapper puts nigga in a song, that is somehow an endorsement of non-black people using it.
Then what is the segregation that you were bitching about here? It's amusing that you think I am not calm simply because I pointed out that you are full of all kinds of shit.
Do you actually think someone using a curse word is misbehavior that warrants judging their character as less than anyone else? I would argue that the truth is closer to that curse words are, perhaps much more aptly, "adult words" and thus, are simply reserved for adults to use in the same way as any other adult thing. Curse words can be used in non-temper and rational fashions, whether in casual language or as emphasis, so I'd have to disagree that they're some sort of reflection of poor behavior. I'd argue that not using these adult words around children is because, well, they're not adults.
World is moreso based on perception; what people see on the outside.
It'll be a long road before society can move past that.
User Banned(3 days): Bad faith argument and dismissing historical context
Kendrick Lamar is the fucking best there is right now, but it is actually in the song lyrics, so fuck that shit I'm singing it. Same with Money for Nothing and any other song with a slur. It's a slur in the context of a song lyric. If you don't want people to sing it, don't write it.
You will never hear or read those words (or the Spanish version of it, which I don't think I've ever even pronounced since I've never heard it in a song) coming out from me in any other situation, those are heavy fucking loaded words with so much pain and hardships behind them, but a lyric is a lyric. And I say this after reading the whole thread, so to some of you: consider me whatever you want to consider me. My spirit is at ease regarding this.
You will never hear or read those words (or the Spanish version of it, which I don't think I've ever even pronounced since I've never heard it in a song) coming out from me in any other situation, those are heavy fucking loaded words with so much pain and hardships behind them, but a lyric is a lyric. And I say this after reading the whole thread, so to some of you: consider me whatever you want to consider me. My spirit is at ease regarding this.
User Banned (3 Days): Arguing in bad faith and ignoring historical context
Nigga isn't a slur. That's the whole reason it got popularized because trying to reclaim the n word is a tough pill to swallow so people like yourself sanitized it. When any black American chooses to actually use the n word they use it with the actual baggage it comes with. A lot more and more black youth do not use the term nigga with that baggage which is why increasingly they will give a pass to their closest non black friends using the term.
You elderly folk created a situation that was designed to become a more accepted term over time.
To the people who might not understand why this is a problem or what the message Kendrick might be trying to get at with this, let me try to take a stab at it:
It is not okay for anyone who is not black to say the n-word, period. This is just a fact of society, and I won't go into why that is the case, but I know what you're thinking and no, that isn't racist. People of all races consume media that might have the n-word in it, and by no means is it problematic for you to be hearing it. However, it is incredibly important that you should know the implications of hearing the word and understand the history and context by which it has evolved into how it is used today.
Kendrick, by inviting a white person onto stage is at the very least acknowledging that his music and message are able to be, and are, not only to be enjoyed by black people. I think he's even celebrating diversity in audience by doing so. But by having this white person use the n-word without a second thought makes a clear message that this individual and non-black society do not understand the use of the word, the implications of its existence, and why it's so important. Pointing this out is a way to exemplify this lack of thought, and hopefully make non-black people seek the knowledge of the n-word's importance; to think outside of just themselves and be aware of the plight of black society without having to be told to do so first.
I think ending the message by acknowledging the wrong and offering explanation instead of outrage is an important lesson we all could learn about correction and forgiveness. A lot of people are unaware or ignorant by way of obliviousness rather than ill-will, and it's important to understand that when someone is wrong, it is still possible to educate and co-exist instead of dismissing the entirety of the culprit.
Anyone who thinks she should have been told to censor beforehand is missing the point: it should already be a part of your societal understanding that you have to censor yourself. Anyone who thinks black people need to stop saying the n-word simply do not have the understanding and awareness as I've previously mentioned. You would never say that absolutely every human on earth has to stop saying curse words because children could pick it up. Instead, you learn in society to self censor; that you do not say curse words in front of children. This is no different. So instead of reacting against the word, the people who use it, or whether or not you can use it: step outside of your own world and learn about something that is important to a lot of other peoples' world.
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