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Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
motherfuckers actually suggesting to keep our cool when discussing racist trying to get us shot by cops or looking to try to do it themselves

Moderate Dems aren't allies.

Then you must have a pretty loose definition of the word "accurate". I want all the things PlayALLTheGames wanted. I just think his tantrum is off-putting in the same way a neckbeard telling me all the ways he is a nice guy is off-putting. You guys aren't playing to win. It's the same reason so many on the alt-left turned against Bernie and his supporters by constantly alleging both were sexist for campaigning against Hillary. When Bernie lost, those same voters said fuck this and stayed home. That, in no small part, helped Trump get elected.

The rationalization is "hey, we called you sexist for not supporting our candidate but it's better to be called sexist than let Trump win, right?" and those voters basically decided, "I don't care."

The Far-Left will never be satisfied no matter what. "I will still home instead of voting for HER". Okay, now you got Trump

I don't understand you people. All you got to do is VOTE Democrat straight ticket. Who gives a shit about nit picking stuff, just for D

We didn't stay home, not in any great numbers. I personally went and voted a straight Dem ticket, including Hillary for president. Trump is not on us. In fact, I think most of progressive Dems would have preferred to run a candidate with far-fewer scandals and far less baggage than Clinton, someone likeable and charismatic and with a history of strong progressive stances... don't put this shit at our feet.

And with this attitude, Republicans will likely hold on to Congress, and DJT will get reelected. Your purity quest does more damage than moderate Democrats.

Again, I'll vote a straight Dem ticket in 2018/2020, because I'm a grown adult who realizes that the lesser of two evils is still more desirable, even in my strong blue state. That doesn't mean that I'll sit down and shut up about how shitty moderates are when I encounter racism in my daily life, when my children encounter racism in their daily lives, and moderates are angry that we are calling them out on their lack of basic human empathy.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Well, in my opinion, she ran a shitty campaign that led to a very small margin for error despite getting the popular vote by 3 million votes.
Padding the numbers in NY and Cali would do that. She didn't play the Game of Thrones correctly and because of that we all suffered. (When I say we, I don't mean just Democrats I mean the whole planet)

As far as moderate Democrats, who cares what they think as long as they vote D. Seriously? Because voting is the only thing that matters end of the day. If they don't align with every single on of your issues should not matter if they still vote D at the end of the day. They are your alley in vote only, and come next election that's all you need them to do...vote Democrat
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,621
Maybe the moderate left should just make the following admission:

We don't have strong convictions about healthcare, gender pay gap, racism, immigration, the military industrial complex, education, helping the poor, police brutality. We think there are issues there but they're not a huge deal and America is still the greatest country in the world and the "far left" is overreacting to how bad our problems are. So if the right-wing passes the laws they want to, we'll deal with it and we have to find ways to compromise but it won't be the end of the world.

I think part of the problem with this discussion is that there's no universally agreed-upon group of who is the "moderate left." Because when I think of moderate/centrist Democrats, I think of the Ralph Northams and Doug Joneses and Conor Lambs of the party. The people you're describing here sound more like moderate possibly Trump-lapsed Republicans or "independents" with no political convictions whatsoever.

Moderate Democrats do us more damage than the right. So nah, he can beat it.

I know you've been called out a hundred times for this already, but one thing I want to add to the dogpile: you're completely neglecting how much more malleable moderate Democrats are to liberal causes than Republicans are. Look at virtually anything from marijuana legalization to gay marriage to prison reform to campaign finance to Medicare for All and the Affordable Care Act. Moderate Dems can be pushed to the left on these issues without even being need to be replaced in office. Hell, we're seeing it happen right now. It's not like every co-sponsor of Bernie's Medicare for All bill was swept into office in some wave of progressive Democrats that never happened.

Jon Tester and Heidi Heitkmap are centrist Democrats who have fought to defend the ACA despite being in deep-red states. You can argue that their healthcare positions stop there and don't go far left enough (e.g. Medicare for All, single payer, et al.) but what you can't argue is that any Republican senator in their position would do anything better or, in your words, do any less damage.

There is no real far left in America. That was cut out of the system 50 years ago.
What was the viable far-left movement in America that died with JFK/LBJ's presidencies?
 

Branu

Banned
Feb 7, 2018
1,029
As far as I'm concerned, you cannot he leftist if you are only striving for economic justice over social justice. Vice versa, too. Both economic justice and social justice have to be addressed at the same time since both are inextricably linked.

Agreed. I give a side eye to anyone that claims they're socially liberal and economically conservative.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
He would be a moderate in today's polarized environment.

Not really. Even twords the end he was still pushing important policies. Sure by today's scale he's closer to the center, but he helped push the party further left by passing liberal polices.

If you look at the voting records of politicians, Dems haven't moved all that left. The right are the ones who've jumped off the deep end.
 
Oct 25, 2017
504
Here's a thought, moderates ITT, actually talk about the issues you are moderate about instead of being vague, you wanna have a critical discussion so badly, then let's actually do it:
logo-dark@2x.png

Seconded.

What issues are you guys moderate on?

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/2155

Totally in favor of S.2155, which passed with 15(?) Democrats voting Yea.

My work exists to benefit the under-served as the households I am responsible for represent predominately LMI (low-to-moderate income, as defined by county) areas. I manage a credit union in a large metropolitan area.

The regulations, while noble in theory, made the cost of regulatory compliance so steep that smaller institutions were saying "thanks, but no thanks" and left the majority of the lending bucket to the big megabanks (who could afford the regulatory cost due to economy of scale). And we all know what a great job Wells Fargo did, right?? Do I even need to link the multitude of fuckups they've made? And Wells (and similar banks of that size) didn't get that big on their own. They got that big by swallowing up all the smaller guys.

I worked for institutions that would now have survived with changes like the ones here-- instead we inadvertently created "too big to fail" because the smaller institutions just couldn't compete.

Now, this will be glossed over completely because there's much more low hanging fruit than having that "critical" discussion.
 

Prance

Banned
Apr 28, 2018
85
This implies that "moderate Democrats" all believe those things. "Moderate" doesn't innately mean you are halfway between two opposing and extreme sides on any and all issues.

More pragmatically, disregard all the complaints about 'tone policing' and such, the reality is you craft policy around the electorate you have, not the one you hope might show up if Jesus and Obama teamed up once every decade. The far left has no great power in this country because far left people don't show up in numbers to swing elections.

PlayALLTheGames is like those on the far right who are SO used to attacking the left's boogeymen, they don't understand how to deal with moderates. So his immaturity and inexperience is causing him to use attacks reserved for the far right on moderate leftists because he is too ignorant to be able to differentiate between the two.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,389
I'm not a moderate, but when I discuss issues with right leaning friends and family (that are at least somewhat reasonable) I don't start with my own thoughts. I start with theirs and try to nudge them towards my thinking.

I don't expect PoC to do this, but as a progressive white man with a highly conservative family I'm not going to get anywhere with them if I don't approach subjects in a manner that they can understand and relate with.
Actually speak up instead of being soft about it. Stop caring about hurting the fragile feelings of conservatives.
 

Deleted member 2533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
I've seen some Destiny debate videos and the ones calling for an ethnostate always say that they want universal healthcare but only for white people. They absolutely do co-opt progressive ideas for their own purposes and we shouldn't let them get away with that.

Everytime I hear people talk about "the Nordic model" or "how great Sweden is," I always have to wait to see if they bring up "the problems with open borders and refugees..."
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
I'm not a moderate, but when I discuss issues with right leaning friends and family (that are at least somewhat reasonable) I don't start with my own thoughts. I start with theirs and try to nudge them towards my thinking.

I don't expect PoC to do this, but as a progressive white man with a highly conservative family I'm not going to get anywhere with them if I don't approach subjects in a manner that they can understand and relate with.
I think the difference most people fail to understand is that you can be pragmatic but also firm in your convictions.

It's why something like "I'm moderate because I support incremental progress" is a bit of a strawman. For example, I would eventually like the country to move to a single-payer healthcare system. I'm pragmatic enough to recognize that the Affordable Care Act represented a significant step towards that, even if it can be dramatically improved upon. But I'm also idealistic enough to recognize that we can do better. There were leftists who wanted to burn the ACA down before it passed every time it hit some roadblock, and I do not count myself among them.
 

deathsaber

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,099
Nah, TC. You are fine. Cultivate your own beliefs and vote accordingly.

I consider myself a moderate, generally vote democratic, hate pretty much everything Trump does and stands for, but often find a lot of the far liberal left to be quite embarrassing. and for some of them to say we as moderates are the problem - LOL! I did my part, voted for Hillary (despite not being thrilled at all) because it was the ONLY choice to not get Trump in office (far bigger EVIL than anything Hillary would have represented), and you better believe I will vote for whatever democrat that has best chance to win in 2020. But what about the "Bernie or Bust" crew? Or those who voted for Jill Stein or something (or didn't vote at all)- they got more to answer for than anything I'd argue its the far left that's empowered and galvanized the far/alt right more than anything, and has them literally doubling down on clearly 3rd Reich-ian shit all in the name of "sticking it to them liberals".

And honestly, the true reality is there are more people like you and me than there are the extremists- its just that they are the ones you will always see "fighting their fight" on the internet forums/comments. So, stick to your guns, and keep on doing and thinking for yourself despite all the talking heads, and most importantly voting for what matters to you.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
I'm pro gun but advocate sensible gun control laws. I'm also personally against abortion but think it should legal and easy to access for those who need it.

You may fire when ready.

YOU FREAKIN MODERATE!

Just kidding. You will find a sizable portion of the left are pro-gun too because they think that any kind of strict laws will disproportionately affect minorities adversely and they believe that minorities should be able to protect themselves.

Leftists would be fine with your stance on abortion, as well. In fact, I'm sure there are quite a few who hold the same exact view.
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
What was the viable far-left movement in America that died with JFK/LBJ's presidencies?

A little after, but communists, socialists being destroyed via McCarthy, and many minority based groups targeted and disenfranchised by the Nixon administration. I don't know how viable they were at the time, but they were definitely killed then, and that stunted any viablity that could have in the future.
 

Prance

Banned
Apr 28, 2018
85
Nice moving of the goal posts. Hillary did get more votes, but because the electoral college does not represent the will of the people adequately, she lost. What narrative are you actually trying to craft? Just say it instead of being disingenuous.

Moving goalposts? She needed more votes to win. Specifically votes in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Hillary got 3 million more votes than Trump. She needed even more to win.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,389
What in tarnation are you talking about? Yes she is white, but she had aWith a history of accomplishments that bettered this country. This is not saying that she hasn't said some racist shit. But she was far more qualified than her competition who's biggest accomplishment was somehow bankrupting a casino, where literally the only purpose is people coming in and giving you money. It was absolutely a result of the EC once again not representing the views of the majority.
 

Molecule

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,691
I agree with the video.

I vote 100% D

I've been interested in politics for a little bit now but I'm losing interest because people are so intolerant and are so quick to demonize anyone that doesn't think like them. It's sad but what can you do?
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
I know you've been called out a hundred times for this already, but one thing I want to add to the dogpile: you're completely neglecting how much more malleable moderate Democrats are to liberal causes than Republicans are. Look at virtually anything from marijuana legalization to gay marriage to campaign finance to Medicare for All to the Affordable Care Act. Moderate Dems can be pushed to the left on these issues without even being need to be replaced in office. Hell, we're seeing it happen right now. It's not like every co-sponsor of Bernie's Medicare for All bill was swept into office in some wave of progressive Democrats that never happened.

Jon Tester and Heidi Heitkmap are centrist Democrats who have fought to defend the ACA despite being in deep-red states. You can argue that their healthcare interests stop there and don't go far left enough (e.g. Medicare for All, single payer, et al.) but what you can't argue is that any Republican senator in their position would advocate for anything better.

On the flip side, they are also more malleable to conservative causes. Particularly with regards to economic and divisive social issues. So it's a mixed bag. Yes, practically speaking we need moderate Dems in purple and red states where progressives wouldn't be electable, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't call them out on their bullshit and inactivity on social/economic justice.
 

Prance

Banned
Apr 28, 2018
85
What in tarnation are you talking about? Yes she is white, but she had aWith a history of accomplishments that bettered this country. This is not saying that she hasn't said some racist shit. But she was far more qualified than her competition who's biggest accomplishment was somehow bankrupting a casino, where literally the only purpose is people coming in and giving you money. It was absolutely a result of the EC once again not representing the views of the majority.

That doesn't change the fact she needed more votes to win.
 
OP
OP
FriedConsole

FriedConsole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,187
That's because your views definitely do not align with Obama's. You've yet to really show that they do at all in this thread.

I mentioned Obamacare which I support which isn't good enough for the far left. I am for a progressive tax system but I don't believe we need a equality based Marxist system.

Basically I believe in social programs and not Marxism.

Let's not get into a boring semantic debate about Marxism. You know what I mean. Not siezing the means of production Marxism.
 

Kitad

Banned
Feb 15, 2018
164
This video is on point. The problem with today's politics is that everything has to be exactly what we want or its worthless. But politics is about making broad alliances with people who may not share all of your views, but where you may still find a pathway to walk together.

The MLK quote is particularly funny. Not only because of how out of context it is, but also because of the fact that MLK was also accused on his time of being a pandering moderate.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
Agreed. I give a side eye to anyone that claims they're socially liberal and economically conservative.
As you well should. Like Deepwater said, you can't be socially liberal and fiscally conservative. It's a contradiction.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/2155

Totally in favor of S.2155, which passed with 15(?) Democrats voting Yea.

My work exists to benefit the under-served as the households I am responsible for represent predominately LMI (low-to-moderate income, as defined by county) areas. I manage a credit union in a large metropolitan area.

The regulations, while noble in theory, made the cost of regulatory compliance so steep that smaller institutions were saying "thanks, but no thanks" and left the majority of the lending bucket to the big megabanks (who could afford the regulatory cost due to economy of scale). And we all know what a great job Wells Fargo did, right?? Do I even need to link the multitude of fuckups they've made? And Wells (and similar banks of that size) didn't get that big on their own. They got that big by swallowing up all the smaller guys.

I worked for institutions that would now have survived with changes like the ones here-- instead we inadvertently created "too big to fail" because the smaller institutions just couldn't compete.

Now, this will be glossed over completely because there's much more low hanging fruit than having that "critical" discussion.
The only reason I'd gloss over this is because I'm not too familiar with something like that. If it helps people, and not just a certaint segment of it, I'm for it.
Everytime I hear people talk about "the Nordic model" or "how great Sweden is," I always have to wait to see if they bring up "the problems with open borders and refugees..."
I've never even thought about it. Although, I usually hear about it from Kirblar or Entrement and I highly doubt they're racists.
 

AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,602
Nashville
I agree with this. I have a moderate to high income level so I am taxed really hard and it hurts. I feel it, but I'd prefer to have universal Healthcare if it means I won't have to worry about a sudden Issue costing thousands (even though I have a health plan) .

My issue is with the far left leaning into socialism. I am still a believer in capitalism and with its issues its the best system we have. Trickle down is bullshit, but I have zero problems with people getting filthy rich. At all. I work my ass off to get the stuff I want, to grow my business, etc. I think some people want their iPhones and 4 bed huge houses without seeking career or education growth. Without reinventing themselves if needed.


That's exactly how I see myself at this moment in time.

But that's not filthy rich. That's the American Dream and middle class thinking. And the lean into what you call socialism is not so no one has a huge house, or is not "filthy" rich. It's largely to ensure a basic net for everyone. Millionaires and billionaires can continue to thrive, but the cost to them is that everyone else has basic needs met, things like healthcare and food. The rich are unlikely to see a difference in lifestyle if they are worth 10 million instead of 12, and the filthy rich worth billions they laugh the whole way.
 

Prance

Banned
Apr 28, 2018
85
We didn't stay home, not in any great numbers. I personally went and voted a straight Dem ticket, including Hillary for president. Trump is not on us. In fact, I think most of progressive Dems would have preferred to run a candidate with far-fewer scandals and far less baggage than Clinton, someone likeable and charismatic and with a history of strong progressive stances... don't put this shit at our feet.

I voted a straight Dem ticket too. That doesn't change the fact that we need more than progressives and the far-left to win an election.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,693
Like I said, your views don't align with Obama's there. Are you trying to say Obamacare was Obama's end goal on healthcare? He wanted to push for much more and couldnt. He has made speeches in the past about the benefits of Universal Health Care, which you seem to think is a bit too left for you.

The only person who thinks your views align with Obama's is you and that's why your repeated attempts to call him a moderate are being shot down in this thread as nonsense.
 

Kitad

Banned
Feb 15, 2018
164
Think about it, the day the left starts treating moderates as their enemies, then the right will take them as their allies.

If you have a religious type who is against abortion but who would agree to expand the social net. Would it be more adventageous to have that person backing the right or backing the left?
 

Prance

Banned
Apr 28, 2018
85
Go ahead. It would prove my point nicely.

This represents the biggest failure of ALL far-left posters on ERA and Twitter. You'd rather be right and lose. Well, you got what you wanted in the last election. American is racist. You were right. Now, how's it feel losing the Supreme Court for a generation and the presidency to the right?

Otherwise, stop deluding yourself that the right-wing is anything but the biggest threat to modern America, start treating that threat fucking seriously and quit acting like progressives/liberals are "just as bad" or "as much part of the problem" as the lunatics who want to turn this country into a theocratic, fascist, white supremacist shit-hole.

Are you sure you're in the right thread? Who's talking about the right-wing? This is about the moderate left.
 

SuperBonk

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
354
I consider myself pretty far left on a lot of issues but moderate on others. I think people need to realize that ok. We're all unique individuals with different perspectives and can't be expected to agree on everything 100%. And while I do think more people should listen to each other, I'm not going to change my core beliefs based on random insults on the internet.

Just listen, learn, and try to do the best you can. And if someone calls you a disgusting moderate so what? You don't need validation from strangers.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
C2Pr6bPUQAAV9we.jpg

"Incremental progress"

Malcom X agrees although his disdain is for all white liberals than just the moderates:

Malcolm X: "The white liberal is the worst enemy to America, and the worst enemy to the black man. Let me explain what I mean by the white liberal. In America there is no such thing as Democrat or Republican anymore. In America you have liberals and conservatives."

"The only people living in the past who think in terms of I'm a Democrat or Republican, is the American Negro. He's the one that runs around bragging about party affiliation. He's the one that sticks to the Democrat or sticks to the Republican."

"But white people are divided into two groups, liberals and conservative. The Democrats who are conservative, vote with the Republicans who are conservative. The Democrats who are liberal vote with the Republicans that are liberal."

"The white liberal aren't white people who are for independence, who are moral and ethical in their thinking. They are just a faction of white people that are jockeying for power. The same as the white conservative is a faction of white people that are jockeying for power."

"They are fighting each other for power and prestige, and the one that is the football in the game is the Negro, 20 million black people. A political football, a political pawn, an economic football, and economic pawn. A social football, a social pawn."

"The liberal elements of whites are those who have perfected the art of selling themselves to the Negro as a friend of the Negro. Getting sympathy of the Negro, getting the allegiance of the Negro, and getting the mind of the Negro. Then the Negro sides with the white liberal, and the white liberal use the Negro against the white conservative."

"So that anything that the Negro does is never for his own good, never for his own advancement, never for his own progress, he's only a pawn in the hands of the white liberal."

"The worst enemy that the Negro have is this white man that runs around here drooling at the mouth professing to love Negros, and calling himself a liberal, and it is following these white liberals that has perpetuated problems that Negros have."

"If the Negro wasn't taken, tricked, or deceived by the white liberal then Negros would get together and solve our own problems."

"I only cite these things to show you that in America the history of the white liberal has been nothing but a series of trickery designed to make Negros think that the white liberal was going to solve our problems."

"Our problems will never be solved by the white man. The only way that our problem will be solved is when the black man wakes up, clean himself up, stand on his own feet and stop begging the white man, and take immediate steps to do for ourselves the things that we have been waiting on the white man to do for us. Once we do for self then we will be able to solve our own problems'"
 

Prance

Banned
Apr 28, 2018
85
It doesn't change the fact that she's been treated as a boogeyman for decades and still is even now which helps republicans in an era where a sizable portion of America would look at her and Trump's history and state "both sides are the same."

That's why we needed as many votes as possible to win. Obama was treated like a boogeyman. The next Democrat candidate will be too. We need as many votes as possible to win. And yes, that means kissing all the babies. Even the moderate ones.
 

Ortix

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,438
That sketch wasn't funny but I do agree with it - to a certain point. If your vote isn't automatically dem at this point I don't consider you "moderate" at all, and it's hard to reason with such people. People ripping on Clinton supporters because "they're centrist" on the other hand is beyond dumb and they're causing more harm than good. Same for those who consider anyone who disagrees with them even a little bit on 1 subject "the enemy". It's fine to disagree, and I'm not saying you should just let it rest, but there's better ways of trying to convince them you're right than shoving them all in the same group as Trump supporters and shouting at them about your own superiority.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,621
On the flip side, they are also more malleable to conservative causes. Particularly with regards to economic and divisive social issues. So it's a mixed bag. Yes, practically speaking we need moderate Dems in purple and red states where progressives wouldn't be electable, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't call them out on their bullshit and inactivity on social/economic justice.

Sure you can push them to be better on social justice and economic justice. But the point is they can be pushed to the left, sometimes successfully, while Republicans are exponentially less likely to be swayed on those same matters.

I don't know how you reconcile "moderate Democrats do more damage than the right" with "we need moderate Dems in purple and red states" though. :lol Like does this guy:

Governor_Race-Deportation_Bus_14140-780x520.jpg


Just compromise guys.

A Republican, certainly not a moderate Democrat, strike you as less harmful to immigrants than, say, any red-state Dem that has backed the Dream Act (or similar legislation)?
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
I mentioned Obamacare which I support which isn't good enough for the far left. I am for a progressive tax system but I don't believe we need a equality based Marxist system.

Basically I believe in social programs and not Marxism.

Let's not get into a boring semantic debate about Marxism. You know what I mean. Not siezing the means of production Marxism.
Would you support universal healthcare?

And I still want to know what you think constitutes the extreme left. Stop dodging the question.
 

Hokahey

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,288
Here's a thread on why so many switched from dem to trump (and vice versa): https://www.resetera.com/threads/vo...evels-of-economic-anxiety.14112/#post-2802314

I'm sure Kirblar will be more than willing to post more studies that I certainly don't have on hand. PM him if you must, or Google it.

I see nothing in there regarding racism, unless you equate immigration concerns automatically with racism. I can certainly understand a connection there but that is far from definitive.
 

Menelaus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,682
User Warned: Inflammatory Generalizations
The video is fucking great, highlights the problem with extremism politics (both sides are guilty), and PoliERA will hate it because although they claim to hate purity tests, PURITY TEST.
 

EasyRoad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
340
That man had his legacy ripped up by a racist shit stain in about a year. Is that really where you want to be in the middle of?
When I mentioned "self-defeating" this is one of the many things I was referring to. Just because one orange fuck won an election doesn't mean everything is lost. When you think this way what you are actually doing is throwing 8 years of history in the garbage. Is that really the best course of action?

We had 8 years of a great presidency and we can have 8 more if we fight for it instead of attacking each other over perceived purity